Shenmue III |OT| Our Destiny Since Ancient Times

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
I dont see how Shenmue IV could be a conclusion considering Shenmue III does veryyyyyyyy little in term of story or even character developpement. If Shenmue 3 didnt feel like a filler episode, maybe. But in that case, I think it wont end until 5... Maybe 6.
Some people here hate this idea but I think Ryo reasons with Lan Di about how his father may have died, whether it was the Chi You men or if the mirrors are cursed, and they do a time skip in the ending and the player can beat him in a spar.

If they need that wow moment in the final level, after defeating Zimming and other chi you, have for a second Ryo start dodging Lan Di as fast as Xiuying. His mind clear as a polished mirror.
 

Tailzo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,070
Shenmue 3 is the only game I miss after selling my ps4 pro. I didn’t sell Shenmue 3 though, so I’ll hopefully play it again on playstation 5.
 

dedge

Member
Sep 15, 2019
556
It wouldn't be much more than a marketing gimmick, but it would be cool if the next game was bundled as Shenmue IV and V. Basically just splitting one game over two, but it would allow one of the them to have the more dense Shenmue experience of exploration and then we can have a time jump with more of a focus on story beats hitting one after another (or the other way around). I don't even mean for 2 full games of content released at once, but if you took the average Shenmue III time of 25 hours, say 15 hours is Shenmue IV and 10~ hours is Shenmue V.

Maybe the division would let them skip around a bit while still getting everything in. I think personally, I would prefer skips and getting the full story versus them just altering and condensing things. I think marketing it as two games in one package, and the conclusion, might help the optics. But again it's impossible to say without knowing how far we are from the end I guess.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
It's in Niaowu. IIRC it's 5,000 yuan. Just start picking every herb you see, buy lots of stuff, sell it, and you should have no issues by the time it arises.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
It wouldn't be much more than a marketing gimmick, but it would be cool if the next game was bundled as Shenmue IV and V. Basically just splitting one game over two, but it would allow one of the them to have the more dense Shenmue experience of exploration and then we can have a time jump with more of a focus on story beats hitting one after another (or the other way around). I don't even mean for 2 full games of content released at once, but if you took the average Shenmue III time of 25 hours, say 15 hours is Shenmue IV and 10~ hours is Shenmue V.

Maybe the division would let them skip around a bit while still getting everything in. I think personally, I would prefer skips and getting the full story versus them just altering and condensing things. I think marketing it as two games in one package, and the conclusion, might help the optics. But again it's impossible to say without knowing how far we are from the end I guess.
I think the best way to get people hyped would be conclusion, the nostalgia of returning to Yokosuka 'the scouring of the shire' in the 2nd half and the old battle system if they can manage it.

I really don't think we can get a 5, 4 would be lucky and 3 had the kickstarter buzz, so might as well be really creative and do the 'Serenity' of the series and give the fans some closure if they're allowed to do 4.
 

Raoh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,842
I think the best way to get people hyped would be conclusion, the nostalgia of returning to Yokosuka 'the scouring of the shire' in the 2nd half and the old battle system if they can manage it.

I really don't think we can get a 5, 4 would be lucky and 3 had the kickstarter buzz, so might as well be really creative and do the 'Serenity' of the series and give the fans some closure if they're allowed to do 4.
I dont like the idea of Shenmue ending in 4, but its the best for everyone. Just wish he would incorporate a Virtua fighter engine from the recent ones for the combat of Shenmue, it would be so legit.
 

IronicSonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,885
If Suzuki gets similar budget for IV, I can't see him finishing the series with 2 or 3 more locations in the next game even if one of those is Yokosuka.
This is a budget related problem, that impact the overall vision of the game.
You can always make a time jump but at what cost
 

dedge

Member
Sep 15, 2019
556
If Suzuki get similar budget for IV, I can't see him finishing the series with 2 or 3 more locations in the next game even if one of those is Yokosuka.
This is a budget related problem, that impact the overall vision of the game.
You can always make a time jump but at what cost
I fear Shenmue will always be cursed between the ambition that video games can allow, and the business justifications behind their creation.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
I think they just need to make a very linear Shenmue that cuts out all the fat and focuses on the rest of the story if they're only getting one more game out of the series. I love the immersion and sense of place these things create, but I can live without Smart Ball, Lucky Hit, turtle racing, etc. on every street corner. I had very little interest entering the shops in Niaowu when I realized they serve very little purpose outside of having stuff to sell at the pawn shop. Why not just offer a handful of shops per area if that is all we're going to get out of them? Same goes for the arcades. We've got four or five arcades that all basically contain the same games. Do we really need Ys Net to duplicate these things if they're getting by on a tight budget? Would also help in cutting down expenses for another game. Look at Yakuza. You only get to go into so many stores/restaurants.

I think there's a stubbornness from the developer that is getting in the way of finishing the series. Shenmue 3 doesn't make the case--to me--that this series needs another two or three games to end. They could've moved things along much better in Shenmue 3. Most of the game is in service of wasting time.
 
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dedge

Member
Sep 15, 2019
556
I think they just need to make a very linear Shenmue that cuts out all the fat and focuses on the rest of the story if they're only getting one more game out of the series. I love the but I can live without Smart Ball, Lucky Hit, turtle racing, etc. on every street corner. I had very little interest entering the shops in Niaowu when I realized they serve very little purpose outside of having stuff to sell at the pawn shop. Why not just offer a handful of shops per area if that is all we're going to get out of them? Same goes for the arcades. We've got four or five arcades that all basically contain the same games. Do we really need Ys Net to duplicate these things if they're getting by on a tight budget? Would also help in cutting down expenses for another game. Look at Yakuza. You only get to go into so many stores/restaurants.

I think there's a stubbornness from the developer that is getting in the way of finishing the series. Shenmue 3 doesn't make the case--to me--that this series needs another two or three games to end. They could've moved things along much better in Shenmue 3. Most of the game is in service of wasting time.
I would agree that it can be time to cut the fat on certain things and that linear is the way to go. I love all the extras and immersion but it's okay if those things are absent if the actual story is there. And for all the things that add immersion, eating individual food ingredients every few minutes to build up stamina is an immersion breaker when I'm eating 5 pieces of garlic or something.
 

IronicSonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,885
I don't think duplicate arcade locations is the more expensive development of a Shenmue game.

Even if they decided make more linear Shenmue III, they cant finish the story within Bailu and Niaowu. The story progression just wouldn't work. I think Suzuki thought "I have budget for 2 big areas. How far I can get with the story", hoping that SIII will succeed and get a better shot at SIV. It was a gamble? Sure it was!
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
I think modeling separate areas/interiors that serve no real function is a waste of money. Why do we need an arcade in Bailu? Why do we need multiple arcades in Niaowu? Each one requires resources, even if the actual gameplay within is the same. They could've saved money in a hundred different ways. I just see tons of bloat in Shenmue 3. I don't think anyone's upset there are mini games and shops, but I also don't think anyone would be upset if Ys Net had reduced their focus on those things and focused more on storytelling, cinematic, better writing, original music, etc. We're talking about how hard it'd be for Ys Net to finish the saga in four games, but I just think there's a lot of stubbornness getting in the way of reality.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
Nah a Shenmue game needs good towns or don't bother. I'm ok with making compromises like abondoning the outline of the chapters and coming up with a new direction but it should still have the best qualities of the series which is the sense of place.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
You can have a sense of place and still get rid of things that are extraneous and do little to improve the game. You really felt three or four arcades in Niaowu were essential to your Shenmue 3 experience? Or the 100s of shops that served very little purpose outside giving you something to sell at the pawn shop? I think there are ways around these expensive and unnecessary things while still keeping that Shenmue vibe.
 

IronicSonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,885
They could've saved money in a hundred different ways. I just see tons of bloat in Shenmue 3. I don't think anyone's upset there are mini games and shops, but I also don't think anyone would be upset if Ys Net had reduced their focus on those things and focused more on storytelling, cinematic, better writing, original music, etc.
I get what you say. But I think a lot of people would complain if we didn't get a "true Shenmue experience" in the first place.
Also I do think Ys Net cut a lot of corners and saved money.

In the end I think Suzuki made the right calls with SIII, as far as the budget let him
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
You can have a sense of place and still get rid of things that are extraneous and do little to improve the game. You really felt three or four arcades in Niaowu were essential to your Shenmue 3 experience? Or the 100s of shops that served very little purpose outside giving you something to sell at the pawn shop? I think there are ways around these expensive and unnecessary things while still keeping that Shenmue vibe.
It when you compare it to Yakuza where you just walk up to question marks for sidequests, loads of silent NPCs and enemies are everywhere. It never feels like a place to me, even though those games are good for different reasons. I think you still need pointless details to make it Shenmue even if you scale the world down or bring back some old locations.
 

SpitztheGreat

Member
May 16, 2019
2,276
I think the fear that some people have that Yu can't possibly wrap the game up in S4 is unfounded. This story is his creation, he has full artistic control over it. If he were trying to follow some sort of outside piece of fiction where he had to conform to its pacing and story beats, then I could understand the concern over rushing an ending. But Yu has full control. He can make any changes he wants, both large and small. He can move, remove, edit, do absolutely anything to get the story done in one more 20+ hour game. It isn't like he needs to squeeze four hours of story into one 90 minute movie, he has tens of hours to do whatever he wants. This seems like a very basic skillset that he needs to have/develop. You don't get unlimited time and unlimited money to make your creation, everyone has limits and you need to learn how to work with them. Whatever Yu's original plan was for the series, he absolutely should have, and still can, make sweeping changes. The project was already out of control back in Shenmue 1, and probably back during its time on the Saturn, so basically he's gone 20+ years and seemingly not understood the reality of what he's dealing with.

All that said, if he can get the funding for another 20+ hour game, then there's no reason he can't satisfactorily wrap up the story. Maybe he needs to make sweeping changes, but he can do them and do them well. It would be one thing if Shenmue III wrote itself into a corner and needed 60 hours to get out of, but S3 was such a blank slate that it gives him pretty free reign still with the story. If he can't wrap it up in Shenmue 4 then he is straight up a bad director, program manager, and artist.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
I think the fear that some people have that Yu can't possibly wrap the game up in S4 is unfounded. This story is his creation, he has full artistic control over it. If he were trying to follow some sort of outside piece of fiction where he had to conform to its pacing and story beats, then I could understand the concern over rushing an ending. But Yu has full control. He can make any changes he wants, both large and small. He can move, remove, edit, do absolutely anything to get the story done in one more 20+ hour game. It isn't like he needs to squeeze four hours of story into one 90 minute movie, he has tens of hours to do whatever he wants. This seems like a very basic skillset that he needs to have/develop. You don't get unlimited time and unlimited money to make your creation, everyone has limits and you need to learn how to work with them. Whatever Yu's original plan was for the series, he absolutely should have, and still can, make sweeping changes. The project was already out of control back in Shenmue 1, and probably back during its time on the Saturn, so basically he's gone 20+ years and seemingly not understood the reality of what he's dealing with.

All that said, if he can get the funding for another 20+ hour game, then there's no reason he can't satisfactorily wrap up the story. Maybe he needs to make sweeping changes, but he can do them and do them well. It would be one thing if Shenmue III wrote itself into a corner and needed 60 hours to get out of, but S3 was such a blank slate that it gives him pretty free reign still with the story. If he can't wrap it up in Shenmue 4 then he is straight up a bad director, program manager, and artist.
Exactly. He was on top of the world when he envisioned Shenmue as a 6-game epic. Circumstances have seriously changed. I sincerely doubt the Shenmue 3 we played is the Shenmue 3 he'd envisioned in 1999, so it's not like he isn't already compromising. In my opinion, he did not prove Shenmue requires multiple games to satisfy our curiosity. Shenmue 3 suffers from a severe dearth of storytelling & action. Time to bring the story home.
 

Guymelef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Spain
FUCK this game trophies.
After hours of farming etc... I had the herbs trophy for Nyowu, I sold the herbs for money and now I don't have a single Huang Qin Root wich I need for the subquest...
So now I have to start a new game (and seems that New game+ doesn't work because collected herbs doen't respawn) just to make all subquests again and get the trophy...
FUCK this game design.
 

IronicSonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,885
All that said, if he can get the funding for another 20+ hour game, then there's no reason he can't satisfactorily wrap up the story. Maybe he needs to make sweeping changes
I mean Suzuki can bring all Shenmue 2/3 gang to Yokosuka in a single final chapter if he want to and show how Ryo's ass is kicked by Lan Di while Fuku-San and Ine-San are watching but would that make any sense?
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
Lan Di is the trickiest part to wrap up in the plot because he outclasses Ryo but they can still make something up like he goes into a rage when he finds out why his father died and loses his faith in the Chi You, and Ryo takes adavantage of it. We don't know that much about Lan Di's personality other than he's very calm and collected on the surface and 1 game is enough to foreshadow and show what pychologocical weakness.

The only other thing they have to do is show the connection between the mirrors, the families and Yuadha Zhu, which might not be that complicated as it's mostly backstory and why the mirrors will back fire on the Chi You men if they use them.
 

SpitztheGreat

Member
May 16, 2019
2,276
I mean Suzuki can bring all Shenmue 2/3 gang to Yokosuka if he want to and show how Ryo's ass is kicked by Lan Di while Fuku-San and Ine-San are watching but would that make any sense?
Why are we hung up on Yokosuka? There's nothing saying that we have to go back at all. There's nothing saying that the game MUST end with Ryo winning a fist fight. Personally, I don't care if we ever see Japan, Nazomi, Fuku, Ine-San ever again. Yu does not need to be a slave to nostalgia, he needs to be a slave to telling a good story and doing it efficiently. Maybe Ryo was originally intended to go back to Japan, but maybe that's too much to fit into the game, but maybe it also makes sense to change the story that Ryo is actually happiest in China and finds a life there that he never had back in Japan. Maybe we never revisit any of the characters from S1 and S2 even though that was the original intent. People come and go from your life all the time, we don't get to say goodbye to all of them. Just because the game got its start as a Virtua Fighter RPG doesn't mean that Ryo's character needs to stay on that path mindlessly. Perhaps it makes more sense to take the story in a different direction.

Whatever preconceived notions we have about the story, I think we need to drop them all.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
Why are we hung up on Yokosuka? There's nothing saying that we have to go back at all. There's nothing saying that the game MUST end with Ryo winning a fist fight. Personally, I don't care if we ever see Japan, Nazomi, Fuku, Ine-San ever again. Yu does not need to be a slave to nostalgia, he needs to be a slave to telling a good story and doing it efficiently. Maybe Ryo was originally intended to go back to Japan, but maybe that's too much to fit into the game, but maybe it also makes sense to change the story that Ryo is actually happiest in China and finds a life there that he never had back in Japan. Maybe we never revisit any of the characters from S1 and S2 even though that was the original intent. People come and go from your life all the time, we don't get to say goodbye to all of them. Just because the game got its start as a Virtua Fighter RPG doesn't mean that Ryo's character needs to stay on that path mindlessly. Perhaps it makes more sense to take the story in a different direction.

Whatever preconceived notions we have about the story, I think we need to drop them all.
I think that might have been me suggested Baisha Village or another town as the first half/sorting out
Sun, cliff temple, resolving lore
and second half, (saving money on imagining new cities), returning to Yokosuka, coming up with a reason to do like a Witcher's 'Battle of Kaer Morhen' and do the emotional Lan Di pay off and you defeat him in some spiritual way. Maybe then an epilogue... if you really need to defeat Lan Di, where they spar like their fathers. It would make more sense in context, it just structure.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,195
I think the fear that some people have that Yu can't possibly wrap the game up in S4 is unfounded. This story is his creation, he has full artistic control over it. If he were trying to follow some sort of outside piece of fiction where he had to conform to its pacing and story beats, then I could understand the concern over rushing an ending. But Yu has full control. He can make any changes he wants, both large and small. He can move, remove, edit, do absolutely anything to get the story done in one more 20+ hour game. It isn't like he needs to squeeze four hours of story into one 90 minute movie, he has tens of hours to do whatever he wants. This seems like a very basic skillset that he needs to have/develop. You don't get unlimited time and unlimited money to make your creation, everyone has limits and you need to learn how to work with them. Whatever Yu's original plan was for the series, he absolutely should have, and still can, make sweeping changes. The project was already out of control back in Shenmue 1, and probably back during its time on the Saturn, so basically he's gone 20+ years and seemingly not understood the reality of what he's dealing with.

All that said, if he can get the funding for another 20+ hour game, then there's no reason he can't satisfactorily wrap up the story. Maybe he needs to make sweeping changes, but he can do them and do them well. It would be one thing if Shenmue III wrote itself into a corner and needed 60 hours to get out of, but S3 was such a blank slate that it gives him pretty free reign still with the story. If he can't wrap it up in Shenmue 4 then he is straight up a bad director, program manager, and artist.

After 3, any closure in 4 would be super rushed. You cant, you just cant cover all the rest in a 25 to 30 hours game. There's just too much to cover and there'll be too much to remove. If 3 did move things in a meaningful way ? Sure. But it didn't. If anything, it just delayed things.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
After 3, any closure in 4 would be super rushed. You cant, you just cant cover all the rest in a 25 to 30 hours game. There's just too much to cover and there'll be too much to remove. If 3 did move things in a meaningful way ? Sure. But it didn't. If anything, it just delayed things.
Disagree. They're
already headed to Chi You territory, the cliff temple and the organisation may be already on the path to self destruction with their leaders fighting. They can do that like the yellow head building and defeat her there or she destroys herself with the mirrors, and she steals the dragon mirror from Lan Di's vault or whatever puts the pieces into place.
When Shenmue 3 was not revealed as the finale, I was ok like because you just met Shenhua and she needed time to develop before doing a finale. Shenmue 4 doesn't have that same reason. The only characters than need resolution are Ryo, Shenhua, Ren, Xiuying, Zimming and Lan Di but it's primarily 3 characters.

Again Lan Di is the trickiest part because he's the ultimate confrontation, but all the Xiuying scenes in Shenmue 2 could be used suggest the final encounter with Lan Di might not even be about beating him to a pulp, it might be about reversing the situation so Ryo is as cool as Xiuying was and Lan Di becomes as reckless and ignorant as Ryo was, when it comes to what Chi You may have done to his father and whether he can control whatever is in the treasure.

You also have Zimming but you can make something up and Xiyuing gets the info and meets up. Zimming could also be used as a vulnerability for Lan Di.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,195
Disagree. They're
already headed to Chi You territory, the cliff temple and the organisation may be already on the path to self destruction with their leaders fighting. They can do that like the yellow head building and defeat her there or she destroys herself with the mirrors, and she steals the dragon mirror from Lan Di's vault or whatever puts the pieces into place.
When Shenmue 3 was not revealed as the finale, I was ok like because you just met Shenhua and she needed time to develop before doing a finale. Shenmue 4 doesn't have that same reason. The only characters than need resolution are Ryo, Shenhua, Ren, Xiuying, Zimming and Lan Di but it's primarily 3 characters.

Again Lan Di is the trickiest part because he's the ultimate confrontation, but all the Xiuying scenes in Shenmue 2 could be used suggest the final encounter with Lan Di might not even be about beating him to a pulp, it might be about reversing the situation so Ryo is as cool as Xiuying was and Lan Di becomes as reckless and ignorant as Ryo was, when it comes to what Chi You may have done to his father and whether he can control whatever is in the treasure.

You also have Zimming but you can make something up and Xiyuing gets the info and meets up. Zimming could also be used as a vulnerability for Lan Di.


Here's what needs to be adressed:
- Shenhua's mystery (powers ? No powers ?)
- The poem and their destiny
- The treasure of the mirrors
- What happened to Lan Di's father
- Why Iwao took the mirrors
- The Chi You Men (who's their boss, what are they seeking and why)
- Lan Di's past
- Zimming and Xiuying
- Ren
- Ryo's character growth
- Niao Sun and the others Chi You Men (there's supposed to be 2 more leaders)
- Ryo and Lan Di's fight

And I'm certainly missing a lot here. Shenmue 3 managed to do so little that 4 can only act as a 3rd episode. With all the stuff listed, you cant cover it in a single game. As Yu Suzuki said, story is at 40%. Even if Shenmue 3 amounted for 5%, that'd require 4 to cover more than 2 games altogether.

You cant wrap up the story in one game. It wasn't possible with 3 and considering 3 wasn't good in that department, it's even more difficult for 4.
 

SpitztheGreat

Member
May 16, 2019
2,276
After 3, any closure in 4 would be super rushed. You cant, you just cant cover all the rest in a 25 to 30 hours game. There's just too much to cover and there'll be too much to remove. If 3 did move things in a meaningful way ? Sure. But it didn't. If anything, it just delayed things.
What are your expectations for how the story ends? Are you expecting a full reunion in Japan?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,195
What are your expectations for how the story ends? Are you expecting a full reunion in Japan?

Nah, not even that. I'm expecting it to end in Ryo's victory on whatever main antagonist there is. But the thing is, even that cant be wrapped up in a single game without feeling rushed. Heck even 3 which was supposed to developp Shenhua and Ryo did a piss poor job at it.

Shenmue II did a far better job at it in CD4 than the entirety of 3.
 

J2 Cool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,225
I think they just need to make a very linear Shenmue that cuts out all the fat and focuses on the rest of the story if they're only getting one more game out of the series. I love the immersion and sense of place these things create, but I can live without Smart Ball, Lucky Hit, turtle racing, etc. on every street corner. I had very little interest entering the shops in Niaowu when I realized they serve very little purpose outside of having stuff to sell at the pawn shop. Why not just offer a handful of shops per area if that is all we're going to get out of them? Same goes for the arcades. We've got four or five arcades that all basically contain the same games. Do we really need Ys Net to duplicate these things if they're getting by on a tight budget? Would also help in cutting down expenses for another game. Look at Yakuza. You only get to go into so many stores/restaurants.

I think there's a stubbornness from the developer that is getting in the way of finishing the series. Shenmue 3 doesn't make the case--to me--that this series needs another two or three games to end. They could've moved things along much better in Shenmue 3. Most of the game is in service of wasting time.
I think multiple arcades and all that...was just busywork handed to his team, and a lack of knowing quite what to do with the story and how to progress it. And at the same time, they were fulfilling what they felt was an obligation to fans, and they were stuffing the game with "content". Yu's talk about "I don't know what it is, but fans love the forklifts. So we've included those in the game" and other similar comments, seemed to suggest arbitrary decisions being made. The "Save Shenmue" building itself not only is a waste of time, effort, assets, it also serves to break immersion in the game.

Yet meanwhile, hold moves had to suffer from "not enough time" or budget. Learning a different move in Niaowu to defeat the boss, instead of a variation on the Bailu move could have added something as well. The fact that a lot of the Shenmue open world, was a redundant and lesser version of Shenmue 1 and 2, also suggests a better use of that energy would be expanding the story breadth of Shenmue 3. Have most of its set pieces built in support of the story. I mean, you had Corey Marshall. That's its own stroke of luck for continuing the story, but I'm not sure Yu knew quite where it was going next.
 
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♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
Here's what needs to be adressed:
- Shenhua's mystery (powers ? No powers ?)
- The poem and their destiny
- The treasure of the mirrors
- What happened to Lan Di's father
- Why Iwao took the mirrors
- The Chi You Men (who's their boss, what are they seeking and why)
- Lan Di's past
- Zimming and Xiuying
- Ren
- Ryo's character growth
- Niao Sun and the others Chi You Men (there's supposed to be 2 more leaders)
- Ryo and Lan Di's fight

And I'm certainly missing a lot here. Shenmue 3 managed to do so little that 4 can only act as a 3rd episode. With all the stuff listed, you cant cover it in a single game. As Yu Suzuki said, story is at 40%. Even if Shenmue 3 amounted for 5%, that'd require 4 to cover more than 2 games altogether.

You cant wrap up the story in one game. It wasn't possible with 3 and considering 3 wasn't good in that department, it's even more difficult for 4.


They can say Shenhua is a secret granchild of an old emperor and on her mum's family tree were some kind of spirtualists
the emperor visited Bailu Village
Shenhua might be the daughter of a phoenix, her mum and her grandfather, a dragon and the mirrors were built for her family, but she reject the prophecies and destiny. The theme I guess would be about letting go. Ryo/Lan Di lets go of their revenge for their fathers' murders
If Lan Di was taken as a child by the Chi You and they killed his dad, he may change his ways
Shenhua lets go her family's destiny for her because the old empire is gone. Ren lets go of treasure. Sun can't let go of power and is destroyed by the mirrors and other chi you officers (who don't have to be important). Xiuying may be forced to kill her brother if he's too far gone and save her friends "to act without hesitation, to do what is right" and let go of the idea that he's the brother she grew up with.

The Chi You men could be explained by a few lines, as descendants of the exiles of the old empire, because they were a cult of death which is what the Chi You god may be and you connect it to the theme of letting go and they can't let go of revenge for the banishment of their fathers.

You can explain plenty of this by elders, scriptures or Chi You explaining it since Ryo is headed to an important place
near the cliff temple
I think you can answer multiple questions at once and connect it up in one game and with one cohesive theme so it's not as complicated as it may seem. I think you would probably need at least two towns and maybe two strongholds for where some of the mirrors are hidden or used.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,195


They can say Shenhua is a secret granchild of an old emperor and on her mum's family tree were some kind of spirtualists
the emperor visited Bailu Village
Shenhua might be the daughter of a phoenix, her mum and her grandfather, a dragon and the mirrors were built for her family, but she reject the prophecies and destiny. The theme I guess would be about letting go. Ryo/Lan Di lets go of their revenge for their fathers' murders
If Lan Di was taken as a child by the Chi You and they killed his dad, he may change his ways
Shenhua lets go her family's destiny for her because the old empire is gone. Ren lets go of treasure. Sun can't let go of power and is destroyed by the mirrors and other chi you officers (who don't have to be important). Xiuying may be forced to kill her brother if he's too far gone and save her friends "to act without hesitation, to do what is right" and let go of the idea that he's the brother she grew up with.

The Chi You men could be explained by a few lines, as descendants of the exiles of the old empire, because they were a cult of death which is what the Chi You god may be and you connect it to the theme of letting go and they can't let go of revenge for the banishment of their fathers.

You can explain plenty of this by elders, scriptures or Chi You explaining it since Ryo is headed to an important place
near the cliff temple
I think you can answer multiple questions at once and connect it up in one game and with one cohesive theme so it's not as complicated as it may seem. I think you would probably need at least two towns and maybe two strongholds for where some of the mirrors go.



A few lines means being rushed.
It's just as I said : Either rush it af or dont adress it. 4 wont be enough.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
A few lines means being rushed.
It's just as I said : Either rush it af or dont adress it. 4 wont be enough.
I think you can explain lore of the Chi You's origins in a few lines, a few conversations and explaining the family histories, just as long as the emotional pay offs makes sense. Then it wouldn't feel rushed. You have something like the original SW films that often told the lore in simple ways but it told you use just what you needed to know. For the most part it worked.

I think I did a reasonable job explaining how the emotional pay offs could connect. And I think Shenhua could destroy the mirrors and free whatever spirits are trapped in there by her family, rejecting what maybe her family treasure and defying the prophesies but it would have enough lore established throughout that last game to earn it.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
I think multiple arcades and all that...was just busywork handed to his team,, and a lack of knowing quite what to do with the story and how to progress it. And at the same time, they were fulfilling what they felt was an obligation to fans, and they were stuffing the game with "content". Yu's talk about "I don't know what it is, but fans love the forklifts. So we've included those in the game" and other similar comments, seemed to suggest arbitrary decisions being made. The "Save Shenmue" building itself not only is a waste of time, effort, assets, it also serves to break immersion in the game.

Yet meanwhile, hold moves had to suffer from "not enough time" or budget. Learning a different move in Niaowu to defeat the boss, instead of a variation on the Bailu move could have added something as well. The fact that a lot of the Shenmue open world, was a redundant and lesser version of Shenmue 1 and 2, also suggests a better use of that energy being would be expanding the story breadth of Shenmue 3. Have most of its set pieces built in support of the story. I mean, you had Corey Marshall. That's its own stroke of luck for continuing the story, but I'm not sure Yu knew quite where it was going next.
youve nailed my issue. It feels like they didn’t really prioritize anything and just threw a bunch of random stuff at the wall. I feel like Shenmue 3 lacks an identity and sense of purpose compared to the first two games.
 

SpitztheGreat

Member
May 16, 2019
2,276
Here's what needs to be adressed:
- Shenhua's mystery (powers ? No powers ?)
- The poem and their destiny
- The treasure of the mirrors
- What happened to Lan Di's father
- Why Iwao took the mirrors
- The Chi You Men (who's their boss, what are they seeking and why)
- Lan Di's past
- Zimming and Xiuying
- Ren
- Ryo's character growth
- Niao Sun and the others Chi You Men (there's supposed to be 2 more leaders)
- Ryo and Lan Di's fight

And I'm certainly missing a lot here. Shenmue 3 managed to do so little that 4 can only act as a 3rd episode. With all the stuff listed, you cant cover it in a single game. As Yu Suzuki said, story is at 40%. Even if Shenmue 3 amounted for 5%, that'd require 4 to cover more than 2 games altogether.

You cant wrap up the story in one game. It wasn't possible with 3 and considering 3 wasn't good in that department, it's even more difficult for 4.
None of this is impossible to wrap up in one 20-30 hour game.

Shenhua's powers, the Poem, Chi You- All of these mystical elements will never ever be fully explained because that would ruin all of the fun of it. Do you like midchlorians controlling the Force? Because that's what happens when you try to fully explain magic. Let magic be magic.

The mirrors- This one does need more explanation, but they're also magic, so my expectations are low. This is going to be the Numbers Station from Lost all over again, largely a McGuffin to move the story of revenge forward.

What happened to Lan Di's Father, Lan Di's past, Why Iwao took the mirrors- We don't need 30 hours of exposition on this. Literally one cut scene can explain what happened to Lan Di's father, and what Lan Di did after. It isn't so important for us to know where Lan Di was, just that it brought him to Japan to seek revenge on Iowa. It will also be made very clear why Iwao took the mirrors when we learn about these issues and the mirrors themselves, this shouldn't take too long. "The mirrors are the key to great power and Iwao knew they couldn't fall into Chi You's hands, so he took them back to Japan where he thought they would be safe."

Ren and the other Chi You Men- Cut this right out of the script, or give it minimal attention. Lan Di is the big bad, we don't need superfluous characters anymore. Ren is a simple thief, and while he's a good character I wouldn't waste any resources on him when we need to do the following at all cost:

Ryo's character development- If we get 30 hours of character development of Ryo that will be more than enough. This is the number 1 thing that we need because it ties in directly to the story.

Ryo and Lan Di fight- There are a million ways to get around the awkwardness that Ryo can't beat Lan Di right now. If this story is ever going to be more than a 5th grader's fantasy about revenge then Ryo needs to learn that his single minded quest for revenge is shallow and misses the bigger issues at play. If Yu's final vision is that Ryo saves the say in a fist fight with Lan Di then I will be sorely disappointed.

Zimming and Xiuying- handle this off screen. While these two are more important than Ren and the other Chi You leaders we haven't met, they are also cuttable. I see no reason that this story line should take up any sort of time at the expense of other stories.

So none of that seems like it can't be accomplished in a 30 hour game. This isn't the most complicated story ever told, 15 minutes talking about Zimming and Xiuying seems like plenty considering they're secondary characters.

Now, if you're expecting to get the full Shenmue exploratory feel, then that's where we run into problems. You can't have a 30 hour game where Yu wants you to play endless games of Lucky Strike and pale toss. All of the above is easy to cover in one game, but you have to make compromises in the world building. If you aren't willing to do that then you probably can't tell the whole story in Shenmue IV, and that would be a mistake.

I would be willing to make the game damn near linear if Yu went full on with the story. After three games I've played enough lucky strike for a life time, I've gone into random shops that serve no purpose other than atmosphere, I've spoken to terribly voice acted NPCs who only speak in non sequiturs. I have no interest in following tiny leads and facing down NPCs that don't amount to anything important, just so I can follow some more tiny leads. Ryo is on a mission and we need to be laser focused on that mission from here out.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,449
None of this is impossible to wrap up in one 20-30 hour game.

Shenhua's powers, the Poem, Chi You- All of these mystical elements will never ever be fully explained because that would ruin all of the fun of it. Do you like midchlorians controlling the Force? Because that's what happens when you try to fully explain magic. Let magic be magic.

The mirrors- This one does need more explanation, but they're also magic, so my expectations are low. This is going to be the Numbers Station from Lost all over again, largely a McGuffin to move the story of revenge forward.

What happened to Lan Di's Father, Lan Di's past, Why Iwao took the mirrors- We don't need 30 hours of exposition on this. Literally one cut scene can explain what happened to Lan Di's father, and what Lan Di did after. It isn't so important for us to know where Lan Di was, just that it brought him to Japan to seek revenge on Iowa. It will also be made very clear why Iwao took the mirrors when we learn about these issues and the mirrors themselves, this shouldn't take too long. "The mirrors are the key to great power and Iwao knew they couldn't fall into Chi You's hands, so he took them back to Japan where he thought they would be safe."

Ren and the other Chi You Men- Cut this right out of the script, or give it minimal attention. Lan Di is the big bad, we don't need superfluous characters anymore. Ren is a simple thief, and while he's a good character I wouldn't waste any resources on him when we need to do the following at all cost:

Ryo's character development- If we get 30 hours of character development of Ryo that will be more than enough. This is the number 1 thing that we need because it ties in directly to the story.

Ryo and Lan Di fight- There are a million ways to get around the awkwardness that Ryo can't beat Lan Di right now. If this story is ever going to be more than a 5th grader's fantasy about revenge then Ryo needs to learn that his single minded quest for revenge is shallow and misses the bigger issues at play. If Yu's final vision is that Ryo saves the say in a fist fight with Lan Di then I will be sorely disappointed.

Zimming and Xiuying- handle this off screen. While these two are more important than Ren and the other Chi You leaders we haven't met, they are also cuttable. I see no reason that this story line should take up any sort of time at the expense of other stories.

So none of that seems like it can't be accomplished in a 30 hour game. This isn't the most complicated story ever told, 15 minutes talking about Zimming and Xiuying seems like plenty considering they're secondary characters.

Now, if you're expecting to get the full Shenmue exploratory feel, then that's where we run into problems. You can't have a 30 hour game where Yu wants you to play endless games of Lucky Strike and pale toss. All of the above is easy to cover in one game, but you have to make compromises in the world building. If you aren't willing to do that then you probably can't tell the whole story in Shenmue IV, and that would be a mistake.

I would be willing to make the game damn near linear if Yu went full on with the story. After three games I've played enough lucky strike for a life time, I've gone into random shops that serve no purpose other than atmosphere, I've spoken to terribly voice acted NPCs who only speak in non sequiturs. I have no interest in following tiny leads and facing down NPCs that don't amount to anything important, just so I can follow some more tiny leads. Ryo is on a mission and we need to be laser focused on that mission from here out.
Yep. If you want to finish the series, accept compromise. We’ve already lost throws, which I think was a bad compromise. I’m sure we can limit the stores we can walk into, etc. if we truly want to get this series to its final conclusion.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
None of this is impossible to wrap up in one 20-30 hour game.

Shenhua's powers, the Poem, Chi You- All of these mystical elements will never ever be fully explained because that would ruin all of the fun of it. Do you like midchlorians controlling the Force? Because that's what happens when you try to fully explain magic. Let magic be magic.

The mirrors- This one does need more explanation, but they're also magic, so my expectations are low. This is going to be the Numbers Station from Lost all over again, largely a McGuffin to move the story of revenge forward.

What happened to Lan Di's Father, Lan Di's past, Why Iwao took the mirrors- We don't need 30 hours of exposition on this. Literally one cut scene can explain what happened to Lan Di's father, and what Lan Di did after. It isn't so important for us to know where Lan Di was, just that it brought him to Japan to seek revenge on Iowa. It will also be made very clear why Iwao took the mirrors when we learn about these issues and the mirrors themselves, this shouldn't take too long. "The mirrors are the key to great power and Iwao knew they couldn't fall into Chi You's hands, so he took them back to Japan where he thought they would be safe."

Ren and the other Chi You Men- Cut this right out of the script, or give it minimal attention. Lan Di is the big bad, we don't need superfluous characters anymore. Ren is a simple thief, and while he's a good character I wouldn't waste any resources on him when we need to do the following at all cost:

Ryo's character development- If we get 30 hours of character development of Ryo that will be more than enough. This is the number 1 thing that we need because it ties in directly to the story.

Ryo and Lan Di fight- There are a million ways to get around the awkwardness that Ryo can't beat Lan Di right now. If this story is ever going to be more than a 5th grader's fantasy about revenge then Ryo needs to learn that his single minded quest for revenge is shallow and misses the bigger issues at play. If Yu's final vision is that Ryo saves the say in a fist fight with Lan Di then I will be sorely disappointed.

Zimming and Xiuying- handle this off screen. While these two are more important than Ren and the other Chi You leaders we haven't met, they are also cuttable. I see no reason that this story line should take up any sort of time at the expense of other stories.

So none of that seems like it can't be accomplished in a 30 hour game. This isn't the most complicated story ever told, 15 minutes talking about Zimming and Xiuying seems like plenty considering they're secondary characters.

Now, if you're expecting to get the full Shenmue exploratory feel, then that's where we run into problems. You can't have a 30 hour game where Yu wants you to play endless games of Lucky Strike and pale toss. All of the above is easy to cover in one game, but you have to make compromises in the world building. If you aren't willing to do that then you probably can't tell the whole story in Shenmue IV, and that would be a mistake.

I would be willing to make the game damn near linear if Yu went full on with the story. After three games I've played enough lucky strike for a life time, I've gone into random shops that serve no purpose other than atmosphere, I've spoken to terribly voice acted NPCs who only speak in non sequiturs. I have no interest in following tiny leads and facing down NPCs that don't amount to anything important, just so I can follow some more tiny leads. Ryo is on a mission and we need to be laser focused on that mission from here out.
Zimming sounds easy to me, just phone his sister or another character contacts her and honestly it would be really effective and heartbreaking if she's forced to kill him to save her friends. There's always a couple of secondary antagonists anyway. It said in her temple when Ryo scrubs out the the wall, DAN "To act without hesitation, to do what is right” which would be nice foreshadowing. The series doesn't like to celebrate murder but I wouldn't mind if they made it more ambiguous since Ryo may have alredy killed Do Niu. Xiuying has to learn to live with herself making a decision she hates, of course like Yin/Yang, darkness and light inside her.

I would have Zimming as Lan Di's second in command
if he creates a new and smaller faction after Sun left him to die
I don't think you need to explain how the phoenix and dragon may be inside the mirrors, mysticism is cool but I think you have to reveal
why the old empire may have ordered them and like I said maybe connect it to a theme of letting go, destroy the mirrors, release their power and let the last hope of the old empire die. No one gets the the treasure or their revenge and the only person who may kill someone maybe doesn't even want to.
 

Raoh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,842
I'd rather we get a good send off in Shenmue 4, with amazing combat (throws back in) instead of them focusing too hard on the story.

It's not going to be super deep, convoluted or anything the overall story, it's not something they should focus imho. So if S4 is the end, i'd rather them just doing a really fun replayable experience.
 

AmirMoosavi

Member
Dec 10, 2018
325
All I want is the manga now. Never thought I'd say that. The moment-to-moment storytelling was so poorly executed in III that I have no hope for the plot in a IV on a shoestring budget.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
All I want is the manga now. Never thought I'd say that. The moment-to-moment storytelling was so poorly executed in III that I have no hope for the plot in a IV on a shoestring budget.
I'd rather still have 4, the stories always ranged from goofy to poignant, but overall they were fun experiences.There's no appeal in a book finising the story, there has to be some kind of journey if you do a 4th or final one.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,239
looking forward to giving that a shot next week then. More Shenmue is never a bad thing! Still not tried the Battle Rally stuff yet!