SFV pro player Gllty accused of sexual assault

Osu 16 Bit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
356
Chicago, IL
Have you spoken with him about it since then? I don't mean to push the responsibility onto you but it might be worthwhile.

-edit-

Just wanted to make it clear that it shouldn't be on you to seek an apology from someone who made you feel that way.

No. I've thought about it many times. Part of me wants to because maybe it'd make him actually think about the things he says. We've always been friendly when chatting at events and stuff. I had day dreamed about saying something if I bumped into him at EVO but I never did. IDK, it's awkward, and I just never say anything. This is actually the first time I've even said anything about it publicly.
 

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,287
I find it hard to believe that Aris defenders in here honestly believe he has changed. They're just so in love with the guy that they pretend to be naive and ignorant to it all. The guy has said before how much he loves his job as a streamer, and he makes a pretty good living doing it. Just becaue he's gotten good at censoring himself doesnt mean he has changed, which is apparent if you watch his streams and read in between the lines of his 'safe' jokes.

You better believe he'd be shouting every offensive word under the sun at all times if he could do it without repercussions. You see a tinge of it coming out at times but it's always something 'safe', nothing too far that he can possibly get banned for.
 
Nov 21, 2017
246
I find it hard to believe that Aris defenders in here honestly believe he has changed. They're just so in love with the guy that they pretend to be naive and ignorant to it all. The guy has said before how much he loves his job as a streamer, and he makes a pretty good living doing it. Just becaue he's gotten good at censoring himself doesnt mean he has changed, which is apparent if you watch his streams and read in between the lines of his 'safe' jokes.

You better believe he'd be shouting every offensive word under the sun at all times if he could do it without repercussions. You see a tinge of it coming out at times but it's always something 'safe', nothing too far that he can possibly get banned for.
Most of us would be acting differently if there were no repercussions. Just saying.

However, I am a stout advocate of respect above all. Respect and basic decency. I support those streamers that seem like decent people.

Aris is.. A borderline case. Just don't like him much.
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
275
I kind of wonder how he felt when he found out I actually am queer. I haven't seen any of his content since then, so IDK if he toned it down, went in harder, or what. I'd like to think he realized it was messed up and stopped?

Internet culture is just brutal in the FGC, and I hate the take that "it's not the real FGC". I used to enjoy going to FGC spaces and seeing what people are saying about the game and I basically just can't anymore. The risk I'm going to feel like crap at what I read is too high.
I can't really say for certain because I haven't had the time to watch his streams as much as I used to. I also don't know him personally. I just think he went hard on you during the Kombat Kasts because he was following every episode and you were in almost all of them.

You're definitely right about what internet culture has done to the FGC. I've been around the block for a while since well before SF4 took off, and while there was definitely a lot of bullshit, the internet blowing things up to a much bigger crowd in a space for competitive game definitely attracts a lot of the worst. Like even before Aris started making jokes about you guys on those episodes, the chat was already going off with a lot of that usual dumb shit. When those jokes started coming though, it only encouraged them to double down.

It's obvious that Aris is aware of how garbage his chat is, and he'll often shit on them for that. Like I said before however, he doesn't do too much to try to deter them from being shit beyond that, and when he just focuses on being witty and testing the lines with his jokes, the chat will often just parrot all of that shit in an extremely aggressive manner to the point of turning it into extreme bullying.
 
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ibrahima

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,311
No. I've thought about it many times. Part of me wants to because maybe it'd make him actually think about the things he says. We've always been friendly when chatting at events and stuff. I had day dreamed about saying something if I bumped into him at EVO but I never did. IDK, it's awkward, and I just never say anything. This is actually the first time I've even said anything about it publicly.
That's understandable, maybe it would help all the same?
 

Chucker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,780
Maryland
Holy shit that's the guy from The Next Level O_o
I knew him decades ago, had no idea he was a piece of shit creep. That feels so weird. But it was so long ago, maybe there were signs I just didn't notice at the time.
Yuuup. I was at TNL(Chux) from almost Day One and have known Bahn for like 15 years. Played casuals with him and we hung out at cons, never picked up on that stuff either. He's got a wife and kid too, the whole thing is a disaster.

Super disappointing to hear about Chris Bahn. He gave me my start in games writing back when The Next Level was an actual web site, and I followed him to Got Next and even did a little writing for Put That Back. I never got that sense from him, but I'm not going to start disbelieving victims now that it's someone I know. Chris has some explaining to do, and "recovery from the trauma" isn't really high on the list of things I'm concerned about.
His apology is a disaster, and his wife "taking his social media" from him isn't really helping either.
 

JusDoIt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
South Central Los Angeles
I find it hard to believe that Aris defenders in here honestly believe he has changed. They're just so in love with the guy that they pretend to be naive and ignorant to it all. The guy has said before how much he loves his job as a streamer, and he makes a pretty good living doing it. Just becaue he's gotten good at censoring himself doesnt mean he has changed, which is apparent if you watch his streams and read in between the lines of his 'safe' jokes.

You better believe he'd be shouting every offensive word under the sun at all times if he could do it without repercussions. You see a tinge of it coming out at times but it's always something 'safe', nothing too far that he can possibly get banned for.
The Aris defense force doesn't really care about how his behavior promotes toxicity in the community. He's charismatic and great at streaming, and they just want to be able to be entertained by him without feeling like bad people.

Fans cape for their favorite streamers when they repeatedly do foul shit. Aris and his defenders are only different because of the more intimate scope of the FGC, but it's the same psychology that makes people apologists for PewDiePie.
 
Oct 25, 2017
745
I find it hard to believe that Aris defenders in here honestly believe he has changed. They're just so in love with the guy that they pretend to be naive and ignorant to it all. The guy has said before how much he loves his job as a streamer, and he makes a pretty good living doing it. Just becaue he's gotten good at censoring himself doesnt mean he has changed, which is apparent if you watch his streams and read in between the lines of his 'safe' jokes.

You better believe he'd be shouting every offensive word under the sun at all times if he could do it without repercussions. You see a tinge of it coming out at times but it's always something 'safe', nothing too far that he can possibly get banned for.
The discussion of whether he had changed was about the sexual harrassment issue though and since that went nowhere because the victim believes he has changed its now being twisted into whether or not jokes he has made are appropriate. I certainly agree he makes jokes he shouldn't make but this is a thread about people being accused of sexual assault and its instead become purely a discussion of Aris.
 
Jun 22, 2019
201
It appears some people might be making remarks with the implication that those who commit sexual assault give off telltale signs or something.

People who appear completely ordinary, people who seem genuinely kind, etc. - those people can still commit horrible acts.

I feel like it's a huge misconception a lot of people have that you should be able to spot "rapey" behavior when you're not the victim of it. Rarely does it work that way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,094
Calgary, AB
No. I've thought about it many times. Part of me wants to because maybe it'd make him actually think about the things he says. We've always been friendly when chatting at events and stuff. I had day dreamed about saying something if I bumped into him at EVO but I never did. IDK, it's awkward, and I just never say anything. This is actually the first time I've even said anything about it publicly.
All of this is completely understandable, and I'm so sorry to hear it. I won't be watching streams with Aris commentating anymore.

I manage a fairly large music festival (45,000 attendees, 250 bands, 35 venues) - our community started bringing up similar concerns about the music community at large and in the city we are a part of. We started working with a local Centre For Sexuality to come up with not just broad Code Of Conduct policies, but to try to have pre-emptive support in place, and have actionable ways to deal with various scenarios regarding verbal, physical and sexual harassment and abuse. One of the best things (of many) that came out of this partnership was Community Bystander Trainings that our staff, main volunteers at each venue are required to attend, with other public sessions available. They did a great job of changing my perspective on things, from how off-hand comments might not, in a vaccuum be a huge problem, but how left unchecked, they can contribute to an environment that can have serious, and damaging actions be dismissed or overlooked, and to how bystanders can check in with those who are in uncomfortable or dangerous positions, and do so in a way that doesn't put them in danger or outside of what they themselves are comfortable with. It sounds to me like this is something the FGC needs - a better toolset to identify and then respond to dangerous or unacceptable situations.

All that to say, I just hope that going forward, events look at the way their commentators, codes of conduct, security, and responses to these kinds of allegations contribute to the overall feeling in the community. When communities grapple with public I would hope that events like EVO, CEO, Combobreaker, etc. would be open to constructive criticism about what's okay/what the right thing to do is in all of these cases.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,590
Semi related thread:

Still waiting for Evo to react to either the Bahn or Gllty situations.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,590
FWIW multiple women have come into his defense, which is the exact opposite of the Gllty situation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,094
Calgary, AB
I was wondering the same. Apparently he said in some discord channel that he had found really good evidence of his innocence.

Also seems that a lot of people have said his accuser has mental issues.
FWIW multiple women have come into his defense, which is the exact opposite of the Gllty situation.
While I have no idea if he's innocent or not, just a heads up that:
- suggesting an accuser has mental issues is a common defense to discredit what they say;
- getting other women to say "he wasn't like that with me" or some variation thereof is another common defense - people who have caused sexual or physical abuse are rarely that way with everyone;
- even if an accuser has mental health issues, or even if they are themselves not a good person, doesn't mean that they can't still be a victim.

Again, I don't say that to say I know if he's innocent or guilty, just to say that these are really slippery slopes to start talking about as evidence he didn't do the thing that he's accused of doing.
 

selo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
801
While I have no idea if he's innocent or not, just a heads up that:
- suggesting an accuser has mental issues is a common defense to discredit what they say;
- getting other women to say "he wasn't like that with me" or some variation thereof is another common defense - people who have caused sexual or physical abuse are rarely that way with everyone;
- even if an accuser has mental health issues, or even if they are themselves not a good person, doesn't mean that they can't still be a victim.

Again, I don't say that to say I know if he's innocent or guilty, just to say that these are really slippery slopes to start talking about as evidence he didn't do the thing that he's accused of doing.
Yes, you're absoultely right. Sadly there's also the possibility that people with mental issues can be making things up (involuntarily or not). The accusation should be treated as serious, but as always, not jump to conclusions until a possible investigation is done (is there going to be one in this case?)
 

VinceK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
248
I will say that with the case of fLoE an actual Police Investigation is ongoing from what I have been hearing online. To the point where the OnBlastShow would not comment on this until the investigation is finished.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,256
Aris is always going to be part of the discussion when this comes up because it was an enormously clear example of the community not being able to police itself without an enormous spotlight on its' behavior.

It took Kotaku, Giant Bomb and more shining a spotlight on Aris' shitty ass behavior for there to be any consequences. The people who were supposed to be "leaders" didn't say shit until it was out there in the spotlight, and when it was in the spotlight some people's reaction was to downplay the shittiness and add more on top. So forgive me for being skeptical about anything being handled properly.

So many people who are telling us "It's really fine now" are the same people who downplayed the behavior back then. Maybe Aris has changed---I don't know, but it's going to take way more than one guy being outwardly penitent to change the culture that helped that happen and then handwaved it away as no big deal. Same with Gilty---there are clearly people who have enabled this behavior, ignored it and allowed it to fester. It's not like NorCal is a small or insignificant scene.
 

JusDoIt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
South Central Los Angeles
Aris is always going to be part of the discussion when this comes up because it was an enormously clear example of the community not being able to police itself without an enormous spotlight on its' behavior.
Thank you. This much should be obvious, but people interested in defending Aris and his community want to pretend that exists in a vacuum outside of other antisocial FGC behavior.
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
275
I find it hard to believe that Aris defenders in here honestly believe he has changed. They're just so in love with the guy that they pretend to be naive and ignorant to it all. The guy has said before how much he loves his job as a streamer, and he makes a pretty good living doing it. Just becaue he's gotten good at censoring himself doesnt mean he has changed, which is apparent if you watch his streams and read in between the lines of his 'safe' jokes.

You better believe he'd be shouting every offensive word under the sun at all times if he could do it without repercussions. You see a tinge of it coming out at times but it's always something 'safe', nothing too far that he can possibly get banned for.
Give me a break. Nobody is being naive to anything. If anything, people that are actually making the claim that he's much better have also very much agreed with the problematic aspects of his behavior that still remain.

I get why he came up in this conversation with the Cross Assault incident on top of there being very little follow up since then outside of that one Aris interview and Super Yan outwardly supporting him as a changed person, but it went from that to basically looking for every single instance of him making a off color or subtle joke, which has very little to do with the topic at hand.

My beef here is that there's this sentiment that people should be ashamed for still watching someone that shows any sign of even remotely problematic behavior. That is utter fucking nonsense. Everyone has a different line. We all watch or support shit with problematic aspects. Some people in this very thread learned some stuff about Aris and will choose to no longer support him going forward. I think that is totally fair. At the same time though, I also think it's 100% valid to still watch his stuff and openly acknowledge the issues and watch for him to hopefully continue improving.

There's clearly some good people out there that have gotten in his ear about his past behavior. I imagine MarkMan was one of them. He didn't get super huge with his stream and then toned it back after the fact. It was very much a gradual thing that happened along the way. That is why I can say that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not saying that you, or anyone else has to do the same.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
I don't think it is a stretch to call people out who support problematic streamers. Your own evaluation of the streamer is not relevant.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
Not to digress but there are plenty of people who evaluate and are fine with Trump. Does that mean we can't call out his supporters who admit to his racism/sexism but decide to support him? No.
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
275
I don't think it is a stretch to call people out who support problematic streamers. Your own evaluation of the streamer is not relevant.
I think it is a stretch when talking about someone that has shown that they've been willing to change in the past.

Not to digress but there are plenty of people who evaluate and are fine with Trump. Does that mean we can't call out his supporters who admit to his racism/sexism but decide to support him? No.
This is an absolutely absurd comparison and actually highlights what my issue with this rhetoric is here. Aris isn't trump, and he definitely isn't a serial abuser like Gilty.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
Aris was very publicly misogynistic. He is less misogynistic now, but it is still basically his brand. This is not hard to understand why people judge his followers.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
Aris is an example of how there are no consequences for shitty people in the FGC. See also Chris G, ad infinitum.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
User Banned (1 week): Inflammatory comparison and antagonizing users over a series of posts
The FGC and the GOP are actually surprisingly similar.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,709
• Assaulting Giefkid on camera

• Scalping Daigo's book by buying several copies, asking him to sign them, and then selling them for $1000 each

• Asking for $1000 to go on a "date" as a donation bonus (which was, obviously, never achieved)

• Claimed to "live" in Japan but it was actually just an extended AirBnB stay

The whole FGC needs a big reboot. Put and keep Arslan Ash in the spotlight. He's the hero we need.
God damn I wasn't even aware of most of these instances. That's fucked up.

Also while I'm cautious to hype up people these days for obvious reasnons, I really hope Arslan and Qudans never turn out to be assholes.
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
275
I mean considering what Osu 16 Bit posted in this thread, how much doubt do you have?
I'm pretty much with what 16 Bit said. I'm curious how he feels about that and would be interested in hearing a follow up if they ever were to talk about it openly, but at the same time that isn't my business, nor should I expect 16 Bit to go out of her way to try to get an apology from him.

If there was an instance of them talking and his follow up turned out to be equality shitty or worse, then I'd be outta there myself too.

You see, I know my line with people, and I'm more than down to give others chances because others have shown the same to me for past shitty behavior. I was also fortunate enough to have good people around me that called me out on past bullshit. That's just the way I'm wired.

The FGC and the GOP are actually surprisingly similar.
Yeah, no. I'm done with you.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
Continuing to support misogynistic streamers makes the community worse. Also "That's just the way I'm wired" is basically code for I'm a bad judge of character.
 

selo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
801
God damn I wasn't even aware of most of these instances. That's fucked up.

Also while I'm cautious to hype up people these days for obvious reasnons, I really hope Arslan and Qudans never turn out to be assholes.
Eh, remember these are people just like you and me, they're no perfect beings. I'm pretty sure there would be something people in the US wouldn't like about Arslan if you go looking for it. Since he's a muslim from pakistan, some of his views might not align with the western world, some things that you might find outrageous.

I'd say they should be allowed to be assholes if they want to be as long as they don't commit any crimes (harrassment, assault, rape, etc), they'll lose fans/sponsors but its not the end of the world.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
The community banding around Aris as someone who has "atoned" or "grown" shows how rampant misogyny still is in the FGC.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,709
Eh, remember these are people just like you and me, they're no perfect beings. I'm pretty sure there would be something people in the US wouldn't like about Arslan if you go looking for it. Since he's a muslim from pakistan, some of his views might not align with the western world, some things that you might find outrageous.

I'd say they should be allowed to be assholes if they want to be as long as they don't commit any crimes (harrassment, assault, rape, etc), they'll lose fans/sponsors but its not the end of the world.
Well if Arslan was to hold women in lower regard than men I would stop supporting him but yeah, not the end of the world. I just found him winning really cool is all.

The community banding around Aris as someone who has "atoned" or "grown" shows how rampant misogyny still is in the FGC.
Are you arguing with someone who isn't Manbig that is on my ignorelist or are you just throwing oneliners into the aether for half an hour now? If it's the latter, there is an edit button you know. Doubleposts are one thing, but tripleposts aren't that cool.
 
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reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
Get off your high horse and read the last however many pages about Aris. I will consolidate my posts in the future so as not to disturb all the great opinions you guys keep repeating.
 

Ragnorok64

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,949
...Are you arguing with someone on my ignorelist outside of Manbig or are you just throwing oneliners into the aether for half an hour now? If it's the latter, there is an edit button you know. Doubleposts are one thing, but tripleposts aren't that cool.
Pretty sure it's just a string of posts back to back because I don't think I have anyone on ignore and I see it too.
 

reaganstein

Member
Dec 13, 2017
216
Sorry for my etiquette. Sorry it distracted from the misogyny I thought we left at neogaf. Forest for the trees guys
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,709