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Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Yu Suzuki is clearly a developer first and not adept with the PR side of his duties as head of a game studio. Watching the game's Kickstarter management made it clear that he's struggled to find good help. In addition, he probably doesn't have a good feel for the PC market, being in Japan where PC gaming isn't all that popular. He's got his nose to the grindstone trying to ship this game in a quality state, and the controversy surrounding Epic has developed over the course of just a few months. I would be surprised if he knew much about the issues surrounding EGS, and bought into the exclusivity deal because he was told it would be great for sales by Deep Silver. I believe he'll try to do something to satisfy the backers affected by this decision once he's reviewed his options.

He's really missing that business and marketing support he got at Sega. Deep Silver has not filled this role appropriately. Contrasting against how 505 has handled their role as publisher of Bloodstained, you can see that Deep Silver isn't putting in the work. 505 games has taken on a community liason role in every backer update, making sure to set backer expectations appropriately against their need to ship a profitable game. They explain every decision they make to the backers, and while a backer may not like a decision they make (like the steel book preorder bonus), they can't claim the publisher isn't letting them know why they're doing it. Deep Silver on the other hand is just throwing their hands up and telling backers to go talk to the other guy.


This post reminded me of this other post at tumblr.

In this context, a game like Shenmue suddenly makes total sense: Yu Suzuki set out to make a game so realistic that it was actually boring. Sega invested $70,000,000 to make this game a reality; more money than anybody had ever spent developing a game franchise before. It would be a new genre. A new paradigm. An unparalleled statement of art. Nobody was there to tell them, "Hey, this is unmarketable. Noone's going to buy your insane vision."

It tanked.

Shenmue is a bold game, and interesting as hell. But it sailed right over everyone's heads. It requires a certain kind of appreciation to really understand it.

At the end of the day, Sega always was and always will be their own worst enemy. A once-in-a-lifetime flash in the pan where art met business in the most perfect way possible, and they will probably never, ever recapture that mixture.
 

Bowl0l

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,608
Yu Suzuki is clearly a developer first and not adept with the PR side of his duties as head of a game studio. Watching the game's Kickstarter management made it clear that he's struggled to find good help. In addition, he probably doesn't have a good feel for the PC market, being in Japan where PC gaming isn't all that popular. He's got his nose to the grindstone trying to ship this game in a quality state, and the controversy surrounding Epic has developed over the course of just a few months. I would be surprised if he knew much about the issues surrounding EGS, and bought into the exclusivity deal because he was told it would be great for sales by Deep Silver. I believe he'll try to do something to satisfy the backers affected by this decision once he's reviewed his options.

He's really missing that business and marketing support he got at Sega. Deep Silver has not filled this role appropriately. Contrasting against how 505 has handled their role as publisher of Bloodstained, you can see that Deep Silver isn't putting in the work. 505 games has taken on a community liason role in every backer update, making sure to set backer expectations appropriately against their need to ship a profitable game. They explain every decision they make to the backers, and while a backer may not like a decision they make (like the steel book preorder bonus), they can't claim the publisher isn't letting them know why they're doing it. Deep Silver on the other hand is just throwing their hands up and telling backers to go talk to the other guy.
Ys Net should throw Deep Silver under the bus. They are wasting everyone's time. And then Ys Net should use this opportunity to get some more money from Deep Silver since Deep Silver is the one reaping the Epic loot.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
He's really missing that business and marketing support he got at Sega. Deep Silver has not filled this role appropriately. Contrasting against how 505 has handled their role as publisher of Bloodstained, you can see that Deep Silver isn't putting in the work. 505 games has taken on a community liason role in every backer update, making sure to set backer expectations appropriately against their need to ship a profitable game. They explain every decision they make to the backers, and while a backer may not like a decision they make (like the steel book preorder bonus), they can't claim the publisher isn't letting them know why they're doing it. Deep Silver on the other hand is just throwing their hands up and telling backers to go talk to the other guy.
Yeah, I do suspect that Sega even 20 years after the Dreamcast came out, would be great at managing Shenmue 3/Suzuki etc. in terms of marketing and publishing. And Deep Silver are basically just making deals to bring in cash but not actually sell people on the game (or provide any kind of support/communication).

Just goes to show what a publisher will do when they have a valuable userbase (in terms of numbers, not unlike having a marketing database to onsell) but did not actually get any money from that base. Fucking vultures.

Edit:


Shills making excuses :/ I'm quite against people blaming Suzuki specifically (idiots will be idiots), but I'm sure many are curious about how he feels the publisher is behaving.
 
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Fishsnot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,967
Japan
So basically after 72 pages we are in mostly general agreement that:

1) Tim Sweeney is a bloody clown.

2) Deep Silver and Ys Net are sell outs and dishonest and legal action should happen against them for all affected by this mess.

3) EGS is the WORST thing to happen to PC gaming since GFWL and UMP (and even Microsoft appears to be redeeming themselves)

4) Money hatting benefits NO ONE at all and is detrimental to the industry.

5) Most people are going to probably not bother with Kickstarter or crowd sourcing for video games ever again out of fear from EGS swooping in.
 

Suzuki Yu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
336
Jeddah
User Banned (3 Days): Ignoring Mod Post
i don't like this either but it's true that they never promised a STEAM ver until maybe two to three years since the Kickstarter campaign ended. (i don't quite remember when exactly but definitely years after development started)
most Backer supported the project before it was ever known where it would land on PC.
very few supported the project after it was confirmed as a STEAM release... at least they should do something for those people.
 

Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
So basically after 72 pages we are in mostly general agreement that:

1) Tim Sweeney is a bloody clown.

2) Deep Silver and Ys Net are sell outs and dishonest and legal action should happen against them for all affected by this mess.

3) EGS is the WORST thing to happen to PC gaming since GFWL and UMP (and even Microsoft appears to be redeeming themselves)

4) Money hatting benefits NO ONE at all and is detrimental to the industry.

5) Most people are going to probably not bother with Kickstarter or crowd sourcing for video games ever again out of fear from EGS swooping in.
That's a fair assessment.

At this point, the only games I'll back now is if it's the Banner Saga guys, which they;re ending the series at their third entry, and Brian Fargo.

i don't like this either but it's true that they never promised a STEAM ver until maybe two to three years since the Kickstarter campaign ended. (i don't quite remember when exactly but definitely years after development started)
most Backer supported the project before it was ever known where it would land on PC.
very few supported the project after it was confirmed as a STEAM release... at least they should do something for those people.

Even if it was never promised for Steam and just "PC", I prefer to not be locked to EGS. Either let me install it on either Steam or EGS, or just by itself.
 

Fishsnot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,967
Japan
Ooofff
Jesus Christ:
yhfxrqby43431.png
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
i don't like this either but it's true that they never promised a STEAM ver until maybe two to three years since the Kickstarter campaign ended.
Did you read the thread title? Or any of the thread, where they're now no longer offering a physical version of the game to people who backed it FROM THE BEGINNING?

most Backer supported the project before it was ever known where it would land on PC.
very few supported the project after it was confirmed as a STEAM release... at least they should do something for those people.
THERE WERE NO OTHER MAJOR MARKETPLACES ON PC AT THE TIME.
And you don't know how many slacker backers there were after the KS. Slacker backing ended in Oct. 2018, and even up until March this year Yu said it was launching on Steam. Just do a bit of research, which I'd expect of someone with your username rather than blindly defending the product.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
i don't like this either but it's true that they never promised a STEAM ver until maybe two to three years since the Kickstarter campaign ended. (i don't quite remember when exactly but definitely years after development started)
most Backer supported the project before it was ever known where it would land on PC.
very few supported the project after it was confirmed as a STEAM release... at least they should do something for those people.
Nice try, Mr. Suzuki.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
I never said "Take it or leave it," though DS/YsNet certainly have. I said someone unhappy can sell the game key and get out with a profit. If someone pledged so much that they are going to take a big financial hit anyway, then at that point they might as well sell the swag, play the game themselves and delete all software associated with it when finished. This is a fairly pragmatic outlook that allows a high-end backer to get something out of the whole escapade since they cannot profit in the same way a $30 backer could.

Your response to that has been to claim that I am shilling, that I have a secret hidden agenda, that I am gas-lighting people and blaming victims. You claim that I am resorting to diversion tactics even as you offer up long-winded and unnecessary recaps, go on an unrelated rant about Kickstarter not offering equity, and ignored a relatively straightforward question like "What should Kickstarter do in this instance?" by just repeating the same tired vitriol a second time. To conclude all this paranoid ad hominem by pouting that "You aren't taking me seriously!" is fairly ridiculous.

The potential value of the swag is being damaged by this shitstorm.
Maybe I can still come out ahead on this deal by selling everything, but I have my doubts.
 

Ryo Hazuki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,498
The potential value of the swag is being damaged by this shitstorm.
Maybe I can still come out ahead on this deal by selling everything, but I have my doubts.

Wouldn't be so sure about that. Collector's Editions of Shenmue 3 that went on sale after the E3 trailer have been selling out fast at online retailers.

Makq0HR.jpg
 

Ryo Hazuki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,498
That's probably from PC Kickstarter backers who want an actual on-disc copy of the game rather than just an EGS code in a box.

Pretty sure the collectors edition will just come with the same EGS code in a box if you buy the PC version. If they want it on disc they'd probably just buy the PS4 standard edition.
 

Ryo Hazuki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,498
Is that the PS4 or PC version selling out?

I believe it's only the PS4 version that is available in online retailers in Europe which is selling out. Limited Run Games are selling it in the US and goes on sale "soon". According to LRG the PS4 version will have an availability of 4000 and the PC version will have an availability of 1000.
 

DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
"But they never promised anything"
*screenshot mentioning Steam physical copy*
"But Kickstarter doesn't have any rules about providing rewards"
*quote of Kickstarter ToS stating this exact thing*
"But Kickstarter doesn't have to follow those rules"




The lengths corporate apologists go to, fucking really.

It's frankly pathetic.
 

Siresly

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,580
This tweet by Julia Hardy is not gonna be received well


Meh whatcha gonna do.
Epic has done a bunch of stuff over the past decades that is deserving of recognition, probably Unreal Engine mainly, which is the "platform" referred to.

It is pretty weird to ignore the current bullshit Epic is up to, but you know, context blablah. Don't have to dunk the birthday boy's face in the cake. It's fine.
The timing of this award though...it is at least a year too late, let's say.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
Ooofff
Jesus Christ:
yhfxrqby43431.png
That end reply isn't wrong. Epic only cares about pushing its fingers into Steam's pie while also becoming an ironic monopoly itself. I still love that they are both claiming the monopoly line and also that they are supporting devs through exclusivity, which apparently is just a simple click of a different icon despite that not being the case at all. But hey, fuck me as the consumer having choice right?
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
Shills making excuses :/ I'm quite against people blaming Suzuki specifically (idiots will be idiots), but I'm sure many are curious about how he feels the publisher is behaving.
Why is Adam a shill for not wanting to bombard one of his gaming heroes with questions about a touchy subject within literally 24 hours of meeting them for the first time?

Jesus Christ, have some perspective. The Twitter mob mentality is not appropriate for real life.

EDIT:

And unsurprisingly people are being pretty rude to Adam in the comments too, with the level of discussion on this page alone being a ball hair away from sinking that low.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
Pretty sure the collectors edition will just come with the same EGS code in a box if you buy the PC version. If they want it on disc they'd probably just buy the PS4 standard edition.
Still says "A copy of the game" on the PC version, and a PC-DVD label on the box.

I don't consider a game code "a copy" of a game.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Why is Adam a shill for not wanting to bombard one of his gaming heroes with questions about a touchy subject within literally 24 hours of meeting them for the first time?

Jesus Christ, have some perspective. The Twitter mob mentality is not appropriate for real life.

EDIT:

And unsurprisingly people are being pretty rude to Adam in the comments too, with the level of discussion on this page alone being a ball hair away from sinking that low.
I think your the one who needs some perspective, that twitter thread hits right on the issues.
 

Bowl0l

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,608
Still says "A copy of the game" on the PC version, and a PC-DVD label on the box.

I don't consider a game code "a copy" of a game.
An unrelated party to Ys Net could sell disks with the full installer for the PC version while backers get a code.
Another round of applause for Deep Silver and Ys Net.

At this rate, why not make even the PS4 copies only comes with a code? That should make all backers feel equal.
 

Ryo Hazuki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,498
Still says "A copy of the game" on the PC version, and a PC-DVD label on the box.

I don't consider a game code "a copy" of a game.

Lol if you're looking for a physical PC disk of any game then good luck I guess. Pretty sure almost every retail PC game is a code in a box these days.

An unrelated party to Ys Net could sell disks with the full installer for the PC version while backers get a code.
Another round of applause for Deep Silver and Ys Net.

Pretty sure it won't be a disk and will just be the EGS code in a box version. That will be all PC copies I'd imagine.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
Selling the ps4 version mint condition when I receive it and buying panzer dragoon with the money.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,206
Wouldn't be so sure about that. Collector's Editions of Shenmue 3 that went on sale after the E3 trailer have been selling out fast at online retailers.

Makq0HR.jpg


inb4 "This game will only sell to the fans"

Shenmue fans sure must be rich to be able to kickstart a game and then still buy an expensive collectors edition.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
Lol if you're looking for a physical PC disk of any game then good luck I guess. Pretty sure almost every retail PC game is a code in a box these days.
So.... it's my fault for not understanding what the "PC DVD" logo and/or "Physical Steam copy" means.

Or this:
For what it's worth, I specifically asked whether the PC disc would actually be functional or just a glorified download code, and they had this to say last year:

I'm interested in knowing whether they're walking that back or not.

X0kvXaR.png
I guess it's the consumers who are to blame for believing any of this. Thread can be closed now!
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
Ooofff
Jesus Christ:
yhfxrqby43431.png

Tim's a billionare multiple times over. Tim has a PR team. Imagine being such a narcissist you do shitty thing, promise not to do more shitty things to the press, do them again, and then get into twitter debates with consumers that they are wrong and you are the savior for PC gaming.

Tim please do not use your PR team and please keep on talking. Please. People need to hear your voice and your opinions.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
Why is Adam a shill for not wanting to bombard one of his gaming heroes with questions about a touchy subject within literally 24 hours of meeting them for the first time?

Jesus Christ, have some perspective. The Twitter mob mentality is not appropriate for real life.

EDIT:

And unsurprisingly people are being pretty rude to Adam in the comments too, with the level of discussion on this page alone being a ball hair away from sinking that low.

Actual journalists hit people they've never met with tough questions every day.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
Why is Adam a shill for not wanting to bombard one of his gaming heroes with questions about a touchy subject within literally 24 hours of meeting them for the first time?

Jesus Christ, have some perspective. The Twitter mob mentality is not appropriate for real life.
He's a shill because he's making excuses on Suzuki's behalf, not because he's not asking hard questions or whatever. Like it or not, fans of Shenmue right now don't exactly want to know what he's focused on, they'd like to know what his thoughts on this matter are (even if it's a "no comment").

Not everyone questioning things is a part of this "mob". And for what it's worth, I replied to that tweet saying Suzuki finished the game a while ago and Adam liked it.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
Actual journalists hit people they've never met with tough questions every day.
He's a YouTuber, so absolutely not his fucking job regardless.

But also does anybody genuinely think going after Yu Suzuki like a rabid dog will yield any satisfactory answers or illicit any immediate change? Gutter press tabloid tactics will not fix this, it's hectoring someone for the sake of it to sate a blood lust.

They know people are angry. Getting in an old man's face about it before he flies back to Japan isn't going to do anything.
 

Spaghetti

Member
Dec 2, 2017
2,740
He's a shill because he's making excuses on Suzuki's behalf, not because he's not asking hard questions or whatever. Like it or not, fans of Shenmue right now don't exactly want to know what he's focused on, they'd like to know what his thoughts on this matter are (even if it's a "no comment").
But he's right though. The developer/publisher dynamic is not one where Yu is going to hold the power, and Adam isn't a "shill" for pointing that out. The man is - primarily - just trying to finish his game, and distribution handling is exactly one of the reasons why you seek out a publisher in the first place.

When did giving some level of benefit of the doubt become making excuses?
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
But he's right though. The developer/publisher dynamic is not one where Yu is going to hold the power, and Adam isn't a "shill" for pointing that out. The man is - primarily - just trying to finish his game, and distribution handling is exactly one of the reasons why you seek out a publisher in the first place.
Trying to finish his game?
By Julien Hubert - published on March 13, 2019 at 12:00

GAMEBLOG: There are only a few short months left before the release of Shenmue III, what kind of work do you have left to do?

YU SUZUKI: Our job now is basically tuning, debugging, and upgrading.

The game itself is totally finished?

Yes. After that there are still things like the location of the game, or the adjustments with the platforms of Steam and Sony.
 

ramoisdead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,582
Welp Shenmue 3 took the top spot of E3 2019 according to Angry Joe. However...it's not a spot you want to be awarded. Not at all.

 

MrCunningham

Banned
Nov 15, 2017
1,372
Welp Shenmue 3 took the top spot of E3 2019 according to Angry Joe. However...it's not a spot you want to be awarded. Not at all.



I honestly didn't expect to see so much backlash over Shenmue III. Honestly, I think the latest media for the game generally looks very good and on point with the two pervious games in the series. I'm actually more excited for the game now than I was a year ago. Mostly because I wasn't expecting Shenmue III to be a complete game. But by the sounds of it, it will be. Yeah, you could make some points on the graphics. But it was made within the time frame of 4 1/2 years on a B-tier budget with a smaller staff.

I'm not even mad at the EGS exclusivity. If the developers want to wring out more money, then that is their business. Sure, it does suck for people who wanted Steam store support for some of the other features. I can't deny that. I am also a bit annoyed that I will not be able to play this using Proton on Steam. But lack of Linux support on EGS is a bit disappointing.

Sgenmue is such a weirdly misunderstood series. It is one of these franchinses, that when you get it, you "get it". Otherwise people still don't know what to make of this series. On the surface level it is an easy franchise to write off. But the underlying mechanics still hasn't really been replicated in any modern games. Shenmue is more of an experience than anything else. One that won;t appeal to everybody. I still remember being hyped for the original Shenmue trailers all the way back in 1998. Just because there was nothing else like it back then either. The series is, in many ways still ahead of its time.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,898
These are the critical final stages of game development. He's not just sitting on his ass doing nothing. If they were done then there wouldn't have been a delay to November.
Never said he wasn't doing anything, but his mind would no longer 100% be on developing so he should be able to make some kind of statement on this issue.

I'm not even mad at the EGS exclusivity. If the developers want to wring out more money, then that is their business. Sure, it does suck for people who wanted Steam store support for some of the other features. I can't deny that. I am also a bit annoyed that I will not be able to play this using Proton on Steam. But lack of Linux support on EGS is a bit disappointing.
Happy you're not mad. Plenty of people are though for reasons that are more drawn out than just "the developers wanting to wring out more money". Read the room.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
The potential value of the swag is being damaged by this shitstorm.
Maybe I can still come out ahead on this deal by selling everything, but I have my doubts.
I think there are enough superfans that will pay a decent amount for whatever merch they offered up on the Kickstarter. What really hurts the value of the swag is that they continued offering it through a Slacker Backer campaign for like 2 years. So pretty much anyone that wants to buy it has probably gotten it. If it were just limited to the people who backed the 4-week Kickstarter that stuff would be a lot more rare and exclusive.
 
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