Shaming people into voting for an "alleged" rapist is disgusting and shows your privilege (and it doesn't bring people to the polls)

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Oct 26, 2017
5,881
This seems like a broad brush. Could you expand on that?
What I mean by that is people called for nominees like Trump or Kavanaugh to drop out/resign because of incredibly similar allegations, but now that it's our guy suddenly he's given a free pass. Where's the consistency aside from political opportunism? Your vote is your vote, but trying to shame people into voting for an alleged rapist is not okay.
 
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Xaszatm

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,716
I'm not sure it's so simple, though. Part of the conversation goes into the consequences of one's feelings and trauma, on both sides of the equation. I know people understand that, but it doesn't broker much discussion I feel like? It's almost impossible to separate the greater discussion from the individuals discussing it. Hell, I've seen people that are both survivors of sexual assault go for each other's throats over this.

Maybe it's just one of those things that won't have any satisfactory conclusion at the end of the day because it inevitably turns into, "You have the facts, do with them as you will and leave people alone if they feel differently." But I feel like that doesn't really change anything, or even put us on the road to change. It doesn't broker empathy.
Well yeah, it isn't as simple as I was saying unfortunately (I wish it was). But I also don't know of this forum is a good place to convince people to begin with. Convincing people is hard and when someone gets dogpiled (intentionally or unintentionally) it doesn't lead well to debate or persuasion. I unfortunately don't have a solution to this either.
 

Masterz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,612
User Banned (1 Month): Downplaying Allegations of Sexual Assault
I think most of the shaming comes from people looking at the accusations, and still thinking "Believe Women" means that he is guilty of what she is saying and making a judgement on him. That's not what "believe women" is about. Her claim and accusation should not be discounted, and should be seriously looked into, and not dismissed as a political play or scorned women act of vengeance. It could very well be those things, but jumping to that as the first excuse is just shitty and irresponsible. The accusation should be taken seriously, but to all those saying " I won't vote for him because he is most likely a rapist" is not an appropriate response, yet.

I sincerely hope this accusation is looked into and other people come forward with their stories if it is true. However, I find it suspect that after years of people talking about Biden's overly touchy behavior, none which seems to fit into any sort of sexual predatory category , she is the first and only women to come forward. That sort of behavior, especially of someone of his age and public presence is unlikely to be the only time he has done something of the sort. The man seriously has some boundary issues, but not a single women other than the accuser, has ever said they felt it was some sort of sexual come on to them, and even if it did make them feel uncomfortable it never felt like a sexual intent. This accusation is the first I am aware of, where Biden is accused of malicious sexual behavior.

You couple that with some members here thinking Biden is the devil incarnate, and it seems like some are just looking for anything to throw against him to get him out of the race. More so, they are playing right into the opposing hands, both GOP and alt-right who want you to tear him down over something we frankly don't know much about.

Shaming people into voting for a rapist, or a person with multiple credible accusations is a terrible thing, but that's not what really seems to be happening here. People here seem to be shaming others for rushing to judge him as a rapist, and thus equating him to being "the same as Trump so I just won't vote".

I do want to state, I don't think any of us should be calling this woman a liar or dismissing her claim. It's a serious accusation, and thus it deserves to be seriously looked at, not treated as an already case closed on Biden or dismissed as a political hit.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,217
Nobody should be shamed for not wanting to support Biden after this accusation came to light. It's a valid reason. Anyone who has either experienced sexual violence or feels empathy towards the victims is fully entitled to do so.

All the same, the world sometimes puts bad choices before voters and they still have the freedom to decide whether they want to sit out or participate. Abstaining is not a sin, much less a shameful one, but a legitimate option.

I will not blame voters who cannot support Biden if Trump wins, but pointing out the existence of different judicial stances and administrative decisions depending on who wins the presidential elections is also a valid comment. It should be presented respectfully and not aggressively though.

I really, really wish Sanders was in a better electoral position. People have already argued about that for weeks, so no need to repeat that here.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
21,722
DFW, Texas
This is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people defaulting to fucking dismissing, downplaying and attempting to silence her story, regardless of the way they're voting. It's happening all over the PoliERA thread and just in general.
Oh okay then that's my mistake. I thought you were trying to say that people who are still going to vote for Biden also don't believe her story. Sorry.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,017
What I mean by that is people called for nominees like Trump or Kavanaugh to drop out/resign because of incredibly similar allegations, but now that it's our guy suddenly he's given a free pass. Where's the consistency aside from political opportunism? Your vote is your vote, but trying to shame people into voting for an alleged rapist is not okay.

Thanks for going into more detail.
 

clevbrowns95

Member
Nov 8, 2017
2,677
I don't agree, I think we need Trump out three years ago, and people dying over the virus due to his failed leadership proves it with each passing day. But either way, this thread is not needed, it's a parody thread and we have enough that discuss this topic already.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
2,351
It is really too bad that Bernie and Warren couldn't run better campaigns, I agree.



I mean not really. Big-money donors and mainstream media outlets fawned over Pete for months and were pretty critical of Biden. He picked up a lot of endorsements from people who've known him for years, but even in that area he didn't really take off until everyone else had dropped out. As far as establishment support goes, Biden's, given his stature within the party, was pretty pathetic up until a few weeks ago.
Damn you’re right, Biden has just run THAT good of a campaign!! He truly is charisma personified!! No luck involved, 100% skillz
 

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,208
I'm getting similar vibes to the Kobe thread with it. The "Yeah, he is a rapist... but he also meant a lot to other people, so understand...". Where they are being lectured on how to feel about the situation.

I feel like victims of sexual assault already know what is at stake with this election. Trump is 5000x worse than Biden and most are going to vote for him anyways. They know. Let them voice their frustration that again, the party that best represents them are putting another rapist up for election.
 

Owl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,007
California
I'm saying if the DNC gathers in support of a rapist and the voters support this decision then they've proven they will vote for literally anyone no matter what the democrats do. Trump is not relevant to the point I was making,
The opponent is who you compare him to when choosing who to vote. You don't vote on a president by only looking at what "your side" puts out. You compare their policies and what the lasting impact of their presidency is likely to have. You can also compare their character and morality if that's more important to you than the differences in their policy and respective impacts.

This presidency is going to decide 2-3 Supreme Court justices and with another Trump term is a guaranteed conservative court for 30+ years. All those close court decisions would then firmly go conservative. Many rights and general liberal policies would end. There's more to the presidency than who is sitting in the white house.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,021
I literally said in the fucking post that Biden's delegates can do whatever the fuck they want. Even if Biden drops out, I doubt the DNC would be fine with Bernie winning so another moderate will definitely rise up to replace Biden and the delegates may go for them. This isn't about getting Bernie to win, its about preventing a rapist from becoming the democratic candidate.
But only one viable alternative exists!

Saying otherwise is just disingenuous if not a flat out lie

Again as far as the topic goes I stand by what the OP suggests. I will not shame those who abstain.

And those who fear a Trump reelection should probably accept that now as well. The train has already left the station at this point anyways. Im fairly positive there arent many fence sitters left
 
Jan 11, 2018
3,289
Then Trump will win. I don't like Biden, but things will be 100 times worse with Trump in charge for another four years. I don't want Biden in, but what other choice is there?
Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. I choose to vote for good.

But don't worry, I live in Illinois, all EC votes will go to your rapist of choice.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,080
a sunken pirate ship
Enough to completely change it in 6 or so months so I don't have to choose between these two candidates?
Considering the way our society is undergoing a massive shift because of a virus I would say that with enough mobilization the change will happen sooner than we would otherwise thing.

That said, because of the virus that sort of mobilization is going to be especially risky right now. It's still possible to organize things like rent strikes, etc.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,672
Great OP. I hate this situation and I really wish the Democrats would hold themselves accountable, Al Franken was out of the Senate within days, Biden should be gone right now
 

MaximumSpider

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,242
Yes he is. Don't feel shamed into voting for anyone. But they are not the same. Especially in terms of how their presidency will impact the country.
They are both rapist, senile, war criminals, racist, etc. The list goes on. They are the same and I assure you nothing would change, if Biden somehow magically defeated Trump, for the working class outside of Biden being a bit quieter. As Joe himself said it!
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,200
You should try listening to this
That's a great episode of The Dollop and I highly recommend people give it a watch or a listen. It is tough, though. The Dollop has some unpleasant subject matter and this is near the top of the list.

That being said, I don't think Biden's past behavior is going to affect much of his presidency beyond his ridiculous desire to try to work with Republicans. He is going to be incredibly hands off like Reagan was. I really don't think Biden has much stamina or fortitude to be President. This isn't one of those dementia accusations either. Given his performance in the campaign so far, and his policies that barely reflect the fact that he is an incredibly conservative Democrat, Biden clearly isn't interested in much aside from being President. He'll probably have less say in picking Justices than Trump did, and Trump was already choosing from a pre-approved list.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,546
USA
Great OP. I hate this situation and I really wish the Democrats would hold themselves accountable, Al Franken was out of the Senate within days, Biden should be gone right now
The sad thing is lots of people now think Al Fraken being pushed out was a mistake. Because they've realized that if you just double down and deny it works most of the time.
 

Patsy

Member
Jun 7, 2019
202
Germany
People shouldn't be made to feel unsafe on this website, yet when folks are bullying and shaming them for not wanting to vote for a rapist, that's exactly what happens! Questioning their character and accusing them of supporting something worse is disgusting! You don't know who is on the other side of that monitor. There are people who read this site that are victims of sexual assault and they have the right to abstain because of their personal trauma.

You want people to vote for Biden? Fine, there are plenty of reasons one could chose to vote for him. But don't mock others for deciding they don't want to vote for a rapist.
This. I'm not American myself so I have no horse in this race, but as a victim of both rape & sexual assault it's disgusting and genuinely triggering seeing people say others should look over this shit & just vote for a fucking rapist because he's less worse than the other rapist. If you can live with yourself voting for a rapist? Good for you. But don't make others feel like shit or expect them to do the same when they have higher standards/can't look past shit you can.

Instead of telling people they have to vote for a rapist tell them to go out & be loud about wanting him out of the race instead. Of course with Corona this isn't possible now, but under different circumstances it's what I'd do. You shouldn't be forced to be okay with the lesser evil - nothing will ever fucking change that way. You wouldn't shame POC into voting for a racist, LGBT people into voting for a homophobe/transphobe, women into voting for a misogynist, so why the fuck would you shame victims of rape & sexual assault into voting for a fucking rapist? The one time there's actually a socialist in the race people throw hissy-fits because his supporters are "aggressive" about wanting others to vote for him because he'd bring much needed change, yet it's okay to shame others into voting for a rapist. Jesus Christ, it's no wonder nothing fucking changes.
 

N. Tyranno

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,693
I’m a victim of teenaged grooming whose been struggling with guilt and shame over what I experienced. And I... feel used as a prop, and wondering what place I even have in this discussion, let alone sharing my own opinion.

This sucks. I can’t tell other victims how to think, but I think this goes beyond privilege and involves a lot of people who are hurting and being forced to navigate a terrible political landscape. And I say that as someone disgusted with Biden and unsure of where my own vote will lie.

This sucks. It really really sucks. I’m sorry, OP. I’m not trying to dispute your thread and I know you’re coming from a place of wanting to help. But this is far too complex for me and I wish I didn’t feel this way.
 

Maquiladora

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,735
Now post one of civilians blown apart by Obama/Biden drone strikes.
The idea of drawing any kind of "both sides" equivalency between the mistakes of the Obama administration and the actual fascist, white supremacist scum in the White House right now is fucking disgraceful.

And this is exactly the type of Trumpian "no angel either" whataboutism that is used by his Republican bootlickers to silence criticism of this administrations unprecedented vile and incredibly damaging actions that an entire generation will have to suffer through for decades.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,021
Biden gets a pass on being a racist and a rapist. People just want to look the other way and ignore it. It's absolutely disgusting.
Then we need another path toward making society better because we had an entire primary and damn near a year to thin the herd and establish who was good and who wasnt

And it didnt work. The system is broken. Whats the path to fixing it. Ive seen nothing practical suggested to give us hope.

What.. do... We... Do
 

DenverCo

Member
Feb 21, 2019
59
We don't need a guy who wants to send Americans to their death because he wants to make money. We can take a stand when we're ready but now is not the time.

This thing we have in office is going to kill us all and we can't have another four years of its Debauchery. I know Biden is a shitty guy and wish I could vote for Sanders but sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils because that is the way life works unfortunately.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
21,722
DFW, Texas
Considering the way our society is undergoing a massive shift because of a virus I would say that with enough mobilization the change will happen sooner than we would otherwise thing.

That said, because of the virus that sort of mobilization is going to be especially risky right now. It's still possible to organize things like rent strikes, etc.
Well I commend you on your optimism at least. But I don't have that much faith in humanity at this point. I fully expect to be stuck with a bad option and an infinitely worse option this November. And I expect to have to vote for the bad option so that the worse option doesn't completely burn society as we know to the ground.
 

Moppeh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,200
Eh I think he's one and done. Tell me what else I know though.
He probably doesn't even finish his term. If I was a betting man, I'd say he goes two years tops before stepping down. And that is another aspect of this. I'm not American and I fucking hate Biden, but at the end of the day, there's a huge chance that voting D this election means you'll be voting for the VP and not the President. Same thing if Bernie somehow won.

Of course, I can't shame or blame anyone for not voting for a rapist. In the last Canadian election, Trudeau's past behavior was certainly a factor in me not voting for him a second time.
 
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Masquerader

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,065
Biden should step down or get stepped on by Trump. It's both the moral and practical option. Trump just had to call him a rapist, voters just plain don't care about his hypocrisy but they would somehow care about Biden being a rapist because that's the reality we live in.

Seeing as the Dem candidate is supposed to have bare minimum standards, he should drop out or be kicked out. Have another moderate step up to the plate, just not another fucking rapist but an actually vaguely morally palatable person ffs.
 
Jun 10, 2018
2,263
I don't agree, I think we need Trump out three years ago, and people dying over the virus due to his failed leadership proves it with each passing day. But either way, this thread is not needed, it's a parody thread and we have enough that discuss this topic already.
Actually, we don't have nearly enough topics covering users trying to shame people into voting. We should be having it more frequently to be honest, especially since it's been on the rise since Bloomberg gave a go at the election.

I also think if it was found the tactic to be a punishable offense when targeting era's black users, it should be a punishable offense in this instance too.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,094
LA
I would only throw Biden a vote out of spite for Trump. But I would never fight for someone with his record.

I strongly believe people should stick to their principles. You should vote for what you want, and if neither candidate is what you want, then vote for the lesser evil or not, but always show up to vote and support progressive candidates down ballot.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,672
The sad thing is lots of people now think Al Fraken being pushed out was a mistake. Because they've realized that if you just double down and deny it works most of the time.
Yeah he made the right decision to fuck off, but Dems just realized they burned a popular senator and could have looked the other way like Republicans do, and being that they would rather install Trump-lite than Sanders they will probably just magically forget to bring this up at any debates or in interviews
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,896
I think most of the shaming comes from people looking at the accusations, and still thinking "Believe Women" means that he is guilty of what she is saying and making a judgement on him. That's not what "believe women" is about. Her claim and accusation should not be discounted, and should be seriously looked into, and not dismissed as a political play or scorned women act of vengeance. It could very well be those things, but jumping to that as the first excuse is just shitty and irresponsible. The accusation should be taken seriously, but to all those saying " I won't vote for him because he is most likely a rapist" is not an appropriate response, yet.

I sincerely hope this accusation is looked into and other people come forward with their stories if it is true. However, I find it suspect that after years of people talking about Biden's overly touchy behavior, none which seems to fit into any sort of sexual predatory category , she is the first and only women to come forward. That sort of behavior, especially of someone of his age and public presence is unlikely to be the only time he has done something of the sort. The man seriously has some boundary issues, but not a single women other than the accuser, has ever said they felt it was some sort of sexual come on to them, and even if it did make them feel uncomfortable it never felt like a sexual intent. This accusation is the first I am aware of, where Biden is accused of malicious sexual behavior.

You couple that with some members here thinking Biden is the devil incarnate, and it seems like some are just looking for anything to throw against him to get him out of the race. More so, they are playing right into the opposing hands, both GOP and alt-right who want you to tear him down over something we frankly don't know much about.

Shaming people into voting for a rapist, or a person with multiple credible accusations is a terrible thing, but that's not what really seems to be happening here. People here seem to be shaming others for rushing to judge him as a rapist, and thus equating him to being "the same as Trump so I just won't vote".

I do want to state, I don't think any of us should be calling this woman a liar or dismissing her claim. It's a serious accusation, and thus it deserves to be seriously looked at, not treated as an already case closed on Biden or dismissed as a political hit.
Brilliant post.
 

Tophat Jones

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,599
They are both rapist, senile, war criminals, racist, etc. The list goes on. They are the same and I assure you nothing would change, if Biden somehow magically defeated Trump, for the working class outside of Biden being a bit quieter. As Joe himself said it!
Do the working class get abortions?

This just seems disingenuous. Biden can be a shitty person but him being president over Trump changes many things for many people. Especially at a time like this, would Biden have nuked the pandemic response team? Could probably use that right about now.
 

NutterB

Xbox
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
207
As a Person of Color / muslim / immigrant if you cant see how your vote can affect my life and millions of other under privileged folks, then don't vote.

As you said, this isn't about 1 person, this is about taking care of other people who are suffering under this presidency.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,725
The idea of drawing any kind of "both sides" equivalency between the mistakes of the Obama administration and the actual fascist, white supremacist scum in the White House right now is fucking disgraceful.

And this is exactly the type of Trumpian "no angel either" whataboutism that is used by his Republican bootlickers to silence criticism of this administrations unprecedented vile and incredibly damaging actions that an entire generation will have to suffer through for decades.
Hey maybe the "mistakes" of an administration where the VP is now running for President is relevant to the election. Just a thought. Unless you think it's Trumpian to have an honest discussion about the damage politicians with a D have also done.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,282
Seattle
I totally agree, people are going to do what they are going to do. Trying to shame/guilt etc people into voting/not voting is more than likely wasted effort, so why bother?.
 
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