Shenmue III is timed exclusive to Epic Games Store, backers PC code redeemed on EGS & no refund (See Threadmark) [READ STAFF POSTS BEFORE POSTING]

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Arthands

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Oct 26, 2017
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Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?
It only appear so if you keep buying trash like Jim Sterling. If you've been buying good games, Steam's algorithm will only recommend other good indie games to you. Of course there are other various factors around such as Steam user reviews. Steam is likely going to push a good games with good reviews over a good games with no reviews (because well, how will Steam know the game is good if there's no good review from anyone?)
 

Tzarscream

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Oct 28, 2017
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The difference between Jim Sterling and I? I am speaking about an industry which I am trying to directly compete in, Jim Sterling is not. Jim Sterling makes his money from stirring up controversy, where I am looking to make my money by actually competing in the market that Jim Sterling is rallying to affect. One of us has way more skin in this conversation than the other.
Well he's been working in the industry for over ten years, but I'll not keep arguing.
 

Funyarinpa

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Oct 26, 2017
6,758
my worry about no curation is that it allows fucked up shit to fester and I mean if we're calling YouTube a non-curated platform, are we just going to say the rise of alt-right youtube is a fair price to pay?

But what exactly is the dog pile on the launcher itself going to do in this situation? Would it not be best to keep the focus on the publisher to change or reneg or change the deal they agreed to in the first place. I’m just seeing the outrage a little misplaced.
The reason is because EGS giving publishers money to force games already announced, marketed and sold as Steam games to (at least for a significant margin of time) be removed from there to be put on EGS is not an isolated incident. From somewhat less egregious examples like Control to outright BS examples like Metro Exodus (where the game was temporarily open for preorders on Steam itself before getting moneyhatted by EGS), EGS has been trying to force people to use EGS through depriving customers of other options for months.

People are angry at the S3 devs for walking back on their word, rightly so, but they're also angry at EGS because they're precisely the people who set a precedent for this stuff and even turned it into a practice, really.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
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Well he's been working in the industry for over ten years, but I'll not keep arguing.
jim sterling has never published a single game, no he hasn't. What games has Jim Sterling worked on? I'll wait.


Ultimately I think it's a shame here with Shenmue that a lot of you are seemingly cutting your nose off to spite your face. You backed the game and now you're not going to play the game you backed? I do genuinely understand the disappointment and I get being a bit pissed off about this but at the very least don't let it stop you enjoying the game you've been waiting such a long time for.
You're asking me to support something, which is intended to sieve potential customers away from the only marketplace I am allowed to compete in, and tell me that by not doing this I am cutting my nose to spite my face? LOL

All this, of course, ignores the ultimate elephant in the room: STEAM HAS CURATION. Lots of it.

Go on, show me your steam front page. Show me all the garbage shovelware you're being buried under. I'll wait.
 

Hektor

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Oct 25, 2017
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We don't like curation now? I subscribe to Tidal and I love their curated playlists and exploration mixes because it's hard to wade through all the music to find something I'd like. If Spotify/Tidal had no curation and I had to discover music listening to the "New" queue I'd be spending hours listening to fake kids bop, fortnite rap and minecraft songs.
Steam has those "Exploration mixes" as well, it's called the discovery qeue and the community curators.
 

Igniz12

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Oct 25, 2017
2,867
my worry about no curation is that it allows fucked up shit to fester and I mean if we're calling YouTube a non-curated platform, are we just going to say the rise of alt-right youtube is a fair price to pay?


The reason is because EGS giving publishers money to force games already announced, marketed and sold as Steam games to (at least for a significant margin of time) be removed from there to be put on EGS is not an isolated incident. From somewhat less egregious examples like Control to outright BS examples like Metro Exodus (where the game was temporarily open for preorders on Steam itself before getting moneyhatted by EGS), EGS has been trying to force people to use EGS through depriving customers of other options for months.

People are angry at the S3 devs for walking back on their word, rightly so, but they're also angry at EGS because they're precisely the people who set a precedent for this stuff and even turned it into a practice, really.
Curation? No. Moderation? Yes. Valve need to stop being so hands off with that kind of stuff and be more mindful of what they let in. They were making some good noises recently and then the Rape day shit happened and we're back to square one with all that again.
 

eonden

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Oct 25, 2017
3,183
Well first of all I could argue a lot of your posts in here are scare mongering.

Secondly why should I not trust the word of Jim Sterling? I've been following his work for 10 years because I value his viewpoint (and believe him to be usually correct). Additionally it's not just Jim saying this, Waypoint said this a couple of days ago, Giant Bomb have said the same thing.

Thirdly, from my own viewpoint I think it is objectively true that Steam's laissez faire approach to curation has absolute decimated the store in terms of being able to find new quality products.

This is why I don't have an issue with the EGS, any storefront you can shake a stick at (except maybe Itch.io) have pretty substantial issues with them. Am I going to hate EGS because they are buying chunks out of the stiffest competition (who have become complacent)? Valve is too big to compete with fairly and I think it'd be two faced to prefer one problematic gamestore over another out of convenience.

We don't like curation now? I subscribe to Tidal and I love their curated playlists and exploration mixes because it's hard to wade through all the music to find something I'd like. If Spotify/Tidal had no curation and I had to discover music listening to the "New" queue I'd be spending hours listening to fake kids bop, fortnite rap and minecraft songs.
Steam offers a curated experience though, through the curators, discovery queues, and recommendation algorithms. Similarly to Spotify! Spotify really has not that much curation (and right now it is starting to get even less curated) and it is quite easy to get in there (from a music point of view).

Similarly to Spotify, you are not supposed to go on the "New on the service" as that would give you a full list of music / songs you will not be interested in, you are suposed to use their discovery tools to find the music / games they like.

If your starting page is starting to show a ton of trash games, there are two possibilities:
  • The games arent really trash and you just dont like the genre / asthetics (which is probablly the most likely thing as more than 75% of the games in steam have Mixed or Positive reviews).
  • Your friends, your purchase history, or your wishlist is filled with those kind of games.
 

Nappael

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Oct 25, 2017
4,989
Well he's been working in the industry for over ten years, but I'll not keep arguing.
Being a YouTuber and a journalist is not the same as literally being an indie dev trying to sell games.

It's not even like Krejlooc is the only dev to say these things either. What he is saying is similar to what the Assault Android Cactus dev has said in the past, and my post pulls from personal experience from around that time (I have nothing to do with gamedev now).
 
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Krejlooc

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Being a YouTuber and a journalist is not the same as literally being an indie dev trying to sell games.

It's not even like Krejlooc is the only dev the say these things either. What he is saying is similar to what the Assault Android Cactus Dec has said in the past.
you can find tons, and tons of people saying this stuff in the VR community too, where it's hurting a lot more people due to the smaller nature of the market.
 

Piichan

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Oct 28, 2017
561
Tokyo
Even putting aside whether you are ok or not with EGS business practices...

People paid money to get a steam key. Now they are not getting a steam key. This is a bait and switch false advertising, and total bullshit.
 

Ryna

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Oct 25, 2017
1,623
Canada
Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?
I honestly wonder if people who make these comments know how steam works like at all. You won't see 99% of the "unabashed trash" unless you go looking for it, and filtering out "Adult Content" gets rid of a large chunk of the asset flips completely because most of them are slide puzzle porn games.

Steam recommends games based on Wishlisting, Reviews and Sales. Most asset flips and shovelware dont get a lot of any of those things. "Popular Upcoming" is full of tons of quality games from all sizes. Its not hard to get there either. But barely any of the shovelware makes it on there.

also recently Risk of Rain 2 and Mordhau both released with little fanfare, ROR2 didnt even announce its release prior, it just appeared, and both went on to sell 1m+ each with their first month. Good games aren't getting buried.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,188
Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?
I don't think this is true, I've never seen said trash on my steam, and I'm someone who doesn't have that much of a problem with Epic doing EGS exclusives.
 
May 25, 2018
3,924
If you're an indie developer and you release a game in to the stream of new games that steam gets every day, how does that get noticed?
Devs advertise their game on reddit with gifs and on Twitter. The rest probably need to look interesting enough to click on in Steam. So yeah there are probably a good amount of games getting left hanging.

Edit: of course having a booth at any expos. I feel like few devs do this in comparison to how many devs are on steam though.
 
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eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,183
Right, and if you made that game in your bedroom and you don't have any marketing budget?
There are many promotion ways that do not require marketing budget (and Steam has a list of recommendations about that!)

There is also the point that to enter into a curated storefront, you would still need a marketing budget to actually get noticed by the owners of the curated store, or have contacts with them to get preferential treatment.
 

Krejlooc

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If you're an indie developer and you release a game in to the stream of new games that steam gets every day, how does that get noticed?
Marketing, like any other product? How do things at Walmart sell when they get put on the store shelves?

Would you like to hear a specific way I plan on guerilla marketing my game? This is probably going to blow minds: I am going to purposefully seed it into piracy outlets. I very much believe in copyleft ideology. I plan on using piracy itself as a method to market my own game, and make it well known that I am ok with that.

Right, and if you made that game in your bedroom and you don't have any marketing budget?
You're talking to a bedroom coder right here.

Also, if you haven't been paying attention, none of the games on the EGS are from tiny, unknown developers. They're all from people who have literally already made it big somewhere else prior.
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,244
Thank Christ people are getting banned for this uninformed tripe that keeps getting posted, the mods are doing overtime I thank you. Epic Game Store has really become a force to screw PC gaming, worst thing to happen to us in a long time.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,642
Also, you guys realise that for the good games to show up on your discovery, those games need to be initially discovered first? If nobody's looking at the new queue how are they going to get discovered apart from some poor soul that has to sit there filtering out all the asset flip trash and puzzle porn games to potentially find something worth talking about.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are serious concerns in every storefront and Steam is far from perfect. I get the EGS frustration but threads like these with the amount of vitriol EGS gets makes Steam seem saintly in comparison which is quite frankly not the case.

I personally would suggest that the unwillingness of Steam to limit the floodgates a little bit/perform moderation/curate their store better in order to promote indies better and not letting them get drowned out is far more important to the industry than EGS robbing a couple of already high profile games with their money.

That's my opinion and I hope you don't let EGS get in the way of enjoying Shenmue 3.
 

Necromanti

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Oct 25, 2017
2,445
I just genuinely don't understand some of the arguments that get brought up all the time.

Devs are unhappy with the discovery algorithm that Steam is using and feel their games don't get enough exposure. The solution then is to wholesale dump any semblance of a recommendation system all together.

Steam is overrun with too many games and devs can't compete, especially smaller devs? They'll get more exposure on EGS due to artificial scarcity, but how long until the number of games there grows? Oh, and if you're a smaller dev, you won't even get your games on EGS to begin with.

Steam is becoming a monopoly, so let's pay for exclusives at the expense of any other storefront (that usually got the games too).

The proposed solution never matches the initial problem.
 

Hucast

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Mar 25, 2019
1,487
Also, you guys realise that for the good games to show up on your discovery, those games need to be initially discovered first? If nobody's looking at the new queue how are they going to get discovered apart from some poor soul that has to sit there filtering out all the asset flip trash and puzzle porn games to potentially find something worth talking about.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are serious concerns in every storefront and Steam is far from perfect. I get the EGS frustration but threads like these with the amount of vitriol EGS gets makes Steam seem saintly in comparison which is quite frankly not the case.

I personally would suggest that the unwillingness of Steam to limit the floodgates a little bit/perform moderation/curate their store better in order to promote indies better and not letting them get drowned out is far more important to the industry than EGS robbing a couple of already high profile games with their money.
Ok, now let's stop diverting the subject shall we.
 

Krejlooc

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Also, you guys realise that for the good games to show up on your discovery, those games need to be initially discovered first?
WRONG

many discovery lists on steam are automatically populated using machine learning. They literally don't have to be discovered or get big at all to enter those lists. Case in point, my front page of steam is pretty consistently full of completely unknown VR games, because I've made it known to Steam that I actively hunt for and play VR games, and they have learned to suggest them to me even if they're not popular with other people. That's because I've literally trained Steam on my interests, that's what actually a major component of Steam's discovery system.

Jim Sterling literally trained his discovery queue to purposefully show him awful asset flips, because he keeps going out and buying them and looking for them. They're serving him what his behavior demonstrates he is looking for.
 

Hektor

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Also, you guys realise that for the good games to show up on your discovery, those games need to be initially discovered first? If nobody's looking at the new queue how are they going to get discovered apart from some poor soul that has to sit there filtering out all the asset flip trash and puzzle porn games to potentially find something worth talking about.
And curation would be different to this in what way exactly?
 

jeyu

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Dec 6, 2018
102
I remember myself praying for this come to PC when announced. Now people are upset because it's not on they favorite store. Can't blame them because it was promised. And right is right. But I will wouldn't play the game anymore,if that's the only way. But backers have the right at least for a refund if they're not happy. That's not right yu. Give their money back if they don't want it on epic
 

Arthands

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Oct 26, 2017
4,578
Also, you guys realise that for the good games to show up on your discovery, those games need to be initially discovered first? If nobody's looking at the new queue how are they going to get discovered apart from some poor soul that has to sit there filtering out all the asset flip trash and puzzle porn games to potentially find something worth talking about.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are serious concerns in every storefront and Steam is far from perfect. I get the EGS frustration but threads like these with the amount of vitriol EGS gets makes Steam seem saintly in comparison which is quite frankly not the case.

I personally would suggest that the unwillingness of Steam to limit the floodgates a little bit/perform moderation/curate their store better in order to promote indies better and not letting them get drowned out is far more important to the industry than EGS robbing a couple of already high profile games with their money.

That's my opinion and I hope you don't let EGS get in the way of enjoying Shenmue 3.
So I guess its safe to assume that despite having an account, all your know about Steam is based on hearsay and you don't use Steam?
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
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I keep seeing people claim that Steam is drowning indies among bad games. Even if that were true (it's not), it's still possible to sift through those so-called bad games to find the good indies. EGS drowns indies in a sea of silence. There are literally millions of indie games that are permanently buried from the eyes of those on the EGS, with no way to be discovered, ever, period.
 

Nappael

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Oct 25, 2017
4,989
Right, and if you made that game in your bedroom and you don't have any marketing budget?
Sharing clips on social media, taking part in things like screenshot Saturday, getting your Steam page up early so you can accumulate wishlists for launch day, etc.

Steam actually provides a page to indie devs which shows them metrics of where page views are coming from. It highlights external click throughs, wishlists, and other Steam pages.

Guess what? Most indie devs, like the dev for The First Tree for example, find that the vast majority of people who check out the store page do so from organic traffic directly from Steam itself. And this is a game which exploded on Reddit. Steam is actually pretty good at getting eyes on your game.

There are many games which have blown up like that. This year we've had stuff like Bright Memory explode on launch day out of nowhere. It happens.

AAA devs will always get more eyes than you. No system will ever change that. But at least with Steam's system you have a chance to exist. With curation, many good devs don't and just leave the industry.
 

Tzarscream

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Oct 28, 2017
1,642
Sharing clips on social media, taking part in things like screenshot Saturday, getting your Steam page up early so you can accumulate wishlists for launch day, etc.

Steam actually provides a page to indie devs which shows them metrics of where page views are coming from. It highlights external click throughs, wishlists, and other Steam pages.

Guess what? Most indie devs, like the dev for The First Tree for example, find that the vast majority of people who check out the store page do so from organic traffic directly from Steam itself. And this is a game which exploded on Reddit. Steam is actually pretty good at getting eyes on your game.

There are many games which have blown up like that. This year we've had stuff like Bright Memory explode on launch day out of nowhere. It happens.

AAA devs will always get more eyes than you. No system will ever change that. But at least with Steam's system you have a chance to exist. With curation, many good devs don't and just leave the industry.
Don't you think there should be a base level of quality control in Steam's store so that it would be easier for good faith indie devs to actually stand out?
 

Arthands

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Oct 26, 2017
4,578
I keep seeing people claim that Steam is drowning indies among bad games. Even if that were true (it's not), it's still possible to sift through those so-called bad games to find the good indies. EGS drowns indies in a sea of silence. There are literally millions of indie games that are permanently buried from the eyes of those on the EGS, with no way to be discovered, ever, period.
Its not just that. I also see people claiming Steam is flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, are also those who refuses to show what their Steam main page is showing.
 

itsamiracle

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Oct 27, 2017
1,376
Guys the Steam's front page is indeed being drown with garbage, please trust 10 year industry veterans.
edit: That reminds me, I should go buy gato roboto lol
 

Krejlooc

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Don't you think there should be a base level of quality control in Steam's store so that it would be easier for good faith indie devs to actually stand out?
No, I feel like every attempt to do this is an attempt to objectively qualify an inherently subjective thing. What you are asking for is an impossibility. Inevitably, a "worthy" game will suffer.
 

Eumi

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Nov 3, 2017
2,757
I keep seeing people claim that Steam is drowning indies among bad games. Even if that were true (it's not), it's still possible to sift through those so-called bad games to find the good indies. EGS drowns indies in a sea of silence. There are literally millions of indie games that are permanently buried from the eyes of those on the EGS, with no way to be discovered, ever, period.
That’s the thing that really annoys me about this topic.

There is legitimate debate as to whether or not small indies benefit from steam’s policies or not. Whilst angry men on YouTube dominate the discussion (which sucks), if you actually listen to smaller devs you do hear a wide range of opinions, or at least I anecdotally have.

But the debate has nothing to do with EGS because those games aren’t getting on EGS. EGS is way worse for small devs since its curation doesn’t seem to be based on quality, but on how well they think it will sell.

The fact that anyone brings it up when talking about EGS seems like more than anything it betrays their actually goal, which is to shit on steam. It has no place in the discussion since it’s not actually a problem EGS is even trying to tackle, but it’s still here because it’s a potentially bad thing about steam that a man on YouTube yelled about so it gets shoehorned in.

It has even less to do with this specific discussion when we’re talking about one of the biggest damn kickstarters of all time.
 

olag

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Oct 28, 2017
294
But that's the problem. Steam *is* saintly in terms of developer distribution tools and support, in addition to customer tools as well. You could make an argument that steam needs to be more active when it comes to game curation by the flip side of that argument could be applied to the Epic games store in instances where they refused to publish games for arbitrary reasons. The matter of curation is not a simple one and a more nuanced approach is required to solve it .

Outside that however, arguing that the issues and advantages that both stores present are comparable to customers and developers is at best naive and at worst willfully dishonest.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
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I'll say this -- I have many IRL friends who tried to get on the EGS who got rejected. And, to bring this back around to Shenmue, I don't blame them at all for trying to get on the EGS to begin with. Because, while we're talking about small bedroom coders with no marketing, when you're in that position, the smartest thing to do is to increase the number of stores you hit at once, not decrease. If you're small and struggling with visibility, the solution is to try and be everywhere at once. Increase your spread.

And, coming back to shenmue III, that's why the EGS is so fucking awful. It forces entities to go against their best interests. There is absolutely no way anybody an possibly argue that, given all possible scenarios, the best situation period would be one where developers can launch on both EGS and Steam at the same time and take in sales from both stores. Shit, the best situation would be to hit GOG and The Xbox PC store too, be everywhere. But instead, if you want to be on the EGS, they dance dollar signs in front of you to force you to sign away your ability to sell your niche-ass game on literally the largest marketplace. That's stupid! And not good for anybody.
 

Madjoki

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Oct 25, 2017
3,240
I just genuinely don't understand some of the arguments that get brought up all the time.

Devs are unhappy with the discovery algorithm that Steam is using and feel their games don't get enough exposure. The solution then is to wholesale dump any semblance of a recommendation system all together.

Steam is overrun with too many games and devs can't compete, especially smaller devs? They'll get more exposure on EGS due to artificial scarcity, but how long until the number of games there grows? Oh, and if you're a smaller dev, you won't even get your games on EGS to begin with.

Steam is becoming a monopoly, so let's pay for exclusives at the expense of any other storefront (that usually got the games too).

The proposed solution never matches the initial problem.
Egs is already overrun. You need to use search by name to get to specific game. Unless you get selected for front page.

So someone must know that you're game already exists before.

Of course this is only because of lack discovery features. And will probably change for better.
 

Sean Mirrsen

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May 9, 2018
670
Right, and if you made that game in your bedroom and you don't have any marketing budget?
There's an entire page of suggestions for developers on Discoverability, in Steamworks documentation.

Tag your games correctly, make trading card art to draw peripheral attention, use your allowance of pre-release and beta keys to send to streamers and reviewers, see about participating in a sale, provide a free demo, etc. There's easy ways to generate visibility for your game without any budget at all.
 

Pixieking

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Oct 25, 2017
4,061
I always find it weird that people complain about the "shit on the front-page of Steam", but conveniently forget Valve's approach is exactly the same as Amazon's, with their "Video: Recommended For You" and "Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations". What Valve does isn't unusual, even if Amazon does allow for slightly more tailoring of recommendations.
 

Krejlooc

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Oct 27, 2017
15,506
There's an entire page of suggestions for developers on Discoverability, in Steamworks documentation.

Tag your games correctly, make trading card art to draw peripheral attention, use your allowance of pre-release and beta keys to send to streamers and reviewers, see about participating in a sale, provide a free demo, etc. There's easy ways to generate visibility for your game without any budget at all.
Speaking of streamers, it's smart to send your keys to streamers who actually highlight games worth playing, instead of ones who spend their time reading the thesaurus passage for "shit" and complaining about how everything is buried under garbage.
 
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