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Shenmue I & II Remaster (8/21/2018; PC/PS4/XB1 - $29.99)

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Apr 20, 2018
96
So what's the problem then? They've removed the black bars and made it so that the game renders correctly on modern screens.
I'm glad for this response. This shows where your reasoning is wrong. You assume the game looked incorrectly on the old TVs. No. The game was made like that. The devs were checking it for CRT TVs. They knew it would look like that. That was the intention. You can emulate Metroid with perfect square pixels to make the Metroid ball round, but that's not how the game was made. The same case here. At the very least, the remaster should include an option to render the game in its CRT mode because that's how it was designed in the first place. If the Shenmue devs worked with HDTVs in mind, they would have adjusted the in-game graphics for them. It was the other way around due to the times when it was made, so they had adjusted the game for CRT TVs. As a result, it's stretched when you render it without the black bars.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
80
I'm glad for this response. This shows where your reasoning is wrong. You assume the game looked incorrectly on the old TVs.
What? Where did I say that. If you actually read my post I note how it looks correct on CRTs because of the black bars (which wouldn't be visible once the CRT actually constructs the image). Because of the fact that modern panels (unlike CRTs) reconstruct the image 1:1, in the remaster they have to remove the bars and stretch the image manually to make it look how it's supposed to.

I don't expect you to take anything away from that explanation though considering you've misinterpreted/ignored every post pointing this out. If you're adamant that d3t have got this wrong despite the number of times people have explained this to you (both verbally and visually) then you're deluded.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,513
It remains an important argument when some people are actually trying to reach d3t ltd to make them "correct" something that is already correct.
I welcome your clarification. Even If I find those just details that wouldn't affect my enjoyment of the game. Now, I'll tweet d3t to keep original Dreamcast water lol
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,096
I'm glad for this response. This shows where your reasoning is wrong. You assume the game looked incorrectly on the old TVs. No. The game was made like that. The devs were checking it for CRT TVs. They knew it would look like that. That was the intention. You can emulate Metroid with perfect square pixels to make the Metroid ball round, but that's not how the game was made. The same case here. At the very least, the remaster should include an option to render the game in its CRT mode because that's how it was designed in the first place. If the Shenmue devs worked with HDTVs in mind, they would have adjusted the in-game graphics for them. It was the other way around due to the times when it was made, so they had adjusted the game for CRT TVs. As a result, it's stretched when you render it without the black bars.
You're still off-base.

You keep inferring that images like this are correct when they aren't:



What the Dreamcast actually outputs is more along these lines:



Like I said before, Dreamcast video output is a 640x480 image pillarboxed into a 720x480 frame. Lop off those black bars on the side and you're left with a 640x480 square-pixel 4:3 image.

The first image is similar to what happens when you connect a DC VGA box to a flatscreen monitor. Those monitors incorrectly assume that you're sending them a 640x480 frame and squish/distort the image as a result.

Use proper capture equipment and it all becomes much clearer. I've been doing it for years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
200
You can emulate Metroid with perfect square pixels to make the Metroid ball round, but that's not how the game was made.
That's exactly how the game was made as the SNES has a pixel aspect ratio of 8:7. It's only once the image is output by the machine that it its then stretched into 4:3, distorting the appearence of circular objects. Sometimes developers took this into account, sometimes (as with Super Metroid) they didn't.
 
Apr 20, 2018
96
Member has been warned: arguing in bad faith. Ignoring posters on purpose.
What? Where did I say that. If you actually read my post I note how it looks correct on CRTs because of the black bars (which wouldn't be visible once the CRT actually constructs the image). Because of the fact that modern panels (unlike CRTs) reconstruct the image 1:1, in the remaster they have to remove the bars and stretch the image manually to make it look how it's supposed to.
You're still off-base.

You keep inferring that images like this are correct when they aren't:



What the Dreamcast actually outputs is more along these lines:



Like I said before, Dreamcast video output is a 640x480 image pillarboxed into a 720x480 frame. Lop off those black bars on the side and you're left with a 640x480 square-pixel image.

The first image is similar to what happens when you connect a DC VGA box to a flatscreen monitor. Those monitors incorrectly assume that you're sending them a 640x480 frame and squish/distort the image as a result.

Use proper capture equipment and it all becomes much clearer. I've been doing it for years.
CRT TVs didn't display square pixel images as they don't have pixels to begin with. They are analogue devices which paint an image on a phosphor coating with electron beams. That's the point. It was designed with full knowledge that the watch won't be round. They were constantly checking how the game is going to look on CRT TVs on which people would typically play it on. You are wrong by assuming this game was made with capturing devices and PC square pixels in mind. It's like you people don't understand the basic fact: the game is supposed to look the way it does on CRT TVs, which is with the black bars on the left and right. However, they might not be visible on a given CRT TV due to its overscan adjustments. This was actually a feature back in the day because CRT TVs would shift image and/or crop it due to random settings at factories. Those adjustments were made roughly and each manufacturer could deviate from the PAL and NTSC standards in terms of image centering and overscan percentage.

In other words, the watch in Shenmue would be oval on CRT TVs of the era, not round. Just like the Metroid ball is not round on real NES hardware and CRT TVs. This is all a part of the SD gaming legacy and you people stretch it to meet PC standards of the modern day. Don't you see the fundamental problem here?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,248
CRT TVs didn't display square pixel images as they don't have pixels to begin with. They are analogue devices which paint an image on a phosphor coating with electron beams. That's the point. It was designed with full knowledge that the watch won't be round. They were constantly checking how the game is going to look on CRT TVs on which people would typically play it on. You are wrong by assuming this game was made with capturing devices and PC square pixels in mind. It's like you people don't understand the basic fact: the game is supposed to look the way it does on CRT TVs, which is with the black bars on the left and right. However, they might not be visible on a given CRT TV due to its overscan adjustments. This was actually a feature back in the day because CRT TVs would shift image and/or crop it due to random settings at factories. Those adjustments were made roughly and each manufacturer could deviate from the PAL and NTSC standards in terms of image centering and overscan percentage.

In other words, the watch in Shenmue would be oval on CRT TVs of the era, not round. Just like the Metroid ball is not round on real NES hardware and CRT TVs. This is all a part of the SD gaming legacy and you people stretch it to meet PC standards of the day. Don't you see the fundamental problem here?

So, the watch was round on Xbox. The watch was round on DC. But it wasn't supposed to be round ?
I'll give you a final debunk to your argument, capture devices. They capture it at the right ratio, at 4:3 and make the watch round.
 
As we gripe about things barely perceptible to the average person, let's talk about something else... Sales figures!

...
Even more impressive when you consider the fact there are numerous other places that are offering it with free delivery for almost 25% cheaper than Amazon!

You'd assume the keener avid fans pre-ordering now would be opting for that (Base and I forgot what the other I saw was).
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,096
In other words, the watch in Shenmue would be oval on CRT TVs of the era, not round. Just like the Metroid ball is not round on real NES hardware and CRT TVs. This is all a part of the SD gaming legacy and you people stretch it to meet PC standards of the day. Don't you see the fundamental problem here?
I still hook my DC up to my CRT VGA monitor. I go out of my way to buy capture equipment and video processors that handle 8-bit 240p signals correctly. I have homebrew video calibration software for almost all of my retro systems. And there's an entire community of retro A/V heads with more expertise and experience than either you or me who will dispute everything that you're arguing.

XRGB Wiki Dreamcast Page

Dreamcast aspect ratio peculiarities
When outputting in progressive scan/VGA mode, the Dreamcast outputs a 720x480p signal, but only uses the inner 640x480 area of that signal. The result is that the Dreamcast's VGA output is almost always displayed in an aspect ratio that is slightly too narrow. The picture below illustrates the problem. On the left, the picture is uncorrected. On the right, it has been corrected using the horizontal zoom function on the DVDO Edge video processor.



To fix this problem, you can use the linearity test on the 240p test suite and increase the horizontal width of the picture using your processor or displays picture controls (where available) until the circles are perfectly round.
Fudoh's Open Source Scan Converter review

VGA to HDMI transcoders are dirt cheap (starting at $30) and usually work fine. The downside of these is that the analogue input signal gets sampled with VESA resolutions in mind (640x480p), meaning that you're losing some horizontal resolution, if your source does actually output in 720x480p instead. The Dreamcast does that and getting around it required you to get a VGA to component transcoder first and add a component to HDMI converter after that. Not exactly user-friendly (or cheap).
You're making the exact same mistake that most of the equipment called out above does; you're assuming that the Dreamcast outputs a narrower image than it actually does.

I don't really know how to break this down for you any further.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,248
I still hook my DC up to my CRT VGA monitor. I go out of my way to buy capture equipment and video processors that handle 8-bit 240p signals correctly. I have homebrew video calibration software for almost all of my retro systems. And there's an entire community of retro A/V heads with more expertise and experience than either you or me who will dispute everything that you're arguing.

XRGB Wiki Dreamcast Page



Fudoh's Open Source Scan Converter review



You're making the exact same mistake that most of the equipment called out above does; you're assuming that the Dreamcast outputs a narrower image than it actually does.

I don't really know how to break this down for you any further.

It's no use. You can keep throwing facts at that person. You can keep throwing evidences, pictures, comparisons, they'll just brush that away, pretending and use the "expert card" while failing to demonstrate anything. Their sole argument has been "The watch isn't round, it's oval !"
 
Apr 20, 2018
96
You're making the exact same mistake that most of the equipment called out above does; you're assuming that the Dreamcast outputs a narrower image than it actually does.

I don't really know how to break this down for you any further.
I'll put it to you as plainly as possible. Everything you are writing is a misinterpretation. You assume the standard back then was VGA with square pixels. The wikia you're quotting calls it "Dreamcast aspect ratio peculiarities" and shows how it can be bypassed on modern displays with XRGB. You're making the exact same mistake the devs of Shenmue HD are doing.

The standard back then were CRT TVs using RCA, S-Video or analogue RGB cables. They don't have square pixels since they don't have pixels at all. Games back then were made on PC hardware - obviously. With square pixels. However, they were displayed on CRT TVs in the end, so the devs at least since the NES days knew they had to check the games for gameplay on real-life CRT TVs with no actual pixel standard. Therefore, they had to adjust games to work optimally with various CRT TVs, taking into account peculiarities such as varying overscan percentage.

Shenmue is stretched so much in the signal, so that it would be squeezed into proper format on CRT TVs and don't lose any important parts of the frame because of a potential overscan cropping. You don't understand how analogue console video games were made. That was a trick for the format of its days. You are taking the raw DC data and leave it as such. That's exactly how an emulator treats it. There's no adjustments which were made for CRT TVs. In other words, the game is supposed to look the way it does on a DC connected to a typical SD CRT TV of its time. You *are* stretching it.
 
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Ellis

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,880
4:3 aspect looks fine to me. I don't see any difference to how my Dreamcast via VGA displayed on my older HDTV.

I take people's word on here, and the DoJo, that it is indeed correct.

What it looks like on Demul;

Let's get back to being happy :)
 
Apr 20, 2018
96
I am here to explain it because it seems that in 2018 the peculiarities of analogue TV are a lost art. I am not taking a part in nonsensical ad personam barking. I only explain why some people wrongly interpret how analogue DC signal worked on CRT TVs. If somebody thinks that SEGA developers and hardware engineers were stupid and didn't know their own hardware, then that person is simply wrong. SEGA knew exactly how this is going to work and it was their way of dealing with overscan problems that plagued CRT TVs back in the day.
What it looks like on Demul;

Let's get back to being happy :)
Emulators use PC square pixels and the game was made for analogue CRT TVs. In other words, Demul is doing the same thing NES emulators can do - turn everything into perfectly square pixels, so that oval objects become round, but that's not how these games were meant to be presented. They were made for a different display.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,248
Ellis your Demul screenshot is identical to the remaster screenshot in term of ratio:





I am here to explain it because it seems that in 2018 the peculiarities of analogue TV are a lost art. I am not taking in part in nonsensical ad personam barking. I only explain why some people wrongly interpret how analogue DC signal worked on CRT TVs. If somebody thinks that SEGA developers and hardware engineers were stupid and didn't know their own hardware, then he's wrong. As simple as that. SEGA knew exactly how this is going to work and it was their way of dealing with overscan problems that plagued CRT TVs back in the day.

You just don't get it right.
SEGA engineers knew their hardware, hence why the game was developped with black bars, so that once it was displayed on CRT, it wouldn't feature black bars. This is why the watch is oval, to be round once displayed. You truly believe they meant the watch to be oval ???
They meant it to be round, so they made it to be oval so that once it'd be displayed on a CRT TV, it'd become round.
You just lack the knowledge to know the difference between the internal image, which has black bars when DC process it and the output image, which is the final result and how the game has to look.
 
Nov 13, 2017
104
Emulators use PC square pixels and the game was made for analogue CRT TVs. In other words, Demul is doing the same thing NES emulators can do - turn everything into perfectly square pixels, so that oval objects become round, but that's not how these games were meant to be presented. They were made for a different display.
I'm no expert on any of this, but from what others are saying it seems the Dreamcast processed the image in that narrower resolution exactly bevause CRT TVs would stretch the image to 4:3. This was intentional. So on a CRT TV the clock would appear round. In other words, the developers knew the CRT TVs would overscan and the stretched image as you say is how the game was intended to look on those displays, which makes the circles round.
 

Dynamite Cop

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,243
California
It's not round. You're blind. The very booklet you posted confirms what I say:



Sonic's belly was always OVAL. It's on every official SONIC SEGA logo ever. That render from Sonic The Fighters is irrelevant.
You're literally counting the pixels on a scanned image of a low-poly Sonic the Hedgehog belly.. to win some argument. Take some time to reflect on that lol
 
Apr 20, 2018
96
I'm no expert on any of this, but from what others are saying it seems the Dreamcast processed the image in that narrower resolution exactly bevause CRT TVs would stretch the image to 4:3. This was intentional. So on a CRT TV the clock would appear round. In other words, the developers knew the CRT TVs would overscan and the stretched image as you say is how the game was intended to look on those displays, which makes the circles round.
No, you got it backwards. On a CRT TV via RCA, S-Video or RGB cables the game would be narrower and black bars would either be minimal or not visible - that depends on the overscan settings of each CRT TV. You can simply boot it on a CRT TV if you don't believe me. I hope you do, though. I've worked with tons of CRT TVs and that's why I know what I'm saying. This is how people played Shenmue on their DCs since 1999. This is how SEGA tested the game during its development. There's nothing strange about this. This is how games used to be made on consoles. You never played Metroid on a NES? The Samus ball is not round there, but it's designed that way. What developers usually did was making the sure the overall presentation suited their design and the menus were often squeezed, mainly because they would normally be on the edges where overscan could crop them.
You're literally counting the pixels on a scanned image of a low-poly Sonic the Hedgehog belly.. to win some argument. Take some time to reflect on that lol
Yes, I literally counted the pixels to show that it's not round and never was. Sonic's belly is oval on every SONIC SEGA logo you can find. That's its design. The poster was wrong about it being round and I simply showed it. We are talking about pixels here, so it's natural they will be important. This is literally about ~10% of pixels in the game.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,319
With each day since the announcement I'm getting more and more excited to replay these games. It almost feels like 99-00 with the way I'm looking forward to this release.
 
Oct 30, 2017
910
Apr 20, 2018
96
OK, I will not indulge in the topic of the stretching further as I've stated my case and I would just repeat myself at this point.

What I said is true as far as fidelity towards the original Dreamcast+CRT experience is concerned. I want the game to be presented the way it was meant to be by SEGA back in the day. They had made it for CRT TVs, not XRGB, Demul or 1080 up-renders, so please bear this in mind when talking about perfectly round menus and dismissing Ryo who comically overdosed on donuts.
 

Romain

Senior Editor, Gameblog
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
195
I want to see more from the Saturn build. I would love to know more about that development process.. the footage we have of the Saturn build is so fascinating.
I've been told by someone that someone who isn't Yu Suzuki has the Saturn build of Shenmue and that it's playable. Wasn't able to find who but I'll try to find more about it if I can.
 

Eylos

User requested ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,111
I've been told by someone that someone who isn't Yu Suzuki has the Saturn build of Shenmue and that it's playable. Wasn't able to find who but I'll try to find more about it if I can.
It would be cool to transform that in ISO for public
 
Nov 13, 2017
104
Xbox One has dropped to 80.

No wonder Shenmue 3 isn't headed to the Xbox. :)

Meanwhile, Shenmue 3 PS4 is sitting pretty at #8 in the Amazon.co.uk bestsellers list.

https://www.amazon.es/gp/bestseller...&pf_rd_p=c68aefa5-3d9e-4b73-b178-1c6a3aa3c046

#2 in Spain!
I love the description on Amazon UK:
SEGA'S MOST REQUESTED RE-RELEASE OF ALL TIME FINALLY COMES TO A NEW GENERATION.

You think Sega had been hearing those fans all those years? :p

TheLastoftheDreamers Maybe you're right about how the picture looked on CRT displays and how it worked, but I still think the 4:3 images released of the Shenmue 1 and 2 re-release are correct and how Sega meant us to see the game, they look right proportionally to me and GhostTrick's comparison conviced me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,293
Nintendo Land
Ellis your Demul screenshot is identical to the remaster screenshot in term of ratio:








You just don't get it right.
SEGA engineers knew their hardware, hence why the game was developped with black bars, so that once it was displayed on CRT, it wouldn't feature black bars. This is why the watch is oval, to be round once displayed. You truly believe they meant the watch to be oval ???
They meant it to be round, so they made it to be oval so that once it'd be displayed on a CRT TV, it'd become round.
You just lack the knowledge to know the difference between the internal image, which has black bars when DC process it and the output image, which is the final result and how the game has to look.
This isn’t a frame-for-frame match is it...?
Stating the obvious but the remaster screenshot is significantly cropped if so.

EDIT: okay actually looking at it (who knew that would be handy!?) they’re both clearly timed differently as blatantly shown by the proximity of the left hand and the machine. I’m blind -_-
 
Apr 20, 2018
96
TheLastoftheDreamers Maybe you're right about how the picture looked on CRT displays and how it worked, but I still think the 4:3 images released of the Shenmue 1 and 2 re-release are correct and how Sega meant us to see the game, they look right proportionally to me and GhostTrick's comparison conviced me.
I wish they were. You see, GhostTrick proved that square pixels make the clock round. However, that was never the point. Typical CRT TVs of the day would crop the clock UI if it was so wide and the game didn't use pillarboxing to counter overscan. To do counter this, the DC's raw image was formatted so that it would get pillarboxed on a typical CRT TV, and thus its overscan cropping would never cut any important part of the image. They've adjusted the character models and textures for a CRT TV with those black bars in mind. You see how ironic this is? When you stretch the UI to perfect square pixels, you're also stretching the 3D graphics which were adjusted for CRT TVs ~18 years ago.
 

stayingfate

Alt-Account.
Member
Apr 14, 2018
25
I don't know why people are so crazy about this series. Absolutely nothing looks fun or appealing about this series.
Well that's you. Games are made to be fun that is what people want at the end of the day but the love for Shenmue comes in all sorts of ultimate forms. Whilst I'd admit it's a slow paced game it certainly holds uniqueness to it. No other open world game has had the same effect on me with the amount of interaction and engrossing atmosphere that Shenmue 1 and 2 ever had such as every NPC holding their own dialogue and own daily routine is still on a huge scale. Both games are truly legendary critically acclaimed masterpieces by Sega and Yu Suzuki as well as a remarkable milestone in gaming. You have many people complain there's no action but there's ton of it from the fully realised Virtua Fighter battle system where you are able to master the skill of real martial art to pulse pounding QTE chases and frequent fights Shenmue never had any letdown moments to me. The story is continuous and hype-worthy seeing Ryo progress on his quest to find Lan Di it truly feels like an epic martial arts adventure. One that me and other fans will never forget.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,319
I don't know why people are so crazy about this series. Absolutely nothing looks fun or appealing about this series.
People enjoy different types of art. I'm sure someone could say the exact same about something you love.

It's not big deal if Shenmue doesn't look appealing to you. You've got plenty of other games to enjoy.
 

Ellis

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,880
This isn’t a frame-for-frame match is it...?
Stating the obvious but the remaster screenshot is significantly cropped if so.

EDIT: okay actually looking at it (who knew that would be handy!?) they’re both clearly timed differently as blatantly shown by the proximity of the left hand and the machine. I’m blind -_-
It was just a quick shot I done. I didn't really pay much attention to match it up perfectly.
Demul is set to 1920x1080, but the actual game is rendered natively and scaled up by the emulator. I don't use the old plug-in that allows you to render the game higher as it is less accurate.

Native with Lottes CRT shader ( Reshade port ) and a subtle VGA setting looks pretty nice.
 
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