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Shenmue Is The Waterworld Of Videogames (The Jimquisition)

Oct 28, 2017
7,999
Understandable. It is a somewhat weird change. For what its worth, once the fighting "clicks" I think its actually kinda good in its own right. It doesn't really let you button bash on higher difficulties and instead seems to rely on you reading opponents and dodging/countering with your own attack. I definitely prefer the old combat better for sure, but I'm actually liking 3's combat now that I've had time to adapt to it. I still miss certain moves though :(
Thanks, good to know.

I'll get this eventually, even if I don't pull the trigger immediately.
 

Slayven

I don’t know what you’re talking about
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
40,231
That is a pretty great video, say what you will about the opinion, Jim brought the receipts to back up his conclusion
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,129
I can't watch the video right now, but does he give proper context to what Waterworld was? I doubt 2/3rds of his viewers were even alive when that movie came out.
 
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ValKiryuSonicEX

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
Understandable. It is a somewhat weird change. For what its worth, once the fighting "clicks" I think its actually kinda good in its own right. It doesn't really let you button bash on higher difficulties and instead seems to rely on you reading opponents and dodging/countering with your own attack. I definitely prefer the old combat better for sure, but I'm actually liking 3's combat now that I've had time to adapt to it. I still miss certain moves though :(
Still haven't had a chance to properly play Shenmue 3, but it is a shame Yu couldn't get more resources from SEGA (like VF5's system) to build the combat from, probably would've felt closer to the originals consider the changes I have heard for 3.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,972
Even if Yakuza is superior to Shenmue, I’m not sure why the argument becomes: Shenmue shouldn’t exist. Can’t two games in similar genres exist at the same time? Why does the idea an “inferior Yakuza shouldn’t exist” become the fact?
I don't think Yakuza is superior, just different, the last Yakuza game I played and Shenmue 3, the tone and basic gameplay (interacting with NPCs/searching) couldn't be any more different. If you only care about action and cutscenes maybe it's superior but they're not the same genre IMO.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,638
That is a pretty great video, say what you will about the opinion, Jim brought the receipts to back up his conclusion

Receipts which many were factually wrong ?
That's a pretty bad video on multiple instance:
- Brings up fund question: Fuck up on most of them because of wrong facts
- Complains about Shenmue I and II being high budget titles that "no one cares about" to complain about Shenmue III being a low budget game
- Call the game "a joke" because "visuals" (from the DP and DW fan btw)


The entire video feels like a "fuck this game I hate and fuck the people who like it".

I wont get in the fact that his whole argument is weak at best, summing up the entire serie as a "meme game" with "sailors and gacha". To this day, Shenmue II is still a really solid game with a shitload of content, a great combat system and a lot of well done moments (I won't even talk about the great rythm of the adventure, which keeps getting bigger and bigger without any single stop).
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,834
I don't think Yakuza is superior, just different, the last Yakuza game I played and Shenmue 3, the tone and basic gameplay (interacting with NPCs/searching) couldn't be any more different. If you only care about action and cutscenes maybe it's superior but they're not the same genre IMO.
Even the story tone is completely different between the two games - Shenmue seems to be a sort of Kung Fu journey/treasure hunt type story, Yakuza is one part gritty crime drama, one part Japanese soap opera. Combat wise again is something that is sorta debateable as especially in the first two Shenmue games there's a ton more depth to the combat, but since fights are far more spaced out (especially in the first game) you never quite get to really experiment fully with what you have on offer. I love Shenmue's VF esque combat in the first two games though - nailing some of those throws and counters especially against tougher boss enemies is sure something, but you also can't say no to Yakuza's funky arcade style combat and tiger drops! I can appreciate both games for what they are. Only thing for sure I'd give to Yakuza over Shenmue is the story in places - namely getting some sort of resolution per game (as opposed to Shenmue's permanent "to be continued" state where your never sure if it'll get a sequel, and definitely the cutscene direction in Yakuza is a million times better, especially compared to many of the story conversations in Shenmue 3.

Still haven't had a chance to properly play Shenmue 3, but it is a shame Yu couldn't get more resources from SEGA (like VF5's system) to build the combat from, probably would've felt closer to the originals consider the changes I have heard for 3.
Yeah, definitely a shame that couldn't happen :( As could you imagine VF5's combat as a base for Shenmue 3s? It'd pretty much be the best thing ever!
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,972
I think liking Shenmue is the actual hipster opinion in 2019.
I think it was always an underdog game and that's why people were amazed it started to get made, it's hard for me to be cynical about that. People rooted for it but are not surprised when it failed to be a hit. That's not exactly the point.

The game has clumsy dialogue that often sounds like lost in translation, budget graphics, steep money grinds and I don't see the fans denying it but it's not just a meme series and it's quite easy to see why people might enjoy the world and variety of the activities which are fun to chill to. There is a bit where a weird martial arts master makes you collect about 30 chickens in a few minutes, which is joke of course but there's a silly offbeat tone that's helps makes it fun.
 

Rimkrak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,940
Brutal. Savage. Recked.

Or something

Wow he goes hard on this game, damn. I didn't know about the games made in the time gap, thats....yeah.

I'm neutral on Shenmue, finished 1 and 2 and didnt feel good about 3 from the things I saw, so decided I'll play it when it hits ps+ or smthg.

Funny video as always, this dude is fun. He's even funny when he criticizes things I like :)
 

residentgrigo

Member
Oct 30, 2019
515
Germany
I know that he directed VF4 in the same year as Shenmue 2, as it´s based on the NAOMI 2 board. Basically a beefed-up Dreamcast. The game is fine. Like I said, "[Sukuki] directed a few games... after both his Shenmues bombed though the floor" bell wood's jet cola. What are we even arguing about here?
I am fairly sure though that VF 4 already hit the arcades by the time he murdered the Dreamcast for good with Shenmue 2. Suzuki was a good director up until the mid-90s. Everything else he did thereafter did Sega and the gaming scene no favors. No updated PS2 reskin of VR 3 will ever change that.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,834
I think it was always an underdog game and that's why people were amazed it started to get made, it's hard for me to be cynical about that.

The game has clumsy dialogue that often sounds like lost in translation, budget graphics, steep money grinds and I don't see the fans denying it but it's quite easy to see why people might enjoy the world and variety of the activities which are fun to chill to. There is a bit where a weird martial arts master makes you collect about 30 chickens, there's a silly offbeat tone that's helps makes it fun.
The chicken thing made sense to me, its like airing out books in the second game (which I loved, its strangely relaxing. Then again I loved the forklift in 1 for some reason...)
And yeah, some of the dialogue is translated badly. Just playing the game with the Japanese track and subtitles presumeably in line with the English dialogue I can tell some pretty silly differences.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,246
Long Island
What about those guys who freaked out during E3 and went viral with their reactions. Did they end up liking it or do they fall in line with the people who backed it, got it and thought it was just ok?
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,834
What about those guys who freaked out during E3 and went viral with their reactions. Did they end up liking it or do they fall in line with the people who backed it, got it and thought it was just ok?
For the most part, Shenmue fans (like me) are enjoying Shenmue 3 because its more of the same, so we are happy. Its certainly not perfect, but I'm happy it exists.
 

J2 Cool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,121
Shenmue has always been a niche game with a niche following and niche success even though the first one had a huge budget, what a wild and alarming note.
Eh not always true. A million units sold in the dreamcast days wasn't nothing to sneeze at. Shenmue 2 success was tied into the dreamcast, and that sunk it. By the time it came out on xbox years later, without Shenmue 1 releasing on that system, there was no entry point to the series again.

Shenmue III sticks dramatically to 1 and 2's format, and is made for those fans mostly. The remasters were cool, but there's no way to continue to where the series would be in 2019 with the 3rd one, had it never stopped getting made. It was a series known for its high production values, for expanding open worlds, offering a variety of gameplay elements, a strong fighting system, high quality soundtrack, and ambitious cinematic storytelling.

It's not fair to look at Shenmue III, its budget, and distilled concept of Shenmue, and say Shenmue's vision was a Waterworld-level flop. That seems entirely disingenuous, to not count all the factors at play
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,972
The chicken thing made sense to me, its like airing out books in the second game (which I loved, its strangely relaxing. Then again I loved the forklift in 1 for some reason...)
And yeah, some of the dialogue is translated badly. Just playing the game with the Japanese track and subtitles presumeably in line with the English dialogue I can tell some pretty silly differences.
Yeah the chicken thing is an amusing chore, and Yu Suzuki is more aware of the goofiness than some people often give him credit for. He said in interviews that he does know how silly Ryo can come across who doesn't care what other people think of him
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,000
I know that he directed VF4 in the same year as Shenmue 2, as it´s based on the NAOMI 2 board. Basically a beefed-up Dreamcast. The game is fine. Like I said, "[Sukuki] directed a few games... after both his Shenmues bombed though the floor" bell wood's jet cola. What are we even arguing about here?
I am fairly sure though that VF 4 already hit the arcades by the time he murdered the Dreamcast for good with Shenmue 2. Suzuki was a good director up until the mid-90s. Everything else he did thereafter did Sega and the gaming scene no favors. No updated PS2 reskin of VR 3 will ever change that.
Shenmue didn't kill the Dreamcast. Sega was going to exit the hardware business because their business model was unsustainable, even while the Dreamcast was in development. There are entire books on the subject.

Shenmue did the 'gaming scene' plenty of favors, which is why many game developers, critics, and commentators cite it as an important series and laid the groundwork for open world genre on consoles. Facts and your personal opinion simply don't align.

It's ok to be wrong. Enjoy your day.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,972
What about those guys who freaked out during E3 and went viral with their reactions. Did they end up liking it or do they fall in line with the people who backed it, got it and thought it was just ok?
I don't think anyone believed Shenmue 3 could live up to that, even at the time. It was just fun.
 

Suede

Gotham's Finest
Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,759
Jim has always hated the series and they needed our money to fund 3 only for it to turn out more of the same but not as good, so it's not exactly a shock this is how he feels about it.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,648
Eh not always true. A million units sold in the dreamcast days wasn't nothing to sneeze at. Shenmue 2 success was tied into the dreamcast, and that sunk it. By the time it came out on xbox years later, without Shenmue 1 releasing on that system, there was no entry point to the series again.

Shenmue III sticks dramatically to 1 and 2's format, and is made for those fans mostly. The remasters were cool, but there's no way to continue to where the series would be in 2019 with the 3rd one, had it never stopped getting made. It was a series known for its high production values, for expanding open worlds, offering a variety of gameplay elements, a strong fighting system, high quality soundtrack, and ambitious cinematic storytelling.

It's not fair to look at Shenmue III, its budget, and distilled concept of Shenmue, and say Shenmue's vision was a Waterworld flop. That seems entirely disingenuous, to not count all the factors at play
Agree.
Shenmue 1 sold over a million on a 10 million install base. That's a 10% attachment rate which is pretty high.
 

residentgrigo

Member
Oct 30, 2019
515
Germany
TheGhost The Gametrailers, now Easily Allies, E3 reaction to FF VII and Shenmue 3 is about as embarrassing and unprofessional as it gets but Michael Huber likes the game. Someone else will score it to my knowledge (he put a lot of money onto the Kickstarter) but Huber was destined to like it. It´s a "late-gen" Dreamcast game in 2019 with zero regards to anything.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,972
TheGhost The Gametrailers now Easily Allies E3 reaction to FF VII and Shenmue 3 is about as embarrassing and unprofessional as it gets but Michael Huber ‏ likes the game. Someone else will score it to my knowledge but he was destined to like it. It´s a late gen Dreamcast game in 2019 with zero regards to anything.
Unprofessional! I get the impression they're meant to entertain their audience, what is wrong with that? You sound like a boring dad.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,556
United Kingdom
I know that he directed VF4 in the same year as Shenmue 2, as it´s based on the NAOMI 2 board. Basically a beefed-up Dreamcast. The game is fine. Like I said, "[Sukuki] directed a few games... after both his Shenmues bombed though the floor" bell wood's jet cola. What are we even arguing about here?
I am fairly sure though that VF 4 already hit the arcades by the time he murdered the Dreamcast for good with Shenmue 2. Suzuki was a good director up until the mid-90s. Everything else he did thereafter did Sega and the gaming scene no favors. No updated PS2 reskin of VR 3 will ever change that.
Dreamcast was already dead before Shenmue 2 came out, though. Shitting on Suzuki does you no favours. He also directed F355 Challenge after Shenmue 1, just so you know. He also carried on as Producer as well for games like Virtua Cop 3 and 18 Wheeler, so it’s not like he abandoned arcade games after Shenmue or anything, just that the market died in the 2000s.
 

StayMe7o

Member
May 11, 2018
639
Kamurocho
I'm just happy we fans got 3 and as another poster mentioned, it's weird that he picks on Shenmue 3 but loves Deadly Premonition. I like Jim and his videos, but yeah
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,089
I generally like Jim and his opinions.

Shenmue though, is definitely the thing that makes Jim Sterling clown himself whilst trying to clown. So keen to carry the torch of hate for the series, finds time to play it, but has no time for facts or double standards.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,816
Pacifica, CA
As someone who likes the original Shenmue, I have to say that I find a lot of the negative opinions regarding Shenmue legitimately entertaining. I mean, I get why people don't like it, and I didn't even care for Shenmue II, but Shenmue's at least something really special when it comes to the perception of the majority. It's a really weird thing, and there's really nothing like it. While that's arguably a good thing, I think it's an interesting conversation piece, and it's fun to see people who know nothing about it be exposed to it and baffled as to its appeal.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,834
TheGhost The Gametrailers, now Easily Allies, E3 reaction to FF VII and Shenmue 3 is about as embarrassing and unprofessional as it gets but Michael Huber likes the game. Someone else will score it to my knowledge (he put a lot of money onto the Kickstarter) but Huber was destined to like it. It´s a "late-gen" Dreamcast game in 2019 with zero regards to anything.
You make it sound like making a late gen DC game - a sequel to a DC game is a bad thing. You do realise this was a crowdfunded game where fans of the first two games wanted a faithful sequel to the first two? And that's what we got? What the heck is wrong with that? And what's wrong with Huber being happy about getting a sequel to a series he really enjoys (like the rest of us). You must be so much fun at parties...
 

ValKiryuSonicEX

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
Funnily enough...unlike Shenmue 3, Japan actually loves Waterworld
Isn't there still a show based off Waterworld at Universal Studios Japan?

I'm just happy we fans got 3 and as another poster mentioned, it's weird that he picks on Shenmue 3 but loves Deadly Premonition. I like Jim and his videos, but yeah
and that's what I find weird, Jim going to bat for DP, yet trashes Shenmue despite them kind of being in the same boat these days (for the record I like DP)...Hell even SWERY was happy that Shenmue 3 got made.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,000
Dreamcast was already dead before Shenmue 2 came out, though. Shitting on Suzuki does you no favours. He also directed F355 Challenge after Shenmue 1, just so you know. He also carried on as Producer as well for games like Virtua Cop 3 and 18 Wheeler, so it’s not like he abandoned arcade games after Shenmue or anything, just that the market died in the 2000s.
He's picking on Suzuki because Shenmue Online and Psy-Phi died before they could be released and then Suzuki went on to do nothing of note until 2015. The facts, though, are that he released a few very highly regarded games for Sega, even after Shenmue, including VF4: Evolution, which is an amazing game. But I guess flexing that he knows it was produced and developed in the early 2000s somehow negates that.
 

doodlewhizz

Member
Jan 9, 2019
1,311
I think there's some good analysis to be done about Shenmue III, how its funding worked out for the game and publishers, the KS issues etc.

But it probably shouldn't be from someone with so much unrelenting and almost inexplicable vitriol for the series (and neither should it be done by superfans either)
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,348
That is a pretty great video, say what you will about the opinion, Jim brought the receipts to back up his conclusion
Nah, he is factually wrong on several things here. It is actually one of his worst researched videos in a long time. Him continuing to compare the franchise to Yakuza is just super weird too, they really are nothing alike.

Shenmue III is actually pretty outrageously packed as a game considering it's small budget. The scale increased several times to add more fan favorite aspects to the experience, but the overall story is rather simplistic because the outline for where they wanted to go with the story was finished before the Kickstarter was even announced. I am honestly expecting Shenmue IV to happen too even if III's sales seem lackluster just because the game was especially well budgeted for what it is.

And as others have mentioned in this thread, he was calling the game rubbish over a year ago now on his podcast. He just has it out for this series honestly.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,754
Pretty rich coming from a guy who publically wet himself over the announcement of Deadly Premonition 2.

Talk about punching downwards. This is the kind of thing we should be happy about in this industry.

Poor form from Jim. Very disappointed in him here.
 

residentgrigo

Member
Oct 30, 2019
515
Germany
F355 Challenge came out in 1999. Shenmue 2 came in September of 2001. What reality am I living in? You late-era Sega console fans are weird. I never play it. I only know that the PS2 port got middling scores and flopped.

EZA´s podcast this week was weirdly prophetic for this topic. The one from I thinks last week equally talked about the failed release of Shenmue 3.
00:30:54 - How Thankful Should We Really Be for Games?:

Both the (lovable) madmen behind E3 2015 participate. Half the allies, all members of the gaming press who will participate in the Game Awards, talk about how they should treat their hype and attitudes to new games. Let´s just say that journalists, that´s what they are, should be able to keep their sanity during a press announcement that doesn´t show anything.

Deadly Premonition is actually good nachum00. Jim loves it, I love it, you love it, everyone should love it!
 

StayMe7o

Member
May 11, 2018
639
Kamurocho
and that's what I find weird, Jim going to bat for DP, yet trashes Shenmue despite them kind of being in the same boat these days (for the record I like DP)...Hell even SWERY was happy that Shenmue 3 got made.
Yeah, exactly! He doesn't have to enjoy the game or agree with fans who enjoy it, but it'd be nice if he could just be happy for us who do care. I'm sure most of us would admit that Shenmue 3 isn't a highly polished product and could definitely be a lot better overall, but it's a miracle that we're actually able to play it after all this time.

I do agree the Sony and Shibuya funding was shady as well as the last minute Epic switch, but we got our game.
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,910
This is just a really, really weird fight to pick

Yes 1 and 2 cost a lot, and commercially disappointed. But Shenmue, for better or worse, has a dedicated fanbase who (through my broad interactions with) are pretty great folk over the last decade or so.

Persistence for more lead to Yu taking an interest. He put it out there, and the money came through KS from the people who wanted it. By all accounts the impressions are that it's a faithful Shenmue experience, if quibbles here and there

I have absolutely no idea what Jim is arguing this for or to. A piss poor analogy
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,556
United Kingdom
F355 Challenge came out in 1999. Shenmue 2 came in September of 2001. What reality am I living in? You late-era Sega console fans are weird. I never play it. I only know that the PS2 port got middling scores and flopped.

EZA´s podcast this week was weirdly prophetic for this topic. The one from I thinks last week equally talked about the failed release of Shenmue 3.
00:30:54 - How Thankful Should We Really Be for Games?:

Both the (lovable) madmen behind E3 2015 participate. Half the allies, all members of the gaming press who will participate in the Game Awards, talk about how they should treat their hype and attitudes to new games. Let´s just say that journalists, that´s what they are, should be able to keep their sanity during a press announcement that doesn´t show anything.

Deadly Premonition is actually good nachum00. Jim loves it, I love it, you love it, everyone should love it!
F355 Challenge came out in the same year as Shenmue 1. F355 is considered to be part of the OutRun series.
Like I said he also Produced some other fine games with AM2 after Shenmue 2 as well. OutRun 2 being one example, Virtua Cop 3 another and VF4. My point was that it wasn't like he bailed on arcade games after Shenmue, it's just the arcade market was dead, what did you expect him to do as a primarily arcade developer? He couldn't revive it himself and SEGA as a company were moving away from arcade gaming, moving more towards social games and mobile in the late 2000s and cost cutting.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,000
He's also not the only Sega alum who struggled to find work after the Dreamcast collapsed and the arcade market declined. I can count on my hand the number of Japanese developers who left a big career at a big company and continued producing & directing large scale games. I'm actually not sure I can fill up one hand.
 

ValKiryuSonicEX

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
F355 Challenge came out in the same year as Shenmue 1. F355 is considered to be part of the OutRun series.
Like I said he also Produced some other fine games with AM2 after Shenmue 2 as well. OutRun 2 being one example, Virtua Cop 3 another and VF4. My point was that it wasn't like he bailed on arcade games after Shenmue, it's just the arcade market was dead, what did you expect him to do as a primarily arcade developer? He couldn't revive it himself and SEGA as a company were moving away from arcade gaming, moving more towards social games and mobile in the late 2000s and cost cutting.
Plus the merging with Sammy that happened in like what, 2004? when they restructure a lot of development teams.
 

DrMoguera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
293
What a weirdly hateful video and attitude for something that doesn't actually affect him at all.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,554
I hope this bad press doesn't end up destroying the chances of a S4. Its like most games i really enjoy lately seem to get bashed/end up flopping/both etc and it really bums me out. It's starting to affect my passion of this hobby.
The only thing ending up destroying the chances of S4 is S3 not being a particularly good game.
 

ValKiryuSonicEX

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
Yeah you had people like Yuji Naka leaving, Suzuki getting sidelined, amazing studios getting merged and people losing their jobs. It was a very dark time for SEGA.
Hard to argue that as a SEGA fan, didn't Tetsuya Mizuguchi leave around this time period as well since UGA merged with Sonic Team?

He's also not the only Sega alum who struggled to find work after the Dreamcast collapsed and the arcade market declined. I can count on my hand the number of Japanese developers who left a big career at a big company and continued producing & directing large scale games. I'm actually not sure I can fill up one hand.
For I've seen with most developers leaving, it's hard to develop their ideas for games. I remember that article featuring Yu a few years back, he has so many ideas, but no funding. That's not just limited to him, especially with many having to turn to kickstarter these days.

For Yu to finally make Shenmue 3 after all this time is kind of miraculous.
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,910
What a weirdly hateful video and attitude for something that doesn't actually affect him at all.
It's nuts

It's clear he doesn't like the series. That's fine. A lot of dust has settled since Shenmue 2. A lot of fans were resigned to not getting more. It's absolutely a niche game. To make this video just seems petty when it's pretty much as expected as a product.

I could even justify it if he went into the game with at least an open mind but it's clear with the first few minutes he didn't
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,823
What a weirdly hateful video and attitude for something that doesn't actually affect him at all.
If Jim just did a "Jimpressions" video and talked about how much he hated Shenmue 3, I'd actually have no problem with it.
Instead it's a "Jimquisition" video, where he essentially places the Shenmue series in the same company as micro-transactions and Blizzard's pro-China stance.

Just say you don't like something and be done with it. We're not exactly lacking for good video games to discuss. It seems like a dozen or so are released every week.