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Shenmue III |OT| Our Destiny Since Ancient Times
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
You need to go around and buy the cheapest version of those items. I failed the quest because I bought a fan which cost 26 yen when there was another souvenir shop that I missed that should have had it cheaper.
I feared as much. I failed it first time just buying the stuff as soon as I came across it and I'm not sure if the Blue Feather Fan was the correct one anyway. Fortunately I'd saved just before taking the quest so was able to reload.
What is your favourite Shenmue town? I think Wan Chai for me, visiting the mall and arcade of the golden QRt, sparring Jianmin in the park or walking up the steps of Scarlet Hills.
I see these are the main town areas
Yokosuka town, Yokosuka Harbour
Aberdeen, Wan Chai, Kowloon
Bailu Village, Niaowu
I love them all
I see these are the main town areas
Yokosuka town, Yokosuka Harbour
Aberdeen, Wan Chai, Kowloon
Bailu Village, Niaowu
I love them all
The problem with videogame forums have always been people, that in a very direct sense have no idea how anything works, want the worst possible thing for themselves, and then go crusading for that, and argue feelz based.
Now thats the real nostalgia. So glad nothing changed.
Also - I might have found what games media means by 'feels like an old game' (because they never describe what they mean by it). I actually believe, that no current videogames critic has ever played a videogame that cost less than 40 Mill to make.
They've never played in the era of 'budget productions', all they ever experienced were sequels and reboots mostly (which PR told them where better because, and then they copied PR sheet into reviews). And to be considered edgy they followed the plattformholders suggestions to also play a 2.5D indy title, once in a while. Thats it, what they mean by 'game feels old' (despite it having changed four of its gameplay mechanics replaced with more current ones, despite having included quality of live stuff, despite having seriously tweaked the time attain any clue, withing the core game loop - but they dont see that, they see production value - and thats what they are reviewing).
Just read a review from german former news magazine the Spiegel, that I probably shouldnt have.
Game journalism doesnt have to have pedigry - its always been a youth interest format, as it is run in the US. And so the generation thats on the wheel right now never experienced low budget productions.
They played Hellblade, which was a Corridor Brawler - and thought, jup - thats a proper game, because - looks. And it wasnt any less complex than their usual corridor shooter, and it had gore and an edgy plot topic, so they were pleased.
They dont realize what goes into the production of world detail in the amount you see in Shenmue III ("Worst GTA I've ever played, dialogues so shallow (while the NPCs are the most deeply realized in the industry even at todays standards) - 2 stars") - heck, there are people on reddit boasting that they didnt even look at one shop in the second era of the game (where the game guides you to also look at detail level for a while).
So, reviewers dont know any of the mechanics (what do you mean by herb collecting herbs game loop, or game loop in general even, endurance mechanic, gow style fighting system, ...), dont know the limitations of the engine, dont know anything about storytelling, tropes, dont know anything about the business (who is voicing videogames f.e.), dont know anything about world design or the usual detail level of open world games, but are actively engaged in writing down the first 'independant style' budget title they have played in their lifes - and that wasnt an outright indie.
Thats what they are classifying as feeling old.
Thats it.
They all faked that they played Deadly Premonition anyhow. ;) They only experienced Resident Evil 2 as a remaster.. And dont get that if you have art and assents, and systems and outline, and an engine and tools, and ... Game design is cheeper.
The notion, that to create something on a lower level budget - and call it a videogame - is entirely alien to them.
To them game quality is directly connected to budget.
Geoff Keighley (Doritos spokesperson) won.
They cant identify budget production gems anymore, because they've never experience budget games. Even though they are out there. There are entire genres of them - still... (The adventure genre most prominently.)
And indeed, this is a problem. Because if people can argue, that menu design, and lack of mocap "ruined this game" - it means, that they will never - in their lives - come to like something that wasnt touched by a 300 person studio. Or - on the other spectrum - was produced by one guy trowing hail marries in a basement (indie projects). (Which was glamorized - by platform holders - as 'the new artsy game scene' - because they themselves killed all smaller projects, because of rising production costs.)
Its actually a sad notion.
Switch as a whole (where you can also play some of the most jank games this generation) they somehow - compartmentalized as something different mentally. To them its probably 'a handheld system'. ;)
(If you have a business that consists of only young people, not knowing anything about the business, or the history, or current systems, or limitations. Lets not call it journalism. And lets not call what they do reviewing.. :) Lets cal it 'extended PR', Thats what I took out of this myself really.)
If you have any other explanation of why the main meme going around with Shenmue III is, that it feels like an old game. I'm still open for concepts.
We've established, that it has subpar menu design, and animationwork. But also that you cant downrate a game because of it.
And we've established, that it doesnt breadcrumb the player to the next goal, and that people have a hard time conceptualizing exposition in dialogue (used as part of gameplay) - because, if popular streamers are any indication, their attention span is fairly low. So in that sense, maybe death stranding was the perfect narrative experience for todays gamers.
Just dumb it down. Focus group tells us, people still have a heard time following exposition, and are only really in it for the dopamine fix. Could you maybe explain what that character does three times over? They might have just responded to a text, you know. Could you include more micro transactions? And hows the work on the survival mechanic going?
Also - and thats really the point here, game forums like this - where you can participate on a notion of 'Yu has to give me Shenmue online, because that would feel more modern and, ...' are part of the issue here. If you dont educate people, that something like a budget game can still be surprisingly decent, good even - and you dont educate them on license deals for brand, or as in this case former brands. Or about the upfront costs of hosting a server infrastructure in an environment where sales and consumer attention usually comes and goes in spikes.
You have game reviewers believing, thats the scope of things you review videogames by.
The game feels old, is not a statement that is made about its game systems, or storytelling, or even modern quality of life stuff thats in there. Its about production value only.
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The Outer Worlds was a recent production on a budget, that performed better, than people expected. And it literally uses core gameplay from 2003. With a bad shooter thrown on top of it. But with more attention to production values, and 'edgy' artdesign. Following a Fallout PR formula (of faking deeper meaning, than your design can produce. Thats archetypal storytelling on a PR level. ;) ).
But because production value - seemed higher - reviews were better?
Isn't this exactly how this goes?
Isn't 'game feels old' just a convenient lie?
Isn't it just, that today - even with walking simulators, people just expect better graphics and animation work, and dont know - what it would cost to do that in Japan for example - instead of Ukrain, or Poland? Or that they have no idea, what goes into world design on that detail level. Or writing dialogue for NPCs on the level of Shenmue, and then also voicing that?
Isn't it exactly that?
Oh, and insert some Kickstarter memes, to show that the game really wasn't funded initially anyhow. To rectify your scoring. Why don't you.
But because production value - seemed higher - reviews were better?
Isn't this exactly how this goes?
Isn't 'game feels old' just a convenient lie?
Isn't it just, that today - even with walking simulators, people just expect better graphics and animation work, and dont know - what it would cost to do that in Japan for example - instead of Ukrain, or Poland? Or that they have no idea, what goes into world design on that detail level. Or writing dialogue for NPCs on the level of Shenmue, and then also voicing that?
Isn't it exactly that?
Oh, and insert some Kickstarter memes, to show that the game really wasn't funded initially anyhow. To rectify your scoring. Why don't you.
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To be fair, it feels like Shenmue I and II and those are definitely old games. And I love it for it. But I can see how other people won't. You still run with R2. The start button does nothing but your menu is on a bumper. There are just some odd design choices that make sense for 'us', but won't make sense for people who don't know Shenmue. I was playing the game with a friend and I was walking down the stairs and I wanted to turn around to go back up and I couldn't. Ryo stopped in his tracks and started moving awkwardly, but I wasn't able to do a 180. I had walk and while walking make a u-turn, which isn't really doable on stairs. And my friend didn't understand why I didn't just turn around like in every other game. That's because Ryo is kinda soft locked to the stairs when he's walking up or down them. A 'modern' game would most likely just turn the model around with a small step animation, but Shenmue III just takes it's time and that's fine, but more recent games have moved past that and a thousand other things that Shenmue III still does like it's 2002. I love playing older games and I wouldn't have wanted Shenmue III any other way, but when people say they think it feels like an old game I definitely get what they mean.
I do think Shenmue III doesn't deserve the hate. Yeah, it doesn't play like GTA V or feel as smooth as Spider-Man or something, but it doesn't want to be and doesn't need to be. Shenmue is an acquired taste that you need to learn to love, but when you do, it's an amazing experience.
So back to feels based discussion again.
Point out the systems. Argue, for why you'd downrank the game for them.
"Feels like Shenmue"
In large part are the following design choices.
- Deeper worlds than any other games ('World simulation').
- Which means five to ten times the NPC dialogue, compared to other sandbox games
- Means 40% more time investment on the detail level of world assets (because first person perspective).
- Means slow, contemplative pacing. Means - mix of 'hyper real' with silly tropes and stupid characters.
- Means storydriven (as supposed to 'action gauntlet')
Now - what part of that is your reasoning for feeling, that the game should score a 5.8 like IGN.
If all you are doing is ranking games based on feels - first, stop claiming that you are a reviewer - because you know nothing, and cant back up your pseudo objective joices, so you now made subjectivity your mantra.
Second, we still havent worked out why - "feels like the old games" - is such a bad thing to begin with - in reviews. There is no explaination for that whatsoever.
What are you missing so much?
I simply want people to have to spell out, that they play videogames, for cheap endorphine loops, that get triggered by fucking reward systems, and fight or flight system activations every 10 minutes, and that they downvote anything that doesnt give them the same kick as easily (Pressing A), as 'feeling old' basically. But no one has the guts to say it.
Fallout look alike game has core gameplay systems from 2003 (Morrowind, back then) - didnt change a thing. Dumbed them down for mass consumption. Put shooter venier on top. Reviewers agree - 8.5 game. At least.
So now I'm offering them a - are you really only reviewing games, based on their production values? As an out. ;)
Point out the systems. Argue, for why you'd downrank the game for them.
"Feels like Shenmue"
In large part are the following design choices.
- Deeper worlds than any other games ('World simulation').
- Which means five to ten times the NPC dialogue, compared to other sandbox games
- Means 40% more time investment on the detail level of world assets (because first person perspective).
- Means slow, contemplative pacing. Means - mix of 'hyper real' with silly tropes and stupid characters.
- Means storydriven (as supposed to 'action gauntlet')
Now - what part of that is your reasoning for feeling, that the game should score a 5.8 like IGN.
If all you are doing is ranking games based on feels - first, stop claiming that you are a reviewer - because you know nothing, and cant back up your pseudo objective joices, so you now made subjectivity your mantra.
Second, we still havent worked out why - "feels like the old games" - is such a bad thing to begin with - in reviews. There is no explaination for that whatsoever.
What are you missing so much?
I simply want people to have to spell out, that they play videogames, for cheap endorphine loops, that get triggered by fucking reward systems, and fight or flight system activations every 10 minutes, and that they downvote anything that doesnt give them the same kick as easily (Pressing A), as 'feeling old' basically. But no one has the guts to say it.
Fallout look alike game has core gameplay systems from 2003 (Morrowind, back then) - didnt change a thing. Dumbed them down for mass consumption. Put shooter venier on top. Reviewers agree - 8.5 game. At least.
So now I'm offering them a - are you really only reviewing games, based on their production values? As an out. ;)
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Not sure if you're talking to me since I'm not the IGN reviewer, haha, but yeah... "Feels like Shenmue" can be a positive and a negative thing. It means the game has a lot of NPC dialogue (fully voice acted) and a lot of interaction with them on a day to day basis, sure. It also means it's probably going to be a slow experience since you're spending a big part of the game listening to long, awkwardly written dialogue. To me that's part of the charm and that's why I decided to play it with the English dub first, but a lot of people just want to skip through it and knock out people.
I think part of why people are reacting to it negatively is because it's Shenmue. It's this 'legendary' game from the Dreamcast era that nobody really played, but everybody who follows gaming knows. Nobody complains when the new CoD comes out and plays the exact same as the last one, but when a new Shenmue comes out it's a bad thing that it feels like the old games. I understand why since it has a lot of archaic mechanics that could've been improved on, but the question is if it still would've been Shenmue if YsNet changed it too much. They could've updated the controls so it'd feel better and less tank-y to control Ryo, they could've added a minimap with questmarkers and explanation marks above NPC's heads, they could've outlined objects that you need to interact with to progress the game, but would it still be Shenmue then? In looks and story, sure, but in gameplay? You don't hear people complain about VN's for example, which are also slow and dialogue heavy games, because those games don't have the history and legacy attached to them that Shenmue has.
In the end this is Shenmue III, a sequel aimed at people who've played the originals. Not Shenmue: Subtitle, a new game made to pull new people into the franchise. It's a sequel to an 18 year old game that's been Kickstarted almost solely by fans of the old games. So it's only logical that it plays like the old games, since that's what the people who paid for the development love so much. They didn't pay for a GTA clone with a Shenmue skin and a continuation of the Shenmue story.
A Dutch reviewer at gamekings.tv (an older dude who loves the originals) kept comparing the game to Sleeping Dogs, because that's also a game set in China/Hong Kong with martial arts combat, and he kept telling people to go play Sleeping Dogs instead. Sleeping Dogs is a fine game, but it's trying to do something completely different from Shenmue, so why he's comparing those two was baffling to me while watching their review discussion. But when I try to look at it from the outside I can see why you'd recommend Sleeping Dogs over Shenmue to today's GTA/CoD crowd because it's pacing is much faster and the game has a lot more action sequences. And most kids nowadays wouldn't have played Shenmue I & II anyway, so why would they bother with III?
I have yet to review Shenmue III for the website I write for, and even though I have like 2+ pages of notes, I have no idea how I have to score the game (I hate attaching a rating to a review, but I don't make the rules). I absolutely adore the game and I loved every minute I spent with it, but I can't really recommend it to people who haven't played the originals, and I have to review the game objectively, not subjectively. This is also why I was very happy I didn't have to review Death Stranding, which I loved btw.
I think part of why people are reacting to it negatively is because it's Shenmue. It's this 'legendary' game from the Dreamcast era that nobody really played, but everybody who follows gaming knows. Nobody complains when the new CoD comes out and plays the exact same as the last one, but when a new Shenmue comes out it's a bad thing that it feels like the old games. I understand why since it has a lot of archaic mechanics that could've been improved on, but the question is if it still would've been Shenmue if YsNet changed it too much. They could've updated the controls so it'd feel better and less tank-y to control Ryo, they could've added a minimap with questmarkers and explanation marks above NPC's heads, they could've outlined objects that you need to interact with to progress the game, but would it still be Shenmue then? In looks and story, sure, but in gameplay? You don't hear people complain about VN's for example, which are also slow and dialogue heavy games, because those games don't have the history and legacy attached to them that Shenmue has.
In the end this is Shenmue III, a sequel aimed at people who've played the originals. Not Shenmue: Subtitle, a new game made to pull new people into the franchise. It's a sequel to an 18 year old game that's been Kickstarted almost solely by fans of the old games. So it's only logical that it plays like the old games, since that's what the people who paid for the development love so much. They didn't pay for a GTA clone with a Shenmue skin and a continuation of the Shenmue story.
A Dutch reviewer at gamekings.tv (an older dude who loves the originals) kept comparing the game to Sleeping Dogs, because that's also a game set in China/Hong Kong with martial arts combat, and he kept telling people to go play Sleeping Dogs instead. Sleeping Dogs is a fine game, but it's trying to do something completely different from Shenmue, so why he's comparing those two was baffling to me while watching their review discussion. But when I try to look at it from the outside I can see why you'd recommend Sleeping Dogs over Shenmue to today's GTA/CoD crowd because it's pacing is much faster and the game has a lot more action sequences. And most kids nowadays wouldn't have played Shenmue I & II anyway, so why would they bother with III?
I have yet to review Shenmue III for the website I write for, and even though I have like 2+ pages of notes, I have no idea how I have to score the game (I hate attaching a rating to a review, but I don't make the rules). I absolutely adore the game and I loved every minute I spent with it, but I can't really recommend it to people who haven't played the originals, and I have to review the game objectively, not subjectively. This is also why I was very happy I didn't have to review Death Stranding, which I loved btw.
Mate, you realise I was joking right? You didn't have to write me an entire essay in response to me being facetious (and clearly facetious at that, considering I made the Shenmue Online comment twice while also asking for a VR Shenmue and a battle royals). Relax with the elitism please. Nobody needs to be "educated" on anything, it was simply a joke.
Pretty happy with what I played so far. The best thing I can say is that this is definitely Shenmue, with all its quirks, its slow pace, its attention to detail, its intimate setting... I can most definitely forgive some rough edges because of what has been achieved on a relatively modest budget, the game looks really very good at times. While the combat system has changed a bit, i feel like the whole underlying systems are better connected with the first two parts, even if it seems the original was a bit deeper. Now, my main complaints so far:
1. The stamina system. It's a bit annoying that it drains so fast, and then you get into a fight and start with perhaps half your health
2. Only sparring really builds up your level. I think real fights should also give you experience.
Other than that really can't fault much, but I am only a few hours in.
PNL's audience isn't the Shenmue-playing type. Besides, the song doesn't talk about Shenmue at all (it's almost gibberish at times).
It's not. The ranking is barely updated every week. And when you look at the entire top (and the fact that Shenmue 3 only appeared at release, despite some really old title being in the top 20 without any sale), it's showing a pretty grim picture.
Yeah I didn't see him eitherAfter finishing then going back and looking over old trailers I don't remember seeing this old man from the "there's no animation" phase of the build-up.
Unless he was a side story character. I'm finding out I missed loads of those.
After finishing then going back and looking over old trailers I don't remember seeing this old man from the "there's no animation" phase of the build-up.
Unless he was a side story character. I'm finding out I missed loads of those.
He ends up being a shopkeeper in the game (and Ryo comments about him not looking trustworthy), but the bit in the leaked extended trailer where he gets backfisted in the face, it seems he was replaced with another character (who we first saw in the Walmart trailer):
It's a a sad situation but who expected Shenmue III to set the world on fire sales-wise? If making Shenmue III made business sense, we wouldn't have had to back the game on Kickstarter. Besides, there were controversies from day one and the game's marketing following that was pretty lackluster. Almost everything that could have gone wrong did. Even though I kept hoping for good sales, I was pretty much expecting things to go the way they did.
I still believe that we'll get Shenmue IV. But I'm curious to see how things will go.
I still believe that we'll get Shenmue IV. But I'm curious to see how things will go.
I didn't expect it to set the world on fire, but I think certain people working on the game might need to lower their ambitions and try to wrap this story up without leaving us all with another two decade-long cliffhanger. I don't see how they're going to get to make three more "epic" games out of this franchise.
As many here may or may not know, Shenmue 3 isn't exactly free of filler and padding. I'm all for immersion and telling the story Yu wants to tell, but he needs an editor. He also needs to make more games and I don't want Shenmue to end his career again. I got so excited when I saw him talking about working on his old franchises again.
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I think plans are already in motion for shenmue 4, ya net prob knew that the sales for the game wasn't going to be that great, whatever deal they made with epic prob will help fund 4
It sounds like they purchased a certain number of copies and will not pay Ys Net/Deep Silver any more unless a certain, and probably unrealistic, number of copies sells. I'm guessing it's a number Shenmue 3 will never meet or exceed (200K+).
My feeling is that we will get a Shenmue 4 to wrap up the series- the series is never going to magically set the world on fire sales-wise. It's a niche title with a fanbase who really care about the characters, locations, and experience in the games. Being able to experience the full story in the medium it was intended for I think at this point needs to factor into the equation.
If anyone here understands Japanese, would you do me a favor and summarize this video? I'd love to know what Yu has to say now that the game is out.
Don't know where else to share this, but I saw Shenmue III for PS4 on the Square Enix shop (US) for 40 bucks:
Did it really help the game, or Ysnet, or just reduced the risk for DS?
I would've liked more 'granny | gorgeous' moments in the game. I think that was the only time that showed up?
From what I've heard, Epic's contribution only helped Deep Silver.
I think we should remember that Epic paid close to $10 million for Control's PC exclusivity. Obviously the amount won't be anywhere as large for Shenmue, but considering its initial budget it could still be pretty significant amount. Yeah, many people complained about this deal, but I suspect that if we get a Shenmue IV it will be partly thanks to this.
In any case, I think Yu should wrap things up by the fourth entry.
That sucks, it really hurt YS Net in my eyes with that move so if it only helped deep silver than they made a mistake by having deep silver publishing.
I suspect decisions like that will hurt a Shenmue IV being made which would be nice to see I just hope they don't go the crowdfunding route because after Shenmue 3, I wouldn't support a Shenmue IV kickstarter.
I mean, if that means Deep Silver didn't lose any money on Shenmue 3 and Epic considers Shenmue enough of an 'exclusive' to front that kind of money, it still seems like a positive for the future of Shenmue.
Eh the game is probably doing ok and as expected. No way anyone involved went in thinking S3 was gonna move any big numbers. And they probably know that most people that really wanted the game already got it by backing the KS.
Just guessing here but S4 is probably in development already, the DLC should not require the whole team and they can't just sit around. They can of course cancel it but I'm guessing there is a pretty high chance we are getting S4 as well. It should be much less costly to develop now that they are used to the engine and the team + assets they can reuse. All systems are in place now so a new game would "only" require story, cutscenes and environments + polishing. Would not be surprised if the big test is S4, unless Yu rewrites stuff to make S4 the last one.
If we are getting more games I would not mind if they took a Yakuza-like approach and reuse areas a bit more. No need create all new areas for every game even if it's a lot of fun exploring new things. Just... Try to make the development easier and cheaper, give us story and some slight additions and changes here and there.
Just guessing here but S4 is probably in development already, the DLC should not require the whole team and they can't just sit around. They can of course cancel it but I'm guessing there is a pretty high chance we are getting S4 as well. It should be much less costly to develop now that they are used to the engine and the team + assets they can reuse. All systems are in place now so a new game would "only" require story, cutscenes and environments + polishing. Would not be surprised if the big test is S4, unless Yu rewrites stuff to make S4 the last one.
If we are getting more games I would not mind if they took a Yakuza-like approach and reuse areas a bit more. No need create all new areas for every game even if it's a lot of fun exploring new things. Just... Try to make the development easier and cheaper, give us story and some slight additions and changes here and there.
Well, we don't know what were the other options, if at all. And surely the whole Epic thing could have been handled better, but I just wanted to point out the obvious: given the amount of cash Epic has been splashing it was probably a pretty sweet deal. Nowadays I mostly game on PC, but I don't care much that the game is Epic exclusive, as it will most likely be on Steam at some point. In any case, I of course understand your decision for not backing a new crowdfund.
It's not. They of course have things in mind but Shenmue IV hasn't gotten the greenlight yet. There are deals that have to be made first.
Anyone who knows Japanese market will realize that first week sales (17k in 6 days) is bad considering its budget . Yes the budget of Shenmue 3 in fact may close to a yakuza-series or mosou game. But the sales is even worse than some small budget games like YS9.
I just hope S4 tells a better fuller story otherwise S5 would have to end it properly. In some ways I think S3 was an intermission, because yea not a lot of major story plots happen in this but still enjoyable
It's probably over 30k when you add digital. I'm not so sure it has a bigger budget than Yakuza. A S4 especially would be a lower budget because engine is now in place.
I don;t think that would work with Shenmue. In Yakuza part of the appeal was seeing the small but gradual changes to Kamurocho, but Shenmue has always been about visiting new places. I wouldn't mind reusing some assets but I think new places are necessary.