Shenmue III is timed exclusive to Epic Games Store, backers PC code redeemed on EGS & no refund (See Threadmark) [READ STAFF POSTS BEFORE POSTING]

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Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,572
Missing the point seems to be your forte, so let me straighten this out for you: Future gaming projects will be affected by this. Guaranteed. And if Kickstarter hopes to ever win back the trust for aspiring developers to use their platform - this kind of indifference would eventually rule gaming out of their ecosystem.
You offered some vague notion that Kickstarter should "hold developers accountable," and then jeer that I wasn't able to completely guess your meaning. What specifically would you like them to do in this instance? They have no legal standing to sue and no real authority over Ys Net or Deep Silver. They can ban Ys Net from using the service for projects in the future, or issue a statement that they feel refunds should be handed out, but none of that is really punitive enough to be a deterrent in the future. A developer that is insistent on burning its backers can still do it.

Guess what, turns out if you buy the fucking company that receive the funding, they managed to get said benefits that Kickstarter is trying to prevent. So why not just give that option to the backers if it will ended up going to the biggest buyer?
Kickstarter is not trying to prevent creators from being bought ought. They do not want equity/stock to be sold on their own website, because then Kickstarter would have to be licensed and regulated in the same fashion as a stock broker or investment bank, undergoing all the same government oversight. That adds a ton of liability and a ton of overhead that messes up their business model. It also prevents small projects from ever being started because all the due diligence isn't worth it for projects with small goals.

I'm not sure why this is relevant to Shenmue 3 though. Deep Silver hasn't bought Ys Net. Fig offers equity in their game crowdfunding, but to my knowledge developers aren't selling enough of it to give backers a controlling interest collectively. Large decisions like distribution platforms would probably still be the domain of company executives. Equity for the backers here would also seriously complicate things in a situation like this too, because if switching to Epic represents the biggest ROI then management is then kinda obligated to make that move -- the best decision for investors might not be making a product in the way the backers wanted, so it creates a rather weird conflict.

I think you consistently miss the point.

But the Shenmue III Kickstarter campaign didn't fail.
I am not talking about the failure of the crowdfunding campaign.

I am talking about the failure of the projects themselves -- failure to either deliver a product as promised or failure to deliver any kind of product at all. Kickstarter offers really no protection or assurance against that.
 
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TioChuck

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
239
São Paulo, Brazil
Not going to read too far back into discussions here, but yeah, the SteamDB entry was still being updated regularly as recently as the start of this month. In March, Yu said they were making adjustments for launching on Steam before the release. The very recent delay also first leaked when the date on the Steam page changed for 20-30 minutes before reverting back (begs the question why they'd change it there at all) . Cedric Biscay, the game's co-producer noted the delay was "unexpected".

I dunno if there's enough to connect the dots, but I'm inclined to believe events happened quite quickly even though Shenmue III has been sat in EGS' equivalent of SteamDB/SteamSpy for a few months.
Ins't everything set up manually by Epic on EGS? Maybe they were in talks with Deep Silver and set the entry up before Deep Silver even talked to YSNet/Shibuya.
 

galv

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,702
Merchant: Hey, do you want tasty chocolate? We deliver in person to your house! You get your choice of tasty brands too.
Customer: Oh, sure, sounds great!
Merchant: We sell this standard box for $20. Or you can buy a bigger, fancier box for $50. Or go nuts and buy in bulk for $200!
Customer: I love chocolate so much... hell yeah, here's $200. (pays)
Merchant: Thank you very much. What is your choice? Lindt, Leonidas, Laura Secord?
Customer: Oh yeah. OK, I'll take Lindt.
Merchant: Perfect!

(later)

Merchant: Here's your chocolate. We have these tasty Hershey's Kisses for you.
Customer: What the hell? I ordered Lindt.
Merchant: Sorry, we don't offer Lindt anymore. Hershey gave us lots of money to make sure we don't sell Lindt.
Customer: But I don't want Hershey's. You have no Lindt at all?
Merchant: No. Hers... I mean we think Hershey's is the most enjoyable chocolate for truffle lovers. But, well, may I interest you in Leonidas or Laura Secord instead, then?
Customer: No, I wanted Lindt and I paid for Lindt. Give me a refund.
Merchant: You paid money before we even offered the brand, so you really just paid for chocolate. Since we are giving you chocolate now... No refunds.
Customer: What the fuck

Internet comments: What's the big deal? You still get chocolate, right?
galv liked this
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,378
Speaking of streamers, it's smart to send your keys to streamers who actually highlight games worth playing, instead of ones who spend their time reading the thesaurus passage for "shit" and complaining about how everything is buried under garbage.
I'd laugh if devs sent streamers EGS keys and the streamers were all "fuck that, not touching it" lol
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,378
So, not to try and force you to open your pocket book to any particular kickstarter, but if you ask me why I will continue to do so, that's my answer: to make dreams come true. I donate to kickstarters to make other people's dreams come true, in accordance with the golden rule, that when I finally take my turn to bat, others will do the same for me.
I know it seems idealogical and perhaps a little head-in-the-clouds, but I'm guilty of this too and have no problem with it. Hell, I've barely played a few hours of either Shenmue game currently out... but I'm a massive Sega fan and I just want old IPs and such (and their legitimate fans*) to get the backing they deserve. So I know about the whole "it's not a storefront, it's a donation" thing. But this feels like it's a donation to, say, Red Cross, but only later did they say only people in a specific, less-needy area are getting their services.


*I'd be lying if I didn't say this video didn't sell me on backing the KS. And I know that's what you were referring to when saying "to make dreams come true". BTW looks like Skatebird has achieved basic funding, and I think I'll back it as well :) Shame that Untitled Goose Game is exclusive to EGS though, there's a big audience they'd be missing out on on Steam.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,675
USA USA USA
okay thanks
Yup it is. And honestly I find it really tacky. Feels like a new gen of pan handling.
i guess in a vacuum i don't mind it, it's 2019 and referral links are everywhere, i expected the steam curator stuff to eventually get there

but in the context of no user reviews it seems pretty scummy. the biggest avenue of you trying to figure out if you should buy a game or not is someone with a vested interest in you buying it no matter what (assuming a game of a certain indie size where there are no critic reviews eg a majority of games released on steam)

also from a quick look at that twitter link from above it seems it's all ten year olds and their YouTube channels
 

TioChuck

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
239
São Paulo, Brazil
What I'm most curious is how this creator code thing works in the eye of something like the FTC, a streamer who has a code is required to #ad every time he plays a game on EGS?
 
Dec 21, 2017
8,374
okay thanks

i guess in a vacuum i don't mind it, it's 2019 and referral links are everywhere, i expected the steam curator stuff to eventually get there

but in the context of no user reviews it seems pretty scummy. the biggest avenue of you trying to figure out if you should buy a game or not is someone with a vested interest in you buying it no matter what

also from a quick look at that twitter link from above it seems it's all ten year olds and their YouTube channels
Yeah you're right, it's referral links 2.0 for sure. I just personally ignore it all even if I feel like I'm seeing it more and more often. Even when I'm playing Dauntless, anything monetized asks you to throw in a curator code. On one hand it's not like it's extra money coming out of my pocket, but on the other it makes certain content creators beggars. It's just another little aspect of the growing social media + games industry I'd rather ignore.
 
Nov 9, 2017
212
Réunion
a few examples from my last couple queues
Strange. Have a look at the ten first games on my discovery list:

I think Steam just gives you what you look for. Or maybe I just use the Ignore button too often...
 
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Gattsu25

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,444
Dwarf Fortress will definetly be called a trash game or shovelware.

Despite it looking like this:



Or this:



The game has an insane depth and complexity to it that few other games have, imo.
I have been BEGGING for a interface/control rework on Dwarf Fortress for soo long. It's an AMAZING game that is scary for folks to pick up due to its initial presentation.

The announcement of the steam release instantly shot the game up to my most anticipated game. EVERYONE should play it.
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,314
I don't think the same on your reasoning, but I'm in the same position on Skatebird only because I do not want to risk giving any money to a potential future EGS game, and now Epic are expanding out and targeting things like What The Golf and Untitled Goose Game, even medium size indies aren't safe.

Then you have a dev who seems to be 50/50 on the whole Epic situation, and yep I'm out.
What? If they get the Goose game exclusivity on PC I'm rioting >:( and then will proceed to buy it on Switch.
 

Axisofweevils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,455
What? If they get the Goose game exclusivity on PC I'm rioting >:( and then will proceed to buy it on Switch.
Welp.... They already have.... D: The Shenmue exclusivity / E3 hype buried this bad news. Thread is only a few posts long.

 
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Arthands

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,596
It's as if, as if, the actual issue is that there are too many good games, old and new. You can't be a big fish in a little pond anymore in the Steam market.

Huh. People not actually having the time to check out every new release, what a problem.
No other media has ever faced that before, I'm sure.
Well yah. There are great games released every weeks and you only have room for 50 of them, then obviously there's some which wouldn't make it to the front page. But that doesn't mean the front page is cluttered with bad games as someone claims..unless the user's been buying bad games in the first place.
 

Nordicus

Member
Oct 29, 2017
475
Finland
Well yah. There are great games released every weeks and you only have room for 50 of them, then obviously there's some which wouldn't make it to the front page. But that doesn't mean the front page is cluttered with bad games as someone claims..unless the user's been buying bad games in the first place.
Agreed, even for explore queues that is BS. Maybe if you hit like a dozen of those queues in a row
 

morningbus

Member
Oct 31, 2017
136
any updates from YsNet or Deep Silver ? it's really hard to keep track of it all.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything they can do to make it "right" at this point short of an absolute apology and a complete reversal of the deal they signed with Epic.

I know I can't expect that. So this whole thing is just so disheartening. Anything they try to do would require a renegotiation of the Epic deal and Epic has no reason to agree.
 

Eusis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,448
Not sure if that was posted:
That’s really just what any sensible publisher/developer who isn’t actively owned by Epic should do though. Would they seriously have just kept it Exclusive forever if the backlash were smaller? Would Deep Silver really think that was a good idea? Maybe YsNet is clueless enough but they wouldn’t be.
 

Reticon6

Member
Oct 19, 2018
144
10,000m under surface level
You offered some vague notion that Kickstarter should "hold developers accountable," and then jeer that I wasn't able to completely guess your meaning. What specifically would you like them to do in this instance? They have no legal standing to sue and no real authority over Ys Net or Deep Silver. They can ban Ys Net from using the service for projects in the future, or issue a statement that they feel refunds should be handed out, but none of that is really punitive enough to be a deterrent in the future. A developer that is insistent on burning its backers can still do it.


Kickstarter is not trying to prevent creators from being bought ought. They do not want equity/stock to be sold on their own website, because then Kickstarter would have to be licensed and regulated in the same fashion as a stock broker or investment bank, undergoing all the same government oversight. That adds a ton of liability and a ton of overhead that messes up their business model. It also prevents small projects from ever being started because all the due diligence isn't worth it for projects with small goals.

I'm not sure why this is relevant to Shenmue 3 though. Deep Silver hasn't bought Ys Net. Fig offers equity in their game crowdfunding, but to my knowledge developers aren't selling enough of it to give backers a controlling interest collectively. Large decisions like distribution platforms would probably still be the domain of company executives. Equity for the backers here would also seriously complicate things in a situation like this too, because if switching to Epic represents the biggest ROI then management is then kinda obligated to make that move -- the best decision for investors might not be making a product in the way the backers wanted, so it creates a rather weird conflict.


I am not talking about the failure of the crowdfunding campaign.

I am talking about the failure of the projects themselves -- failure to either deliver a product as promised or failure to deliver any kind of product at all. Kickstarter offers really no protection or assurance against that.
This right here, is a prime example of circular reasoning. This all started because you had the audacity to tell us how we should follow up with this unfair scenario by suggesting we "take it or leave it"; a pretentious concern that you can somehow see the "silver lining" that does not exist.

Let's not dance around this anymore: Clearly you have an agenda - one that is not of the benefit those who got exploited by this deceptive shitstorm. Admit it, just say it essentially boils down to "another launcher" argument because that is EXACTLY what you are implying.

But you wouldn't because that will instantly ban you, so you resort to these diversion tactics to sway the conversation into victim blaming.

You obviously refuse take my posts seriously so I will place it here one more time because everything that needs to be said is right here:

Please do not do this. As a backer of $500 tier, I can tell you that this is corporate shilling to the highest degree and I am deeply insulted you have reduced us to go by the way of mindless consumers when we - yes - the Shenmue fans are able to look at the bigger picture in the gaming industry. It as amazing how people can lack general compassion to users without even looking at the context of the situation.

By posting this statement, you have advocated for all the worse aspects of gaming fanboyism that has spread throughout the PS3/360 era. You have championed predatory corporatism that is will screw us backers who are already anxious of a game that may or may not be able to release based on recent Kickstarter failures. To add more fuel to this fire, it is almost as if you inherently enjoy seeing passionate gamers who want the to play their hobby in the best possible condition to the point of forking over cash that could buy you an XBoneX - only to have a legal loophole to bypass our goodwill and strong-arm us into playing it in a condition so far from an already excellent platform for YEARS!

How people enjoy seeing regressive aspects in the game industry boggles me. I bought a PC to enjoy multiplats and play them in the best scenario, so why should I be denied playing Shenmue 3 on Steam - a platform that can allow even an old game like Thief the benefit of a controller support (A PS4 one mind you) without experimenting with a lot of 3rd party technologies that may or may not have some questionable malware involved? I did NOT choose the PS4 version for this particular reason. Any bugs, enhancements and accessibility are far more addressable in the PC then a closed box like a console and Steam culminates all this in one platform.

So the idea that you want us to "enjoy" the game, knowing FULL the PS4 version is the best option at this point to begin just reeks of deceit and gas-lighting. This is the crux "of just another launcher" is: It's about bending to the status quo as long as the "games" are released and be thankful that we are even getting the privilege of playing it. Disgusting!

People like you need take a step back and really, really have some perspective:

- It started as a Kickstarter based on the principle that the PS4 version would be supported by Sony.

- The backers were given a chance to place their money-in-their-mouth for a series known to have high development ambitions. A faith of a magnitude expectation was set to wonder if the game would even be released.

- They were given a choice: PS4 or the PC version. The option later down the line was given for that platform: Steam.

- Deep Silver steps in and gave a false impression that the game is in good hands.

- To the hope of fans - and to the determent of detractors - the game was expected to be released on August 2019.

- Nearing the end of the development - the game was mysteriously delayed to November 2019. An expected development considering multiple games does this.

but then...

- we were to discover at E3 of all fucking places that the game would be exclusive to EGS!

- Deep Silver published a tone-deaf statement of how it is "best" played on EGS despite not letting us backers any say on the matter - nor explaining why that would be the case.

So in essence: The BULK of the development was under the backers (according to public records) and should have the BIGGEST say on the matter, is now under the mercy at some arbitration using OUR FUNDING as a negotiating end? How in the bloody world is this even fucking legal? I can only imagine the doors kickstarter funding can safeguard predatory tactics if this was even allowed for the largest funded kickstarter.

We MUST have the option to get OUR refend if Deep Silver is making up for the difference then it is agreed that kickstarter money was never needed in the first place on TOP of the EGS benefits they provide.

GOD DAMN I'M SO PISSED OFF WRITING THIS!
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,376
Florida.
As a person with a love for the underground indie scene and experimental games, it can be hard to convince people most indie games are actually serious efforts, games that end up flawed or even bad aren't the problem, and shovelware is actually more often than not a term that's broad use is often applied to game from the underground indie scene by surface level judgements rather than actual games spit out by using unaltered and barely reiterated games with little care of its quality.
As someone who takes great pleasure in hunting for hidden gems on itch and elsewhere, I can definitely empathize with that, most era users have probably never heard of thecatamites or lily zone despite the fact that they're basically entry level indie grime. Their loss.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,065
As someone who takes great pleasure in hunting for hidden gems on itch and elsewhere, I can definitely empathize with that, most era users have probably never heard of thecatamites or lily zone despite the fact that they're basically entry level indie grime. Their loss.
I was literally thinking this yesterday - that so many of the tiny indie games on Steam and itch that people call trash are developed by present-day bedroom coders. Sure, not all of them are (or will be) looked upon as fondly as Jet Set Willy, but that doesn't mean they're trash or shouldn't exist.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,716
Cologne, Germany
i haven´t backed the game but i think that is not the way to go with your paying customers...they have paid for Steam and not for EGS...

to tell them basically "well, fuck you, you don´t get a refund" is really bad publicity and shouldn´t be handled this way.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,378
What a shame refusing to offer Steam keys even one year later. And it's even sad that journalism is basically doing nothing to inform users in order to prevent this shit happening again in the future.
Yeah, I'm a little surprised the only thing close to media coverage is a Jim Sterling vid. Maybe there's more digging to do for someone like a certain Press Sneak Fuck before anything gets out into the mainstream.
 

YuSuzzune

Member
Nov 21, 2018
952
I also don't understand why Fangamer still lists Steam as a platform instead of Epic. I mean, they can't even bother to fix that, so plenty of people who didn't follow the whole thing still believe they will end up with a Steam key.

EDIT: I found this comment on Kickstarter from the user NCO2K, I think it could be useful if you can update the OP with it:

you can use this link to request the survey back and change your order to ps4:




european backers can use this link to file a complaint:




american backers can use this link to file a complaint:




they clearly breached our contract and violated kickstarters terms of use:




"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."







you can use this link to complain to kickstarter about the breach:




you can use the following emails to let them know what you think:

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]



you can of course use social media to spread the word:










there is also a petition that you can sign:




and last but not least, you can report this project on the campaign page. there is a report button at the bottom.
 
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Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,572
This right here, is a prime example of circular reasoning. This all started because you had the audacity to tell us how we should follow up with this unfair scenario by suggesting we "take it or leave it"; a pretentious concern that you can somehow see the "silver lining" that does not exist.

Let's not dance around this anymore: Clearly you have an agenda - one that is not of the benefit those who got exploited by this deceptive shitstorm.
I never said "Take it or leave it," though DS/YsNet certainly have. I said someone unhappy can sell the game key and get out with a profit. If someone pledged so much that they are going to take a big financial hit anyway, then at that point they might as well sell the swag, play the game themselves and delete all software associated with it when finished. This is a fairly pragmatic outlook that allows a high-end backer to get something out of the whole escapade since they cannot profit in the same way a $30 backer could.

Your response to that has been to claim that I am shilling, that I have a secret hidden agenda, that I am gas-lighting people and blaming victims. You claim that I am resorting to diversion tactics even as you offer up long-winded and unnecessary recaps, go on an unrelated rant about Kickstarter not offering equity, and ignored a relatively straightforward question like "What should Kickstarter do in this instance?" by just repeating the same tired vitriol a second time. To conclude all this paranoid ad hominem by pouting that "You aren't taking me seriously!" is fairly ridiculous.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,065
Brooklyn
I also don't understand why Fangamer still lists Steam as a platform instead of Epic. I mean, they can't even bother to fix that, so plenty of people who didn't follow the whole thing still believe they will end up with a Steam key.

EDIT: I found this comment on Kickstarter from the user NCO2K, I think it could be useful if you can update the OP with it:
They're catching so much heat from the backers, but I doubt it's enough to get them to take their heads out of their asses.
 

deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,145
All I can say, its despite the benefits, I've about had it with Kickstarter based stuff.

My experiences so far:

Mighty Number 9 - nuff said

Yooka Laylee- proabably the most solid one- the game game out more or less as promised. Yes, it was sort of mediocre, but still, not really Kickstarter fault

Bloodstained- kind of peeved over lack of info on what to expect with Switch version- we had to lock in platform before performance details went out- kind of pissy to have a 30 fps experience on Switch unique ONLY to that version, and now I can't change this to PS4

Shenmue- I'm locked in for PS4, but its really scummy what they are doing to the PC-verse.

I think the big thing is the perception does not meet the reality for these kickstarters.

We are sold on:

Please kickstart this game- it won't happen without you and these funds will be used to develop the game. The more you pledge, the more stretch goals are unlocked, and the more content we can add to game.

But the reality they don't say and what they really should be saying is:

Your kickstarter money doesn't really fund the game. We actually need WAY more than that to make this game and meet expectations (unless we are talking about a really small low budget low end title retro-ish like an Undertale or something). We are using Kickstarter as an unofficial preorder platform, which will show on-the-fence publishers this game does have a viable paying audience. If you give us a successful kickstarter campaign one of these publishers does pick up the game and then contributes the real funding beyond the chump change obtained from Kickstarter. The concept of stretch goals at this point is a big joke since we've now got the money for whatever. At this point the publisher is in complete control and are going to do whatever the fuck they want despite what was stated on the Kickstarter- including platform changes, adding previously unannounced DLC (which you backers probably won't get for free), offer exclusive physical or digital benefits to those buying the game at retail better than Kickstarter perks, and maybe at a far better price too.
 

Aftermath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,681
PLEASE STOP BACKING KICKSTARTERS, STOP PRE-ORDERING GAMES, doesn’t matter how much the Dev’s beg you.

Well

feel free to do so but only if you’re comfortable with being fucked around.

Treat it as a 1000% risk like oh you may get something you want but you might not, pretend your donating to a Games Dev Team & don’t expect the correct End product or Don’t expect a Product at all (Vita & WiiU Non Games Which has totally happened)

Another words if you have disposable income that you can put out there & it goes wrong and you can afford to lose it by all means give it to the kickstarter, if you cannot do or afford that sit back & wait to see if it gets made or not without your help.
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,314
Welp.... They already have.... D: The Shenmue exclusivity / E3 hype buried this bad news. Thread is only a few posts long.

:(((( Buying on Switch. I have pretty much all launchers on my PC, I do not mind the big pubs doing their own for their own games, I do Itch and GOG for small Indies and older games. But this strategy taken from stupid console wars of buying exclusivity on games you had nothing to do with is frigging BS. Still pissed at having to install it to keep my Dauntless account with the founders pack just to not lose money I already spent, grrrrrr ....
 

Chairmanchuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,944
China
Shenmue III is still on Steam store. Does this only effect physical copies, or is it not coming to steam at all?
It will come to Steam later, so most likely either 6 months or 1 year timed exclusivity.
But backers will get that shit EGS key.

So we backed that game for hundreds of dollars, we made the "dream come true", we were invested in the campaign. And the publisher/dev treats us like shit.
 

JayWood2010

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,720
It will come to Steam later, so most likely either 6 months or 1 year timed exclusivity.
But backers will get that shit EGS key.

So we backed that game for hundreds of dollars, we made the "dream come true", we were invested in the campaign. And the publisher/dev treats us like shit.
ah its just timed exclusive then.

Listen, EGS may not be as good as Steam, but at the end of the day it is still a PC game. If you absolutely have to play it at launch there wont be a huge difference in how it plays. Sure I would prefer it on Steam, but it is what it is. Storefronts dont stop me from playing games, but each to their own.
 
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