Shenmue III is timed exclusive to Epic Games Store, backers PC code redeemed on EGS & no refund (See Threadmark) [READ STAFF POSTS BEFORE POSTING]

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Oct 25, 2017
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Really the tragedy of this is it’ll make more people hesitant to support kickstarter games despite so many being excellent.
I've honestly done a complete 180. From being a big supporter of the platform to not knowing if I can ever trust a Kickstarter again. When even seemingly trustworthy devs will decide not to fulfill PC pledges at the last minute, why take the risk?
 

JayCB

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,137
Wales
Yeah, and notice you never participated in any of them. So don't come in here and wag your finger about how PC GAMERS (TM HURR) only want to talk about Shenmue III when they want to rag on Epic Games.
Uh..I'm sorry for not becoming a neogaf member until 2017 and not posting in those 2015 threads I guess?

What is happening right now.
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,101
Is it your opinion that this is Shibuya Productions/Ysnet's decision that was poorly informed by information from Deep Silver or a Deep Silver decision that has been thrust upon Ysnet?
Not speaking for parent, but IMO it's likely YsNet sees it as "oh, it's just like Steam, but different", not knowing the full extent of what they've forced upon their backers. Under that reality, the "no refunds" is almost understandable. Under actual reality, it's a huge insult to everyone who backed for the PC version -- and it's hard to imagine YsNet being that callous, given the gratefulness they've expressed at every step of the way.

Also IMO, they stand to lose out financially from this decision, unless Epic gave them double digit millions. Did they know that going in?
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
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The last time I felt so betrayed by a kickstarted company is when Oculus sold themselves to Facebook.
 

RPGam3r

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Oct 27, 2017
2,019
I keep seeing people use consumer references, but Kickstarter is different. It's not buyer beware it's backer beware.
 

Alucrid

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Oct 25, 2017
5,187
Not speaking for parent, but IMO it's likely YsNet sees it as "oh, it's just like Steam, but different", not knowing the full extent of what they've forced upon their backers. Under that reality, the "no refunds" is almost understandable. Under actual reality, it's a huge insult to everyone who backed for the PC version -- and it's hard to imagine YsNet being that callous, given the gratefulness they've expressed at every step of the way.

Also IMO, they stand to lose out financially from this decision, unless Epic gave them double digit millions. Did they know that going in?
you should tell that to whoever works at ys net that replied to my message on kickstarter
 

Alucrid

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Oct 25, 2017
5,187
Is there anyway to get my money back?
pick up a code (probably playstation since i don't know how epic store codes work) and sell it second hand once they deliver it

Surely it's the same mostly incompetent PR firm they hired (that took like 4 months to clarify Shenmue 3 wasn't a Sony 1st party title)
oh those silly aloof japanese developers. apparently even after years of having the same shit service they just never learn.
 

Lindsay

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Nov 4, 2017
1,608
Yeah deadass this is scumball city don't let anybody tell you otherwise

In terms of how fucked up the EGS moneyhats have been so far it'd go:

Shenmue 3 (Promised Steam keys to backers, not only not getting those but no refunds)
Metro Exodus (Two weeks before launch)
Phoenix Point (Promised Steam keys to backers, eventually acquiesced to refunds and providing keys a year after the release)

Those are the real nasty ones I remember
An to my understanding these have all taken place within the past 6 months. Its remarkable in how much bad could come out of such a short timespan. The worse is prolly yet ta come!

Do you genuinely think a small independent Japanese studio in an intense period of work making final preparations for release read Western forums. I get the "I know, so they should to" argument is appealing but it doesn't really hold up to much common sense when you think where they are, and what they're doing.
What happened to Shibuya Productions? I thought them an Ys Net were super close an got even helped get this whole thing off the ground. They're a western company who I would have thought would be there ta help suss out cultural unknowns such as this. But anyway small, japanese, independent, whatever. Ya they should have know. They launched this on a global stage with by far the majority of funding coming not from japan. On a western focused crowdfunding site no less! Speaking of crowdfunding when ya go to the public to ask for money ya should know you're gonna be under much more demanding scrutiny than usual, so they should've been on their dang A game. Also still yes cause surely they have someone working for 'em that isn't part of the games development but instead part of the companies management. An if not then seriously who's running Ys Net if every hand they got is on the game an nothing else?
 

MaulerX

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Oct 30, 2017
787
I'll admit that I've never seen so many comments on a Kickstarter project update before.

Because the anger is two-fold. The EGS thing is one thing. The other is the physical copy of PC. Physical to me is a disc. Now they changed it to a EGS digital code. That right there should be grounds for a refund.
 

ParsnipForest

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Oct 27, 2017
379
Australia
User banned (3 days): ignoring staff post and antagonizing other members
It sucks they're not honouring refunds for those who want them (which will ultimately be a very small percentage of people so just bloody do it), but I still cannot believe the level of outrage on here about a swap in store front. You'd think this type of frothing at the mouth would be reserved for things that impact the actual game experience, or the people working on it. Shenmue threads usually struggle beyond 4-5 pages on here, now all of a sudden people care so passionately about it? If there's anything gamers are more passionate about than video games it's corporate allegiances. Personally, I'm a high tier backer and have waited 18 years for this game -- there's no way a change in launcher is going to deter me.
 
Oct 28, 2017
528
Thankfully I wasn't looking forward to Shenmue so I'm not personally disappointed, but this incident and the Phoenix Point one pretty much ensures I'll never back another video game project on Kickstarter (Combined with some of the more high profile Kickstarters being duds like Mighty Number 9). KS probably doesn't care since video games aren't earning that much moolah on KS nowadays anyway unless you're making porn games.

EDIT: Wanted to include fuck Epic and fuck Tim Sweeney.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
18,706
It sucks they're not honouring refunds for those who want them (which will ultimately be a very small percentage of people so just bloody do it), but I still cannot believe the level of outrage on here about a swap in store front. You'd think this type of frothing at the mouth would be reserved for things that impact the actual game experience, or the people working on it. Shenmue threads usually struggle beyond 4-5 pages on here, now all of a sudden people care so passionately about it? If there's anything gamers are more passionate about than video games it's corporate allegiances. Personally, I'm a high tier backer and have waited 18 years for this game -- there's no way a change in launcher is going to deter me.
like lemmings, it's astonishing to me how many people have to be banned before "it's just another launcher" fucking dies.
 

voOsh

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Apr 5, 2018
1,025
Because the anger is two-fold. The EGS thing is one thing. The other is the physical copy of PC. Physical to me is a disc. Now they changed it to a EGS digital code. That right there should be grounds for a refund.
This should be discussed more. Even if the EGS moneyhat never happened, advertising a physical game and then providing a box with a digital code is akin to a scam. It's wrong regardless of where the code can be redeemed.
 

Deleted member 25712

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The last time I felt so betrayed by a kickstarted company is when Oculus sold themselves to Facebook.
I rarely find a thread where I’m just all over the place on the incoming takes...it seems to go from nbd to this is the apocalypse. To me it’s like...what the hell with this EGS fuckery.

I don’t really care for their client, own nothing on it, and one of my most anticipated games ever being on it exclusively after I backed it to the time of a couple hundred bucks isn’t exactly what I had in mind. Talk of “this doesn’t matter” seems dumb, of course it matters and has the potential to be obnoxious at least. I’m there, at least. And I don’t like this sniping shit epic is doing. In the other hand words like betrayal are getting thrown around and I’m like...ok my spouse hasn’t cheated on me here. A business decision was made I don’t super like.

I dunno, y’all need to chill and y’all need to understand the non zero chill
 

Alucrid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,187
It sucks they're not honouring refunds for those who want them (which will ultimately be a very small percentage of people so just bloody do it), but I still cannot believe the level of outrage on here about a swap in store front. You'd think this type of frothing at the mouth would be reserved for things that impact the actual game experience, or the people working on it. Shenmue threads usually struggle beyond 4-5 pages on here, now all of a sudden people care so passionately about it? If there's anything gamers are more passionate about than video games it's corporate allegiances. Personally, I'm a high tier backer and have waited 18 years for this game -- there's no way a change in launcher is going to deter me.
i'm sorry 18-year-waiting-high-tier-backer, which shenmue threads were of the utmost importance that i should have posted in them to not be a hypocrite in your true fan opinion?
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
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I rarely find a thread where I’m just all over the place on the incoming takes...it seems to go from nbd to this is the apocalypse. To me it’s like...what the hell with this EGS fuckery.

I don’t really care for their client, own nothing on it, and one of my most anticipated games ever being on it exclusively after I backed it to the time of a couple hundred bucks isn’t exactly what I had in mind. Talk of “this doesn’t matter” seems dumb, of course it matters and has the potential to be obnoxious at least. I’m there, at least. And I don’t like this sniping shit epic is doing. In the other hand words like betrayal are getting thrown around and I’m like...ok my spouse hasn’t cheated on me here. A business decision was made I don’t super like.

I dunno, y’all need to chill and y’all need to understand the non zero chill
It IS a fucking betrayal. They are poisoning the Kickstarter well with this shit. Look through this thread and spot the hundreds of posts of people saying they'll never kickstart another damn project. Some of us have been planning kickstarter campaigns for a long while now, watching your future backers drop like flies because the project you yourself backed erodes confidence in the service like that is a huge fucking betrayal.
 

Shaneus

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Oct 27, 2017
4,074
I haven't yet read the entire thread yet, but this is what the FanGamer fulfillment page *still* says:
 

Virtua Sanus

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Nov 24, 2017
3,282
As a backer that is extremely attached to Steam and previously had no active interest in the Epic Game Store I do not personally mind, but I feel for those that are furious. I hope something can be done for you all, especially for those that no longer want the game.

This game has gotten tons of negative PR. Most of it has not been deserved but this absolutely is. I honestly kind of doubt Yu Suzuki himself really understands the situation this game has been put in and I bet he never had a say in the matter either.

This news right after the delay into probably the literal worst time to release the game is such a serious bummer.
 

Deleted member 25712

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It IS a fucking betrayal. They are poisoning the Kickstarter well with this shit. Look through this thread and spot the hundreds of posts of people saying they'll never kickstart another damn project. Some of us have been planning kickstarter campaigns for a long while now, watching your future backers drop like flies because the project you yourself backed erodes confidence in the service like that is a huge fucking betrayal.
I’m guessing everything had a “subject to change without notice” clause in it though? And kickstarting something has some inherent risk, it’s not like a preorder got changed. A kickstarter is *not* a preorder. And we have a way to change to another platform if we wish apparently? I dunno it feels a lot less like I found some dude in bed with my wife and more like the terms of service charged on my rewards card
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
18,706
I’m guessing everything had a “subject to change without notice” clause in it though? And kickstarting something has some inherent risk, it’s not like a preorder got changed. A kickstarter is *not* a preorder. And we have a way to change to another platform if we wish apparently? I dunno it feels a lot less like I found some dude in bed with my wife and more like the terms of service charged on my rewards card
wow what you wrote in no way addresses what I posted at all.

I don't really give a shit about how you draw the line at strangers fucking your wife. Good for you.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,608
lol at the 4-5 page Shenmue thread quip. No I'm not active in Shenmue threads an thats cause I AM PASSIONATE about the game! I wanna see an know as little about it as possible before getting my hands on the thing an playing it myself! No I did not watch the latest trailer. Or the one before that. Or glanced at random screenshots dropped in backer updates or anything like that!
 

Alucrid

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Oct 25, 2017
5,187
I’m guessing everything had a “subject to change without notice” clause in it though? And kickstarting something has some inherent risk, it’s not like a preorder got changed. A kickstarter is *not* a preorder. And we have a way to change to another platform if we wish apparently? I dunno it feels a lot less like I found some dude in bed with my wife and more like the terms of service charged on my rewards card
betrayal can mean a lot of different things. not sure why you'e so focused on a spouse cheating.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
Are we still doing the "read the fine print" defense to excuse shitty business practices like a shady lawyer? The ways people defend EGS has shown that people are willing to accept the absolute shittiest parts of capitalism just to stan for them for the past couple months. Remember Trickle Down arguments?
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,382
if they're as inept and incompetent as you're painting them it bodes ill for the actual product
False equivalency here, and I think you probably know that too. I'm also neither painting them as inept or incompetent, but when you partner with say - a publisher, and especially in a market you're not based in or familiar with, you should expect some level of protection and benefit of their awareness. I'm not sure that was applied, or at least in a way that the full force of repercussions were explained. Or maybe even Deep Silver didn't anticipate such a large push back.

Is it your opinion that this is Shibuya Productions/Ysnet's decision that was poorly informed by information from Deep Silver or a Deep Silver decision that has been thrust upon Ysnet?
I couldn't tell you honestly. But the idea that anybody was sat there scheming like a Saturday morning cartoon villain is... I mean it's nuts, and least of all Yu Suzuki.

Doesn't pass water given even what I know as an outside observer, let alone the people who've met him and become friends with him over the last four years. The man cried with joy backstage at the Sony press conference, and again on the closing livestream for the KS campaign. The walls of the Ys Net offices are covered in tokens and gifts he's brought back from around the world since development began, with a huge Shenmue community banner hanging in their meeting room. He allowed fans creating a documentary about Shenmue into their offices twice for unprecedented access to staff and development materials, and that's just the stuff I can talk about publicly.

This is conjecture, but I think if the severity of the backlash was understood (which may only be recognised in retrospect, I dunno), and under the conditions it wasn't necessary for business reasons, I don't think the EGS deal would have been done. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

What happened to Shibuya Productions? I thought them an Ys Net were super close an got even helped get this whole thing off the ground. They're a western company who I would have thought would be there ta help suss out cultural unknowns such as this. But anyway small, japanese, independent, whatever. Ya they should have know. They launched this on a global stage with by far the majority of funding coming not from japan. On a western focused crowdfunding site no less! Speaking of crowdfunding when ya go to the public to ask for money ya should know you're gonna be under much more demanding scrutiny than usual, so they should've been on their dang A game. Also still yes cause surely they have someone working for 'em that isn't part of the games development but instead part of the companies management. An if not then seriously who's running Ys Net if every hand they got is on the game an nothing else?
Deep Silver is the overriding private partner, ultimately. Shibuya Productions stepped aside on certain matters to relinquish some responsibilities to them, and I think on some level there is some friction there (not hugely relevant in this context). But they're not really guaranteed to understand the ins and outs of this platform war either, if they're even in a position to influence the decision; which looks unlikely considering Cedric Biscay has more or less told people to ask either via the Kickstarter or Deep Silver for details. They may have even been in favour of it for reasons neither you or I will ever know.

I can't tell you about the management structure to either confirm or deny your biases here, but you've got people on this very forum you think Ys Net should be reading, with no real clue what the deal is with EGS. You know what I mean? It's not a given to be intimately acquainted with the issue at any level.
 

PC-tan

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Feb 25, 2018
789
At this point in time I really hope that I am one of those 1k people that is able to get the physical PC copy from LRG and if LRG are really smart they will want to up that 1k number of PC copies that they have to something like 7k or more. One of the things that will suck is how I will get updates for the game
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,979
Sydney
Is this game going to do at all well on the Epic Games Store to make up for the backlash it's getting for pulling it's Steam version?

It doesn't exactly stick out to me as a game that would necessarily appeal to the users of the Epic Games Store.
 

Deleted member 25712

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*posts about being unhappy about potential future revenue loss*

"HEY MAN, NOBODY FUCKED YOUR WIFE SO CHILL"
Betrayal has a specific context of being violated by a trusted person associated with it. A kickstarter has an inherent amount of risk associated with it and everything should be considered tbd. I’m not sure how you’re conflating the two except painting everything as black and white

I’m not happy with this change, but I also think “betrayal” is hyperbolic.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
So does this imply there's no physical disc the game comes with, just a box and a code for a store no-one who backed the KS wants to use?
Empty box (digital code only) PC releases are nothing new. I can't think of the last major PC title that actually came with a disc. But, yeah, KS backers are getting an Epic code.

EDIT: Apparently disc releases are more common than I thought.
 
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Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
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Oct 27, 2017
18,706
Betrayal has a specific context of being violated by a trusted person associated with it. A kickstarter has an inherent amount of risk associated with it and everything should be considered tbd. I’m not sure how you’re conflating the two except painting everything as black and white

I’m not happy with this change, but I also think “betrayal” is hyperbolic.
You continue to not even recognize my original complaint. Like it flew in one ear and out the other.
 

Maedhros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
463
Board gaming KS is apparently pretty decent, too (at least, moreso than videogames KS).
It's the best thing they do these days. So many incredible new boardgames get released on KS almost daily. Many shit ones too, of course.

I'm so glad that I didn't get this KS... it was the last KS I wanted to back, if I remember it right it was just a bit after Bloodstained.... and while MOST of my gaming KS were fufilled well (some are still in development though), I had so many that ended on being shit... so I never backed this.
 
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