Separating Games from their Creators - Kingdom Come: Deliverance

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BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
Which brings us back to the evidence for his "garbage views" and i still have not seen more then a few retweets and other social media drama but nothing tangible he has said or done.
Sure, because you continue to dismiss everything as "social media drama" instead of actually looking what is actually presented to you. I'm not surprised at this point.
To be fair, that probably depends on which European countries/regions you're talking about. Some parts of Europe are more conservative/right-leaning than others. But if you're talking about Western Europe and Scandinavia, certainly.
True, in my country the only part that even remotely resembles Vavra's views is literally a neo-nazi one (and i mean literally neo-nazi, with several of its former members literally having swastika tattoos and having been arrested for hate crimes) and has around 0.2% of votes, thankfully.
 

Raven117

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,112
Only speaking for the UK but the history is entirely different. William Wilberforce abolished slavery in the 1800s. In terms of modern times, British history is colonial and significant immigration took place from the 50s onwards.

There is, of course, a myriad of rights and wrongs amongst all that but there was never a significant culture of supremacy acted out in the UK, in terms of segregation. Crimes were committed overseas.
Such a delicate way to put this. HAHA. I laughed out loud. (we can talk about the culture of supremacy against ethic groups as further divided by religion if you want).
 

Eorl

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,250
Australia
I remember hearing about this at least two years ago.
It was more his views on why there were no persons of colour in the game and that fact of the matter that, according to him, there is no documented inhabitants in the area that they are recreating that can be historically recreated authentically. That's the current crux is that this game is being based on recorded history to build a world where NPCs act like they actually did back then, that the game offers authenticity to the gameplay that you have access to.

According to Vavra there were actually some persons of colour documented however they were only listed as slaves, and that is presumably difficult to recreate a proper representation of their backstory, what they'd wear, how they'd talk. This is apparently the basis they are going for and why the issue is at hand, though for me personally I feel it's a perfectly okay game as we have yet to see any evidence of political agenda in the game pointing to racism or the likes. Until that is proven I can separate game from political talking points.
 

Frostman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,187
Great Britain
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I’m sure the game will be good. I’ve set my expectations low. And I know going into it (if I play it) what I envision I’ll be immersed in - a European fantasy and vision made by developers that catered to their desires of depicting what they believed happened in that specific time period and place. It’s their art, they don’t have to justify it. At the same time, having someone divide their audience is classless and careless, but they seem to be fine with it. And the rest of the team has done nothing to say or do otherwise, so I figure I should go into it thinking they probably believe the same GG/MRA/racist shit, or don’t feel comfortable speaking against it.
I mean, your Vávra points are perfectly fair, of course. But I’m not a fan of the dismissal of the diversity or the depiction of their own history.
This isn’t their view. This isn’t medieval fantasy (bar of course the story). This is them recreating their own history, to a pin drop, with the help of a number of historians specialised in this time period. Vávra is mouthy, but that’s doesn’t take away from the achievement of making an historically accurate game in an area not previously investigated. This team deserves that praise.

On the point about diversity, and the only point I’ve made in this thread, and that is how diverse this game actually is. I’m thinking on the spot, but I personally haven’t played a game this gen with such a diverse collection of backgrounds as this will have. And I’m sure this statement would stay true to 90% of the people on this forum, including you. There’s Bohemians, Germans, Swiss and many more within this game, and within the time frame of this game they were very much different (they still are). Vávra cannot take from that either. Because he’s a dick doesn’t mean the game is less diverse, as that’s clearly not fair to the team and their creation.
 
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IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,575
Vice City
^yeah, that's a pretty whitewashed way of brushing over britain's long and deep history with white supremacy. "crimes were committed overseas" indeed.

relevant to this thread though: today, the SPLC put out a write-up: The Alt-Right is Killing People

Two formative moments helped breed a young generation of far-right activists who were raised on the internet: the murder of the unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin and Gamergate, a controversy where female game developers and journalists were systematically threatened with rape and death. These events magnified the belief that white identity is under attack by multiculturalism and political correctness.

Gradual indoctrination has become increasingly easy, particularly within social media where tech companies long ignored the warning signs that their platforms were contributing to the radicalization of lethal far-right extremists.

Unfortunately, punctuated violence is expected to continue. The alt-right is redoubling its efforts at youth recruitment, intensifying its rhetoric, and calling for radical, individual action.
2017 was their most violent year, and this only looks to worsen. but hey, it's just social media drama y'all, let's respect everyone's opinion and enjoy video games and meet somewhere in the middle! /boogie
 

flyinj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,452
^yeah, that's a pretty whitewashed way of brushing over britain's long and deep history with white supremacy. "crimes were committed overseas" indeed.

relevant to this thread though: today, the SPLC put out a write-up: The Alt-Right is Killing People



2017 was their most violent year, and this only looks to worsen. but hey, it's just social media drama y'all, let's respect everyone's opinion and enjoy video games and meet somewhere in the middle! /boogie
This is just a US problem, it's different in Europe.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
3,812
So if I'm understanding this, he is racist and was hiding it with a BS "historical accuracy" claim? Was this found out from the beginning or was this recent?
I think the nonpresence of PoC in the game has become largely disconnected from the conversation now. Even if we go with Gies's "a few people wandered through there" guess, the population is still so overwhelmingly "white" that I don't see a problem with not having PoC NPCs. Especially considering the diversity the game boasts outside of simply having people with dark skin tone.

Now I think the conversation is largely about whether buying the game constitutes supporting Vavra as a person, and whether this is a problem due to the ongoing debate of his questionable associations and retweets.
 

prudis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
361
CZ
So yes, I, as a European, find that pathetic attempt at diverging attention find that amusing.
you keep calling yourself an European ... but what the hell does that mean??? Europe isnt singular entity so it doesnt really mean anything.

There is huge difference between the countries and european ethincities (especially when it comes to countries from other sides of Iron Curtain )

Its not all black / white / yellow / green / ..what mattered in european bloody history ... it was usually germans, poles, french, czechs ,russians, greeks, .... fighting against each other. Outside of Nazis) there wasnt really any war where race was the main thing (unlike ACW ), it was usually nations and ethicities fighting each other.

And the game is done as love letter to czech history aka the countryt hat has been under foreign rule for over than 5 centuries and quite often oppressed under these rules

just FYI most of the historical research on the game is done by this polish lady and her team
 
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BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
you keep calling yourself an European ... but what the hell does that mean??? Europe isnt singular entity so it doesnt really mean anything.

There is huge difference between the countries and european ethincities (especially when it comes to countries from other sides of Iron Curtain )

Its not all black / white / yellow / green / ..what mattered in european bloody history ... it was usually germans, poles, french, czechs ,russians, greeks, .... fighting against each other. Outside of Nazis) there wasnt really any war where race was the main thing (unlike ACW ), it was usually nations and ethicities fighting each other.

And the game is done as love letter to czech history aka the countryt hat has been under foreign rule for over than 5 centuries and quite often oppressed under these rules
Alt-right fuckwits are alt-right fuckwits no matter the country you are from.
Game being done as a love letter to anything is completely fucking irrelevant. Not sure if you actually bothered to like, actually read the quotes, but we're talking about the alt-right douchebag that is the game director and his terrible ass views, we're not talking about the game.
Also it's telling that you aren't telling "europe isn't a singular entity" to the people that constantly use "europe is totally different" to justifity alt-right garbage.
 
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Cranston

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,377
^yeah, that's a pretty whitewashed way of brushing over britain's long and deep history with white supremacy. "crimes were committed overseas" indeed
Christ alive. I stated that the crimes were committed overseas. That was where the history took place. The Uks history of white supremacy is one of colonialism.

Our history didnt take place in the UK. There was no civil war. No Jim Crow. That’s why the history doesn’t remain in Europe, rather the partitioning of India and Pakistan etc.

The ability of people to twist words on these boards is worthy of the Olympics.
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
^yeah, that's a pretty whitewashed way of brushing over britain's long and deep history with white supremacy. "crimes were committed overseas" indeed.

relevant to this thread though: today, the SPLC put out a write-up: The Alt-Right is Killing People



2017 was their most violent year, and this only looks to worsen. but hey, it's just social media drama y'all, let's respect everyone's opinion and enjoy video games and meet somewhere in the middle! /boogie
How is that article not a thread of its own lb the other side?
 

moonknight93

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
509
On the point about diversity, and the only point I’ve made in this thread, and that is how diverse this game actually is. I’m thinking on the spot, but I personally haven’t played a game this gen with such a diverse collection of backgrounds as this will have. And I’m sure this statement would stay true to 90% of the people on this forum, including you. There’s Bohemians, Germans Swiss and many more within this game, and within the time frame of this game they were very much different. Vávra cannot take from that either. Because he’s a dick doesn’t mean the game is less diverse, as that’s clearly not fair to the team and their creation.
A lot of people think of diversity as only a matter of skin colour, and think about representation only in relation to the american society.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,877
Alt-right fuckwits are alt-right fuckwits no matter the country you are from.
Game being done as a love letter to anything is completely fucking irrelevant. Not sure if you actually bothered to like, actually read the quotes, but we're talking about the alt-right douchebag that is the game director and his terrible ass views, we're not talking about the game.
Also it's telling that you aren't telling "europe isn't a singular entity" to the people that constantly use "europe is totally different" to justifity alt-right garbage.
Please read the thread title...
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,575
Vice City
Christ alive. I stated that the crimes were committed overseas. That was where the history took place. The Uks history of white supremacy is one of colonialism.

Our history didnt take place in the UK. There was no civil war. No Jim Crow. That’s why the history doesn’t remain in Europe, rather the partitioning of India and Pakistan etc.

The ability of people to twist words on these boards is worthy of the Olympics.
the summary was a bit trite, and i think we very much could do a whole thread on the history of white supremacy within the UK, but again, since we've established the links between EU & US hate groups this is all a moot point anyway

How is that article not a thread of its own lb the other side?
i thought about making it one (still might) but the bolded bits felt much more applicable to gaming side, where many here don't seem to want to acknowledge those links
 

prudis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
361
CZ
Also it's telling that you aren't telling "europe isn't a singular entity" to the people that constantly use "europe is totally different" to justifity alt-right garbage.
so if you are that glorious european (whatever the hell that means) ... have you ever been in country whose history is on the commie side of Iron Curtain??? just curious
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
so if you are that glorious european (whatever the hell that means) ... have you ever been in country whose history is on the commie side of Iron Curtain??? just curious
I live in a country who history is plagued with 40 years under brutal fascist rule so no, i don't take any alt-right fuckery lightly, because I already know the end game of these pieces of shit, and what they will do once given power. Motherfuckers like these get no quarter.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
It was more his views on why there were no persons of colour in the game and that fact of the matter that, according to him, there is no documented inhabitants in the area that they are recreating that can be historically recreated authentically. That's the current crux is that this game is being based on recorded history to build a world where NPCs act like they actually did back then, that the game offers authenticity to the gameplay that you have access to.

According to Vavra there were actually some persons of colour documented however they were only listed as slaves, and that is presumably difficult to recreate a proper representation of their backstory, what they'd wear, how they'd talk. This is apparently the basis they are going for and why the issue is at hand, though for me personally I feel it's a perfectly okay game as we have yet to see any evidence of political agenda in the game pointing to racism or the likes. Until that is proven I can separate game from political talking points.
Ok, I personally have no interest in ignoring a dev’s ideology in order to play something they made.
 

Frostman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,187
Great Britain
you keep calling yourself an European ... but what the hell does that mean??? Europe isnt singular entity so it doesnt really mean anything.

There is huge difference between the countries and european ethincities (especially when it comes to countries from other sides of Iron Curtain )

Its not all black / white / yellow / green / ..what mattered in european bloody history ... it was usually germans, poles, french, czechs ,russians, greeks, .... fighting against each other. Outside of Nazis) there wasnt really any war where race was the main thing (unlike ACW ), it was usually nations and ethicities fighting each other.

And the game is done as love letter to czech history aka the countryt hat has been under foreign rule for over than 5 centuries and quite often oppressed under these rules

just FYI most of the historical research on the game is done by this polish lady and her team
21:9.

She gets my vote.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,877
I did. Seems you failed to do so. I'm separating the game from the creator. The creator is a alt-right piece of garbage.
You are allways so fucking hostile man. What country are you from?
You are seperating the game from the creator, and this whole thread is about whether that is possible or not. It makes perfect sense to discuss the game in contrast to the creator.
Especially since the game has been criticized for lack of POC's.

Personally I dont want to buy the game since I dont want any money going to a cunt like Vavra, but I cant fault anyone for playing the game, since it does seem to be historically correct, and it has a very diverse group.
 

Cranston

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,377
the summary was a bit trite
Trite?!

This a website dedicated to talking about games that make beep beep sounds when you press buttons, what did you want, a fucking dissertation?

Anyway, for those that are interested in understanding Nazism and why it isn’t the same as some prat on social media tweeting inconsequential gibberish, I recommend Laurence Rees ‘The Holocaust - a new history’.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
You are allways so fucking hostile man. What country are you from?
You are seperating the game from the creator, and this whole thread is about whether that is possible or not. It makes perfect sense to discuss the game in contrast to the creator.
Especially since the game has been criticized for lack of POC's.

Personally I dont want to buy the game since I dont want any money going to a cunt like Vavra, but I cant fault anyone for playing the game, since it does seem to be historically correct, and it has a very diverse group.
And you once again ignore the quotes I was talking about, which were discussing Vavra's terrible views, not the game.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,575
Vice City
Anyway, for those that are interested in understanding Nazism and why it isn’t the same as some prat on social media tweeting inconsequential gibberish, I recommend Laurence Rees ‘The Holocaust - a new history’.
and for those interested in studying the resurgence of nazism, i recommend the SPLC link i posted on this very page, or perhaps opening your eyes a bit
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,877
And you once again ignore the quotes I was talking about, which were discussing Vavra's terrible views, not the game.
Yes but the way you outlined your statements you made it sound like this thread is not about what is in the game, and I personally think its about both....

Either way, at least we can agree that Vavra's is a POS.
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,185
As this thread seems to have moved on from the original conversation topic, this thread is now closed. If you want a thread on the differences between the United States and Europe, feel free to make a thread in Etcetera about it. This thread is not the place.

Sincerely, a European ResetEra moderator.
 
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