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Shenmue Is The Waterworld Of Videogames (The Jimquisition)

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
212
I think most will agree that the second game is inferior to the first and probably feels more like an expansion pack just like the third installment. But I can understand that he went with what worked but for the story first and foremost, there's a lot to be left as ire considering the progression has been so lacking that it only exacerbates all the other flaws in the actual core of the gameplay.

I don't really have a hyperbolic statement like Jim but it certainly is a disappointment and I think even the most die-hard fans would agree with that mainly based on the lack of progression of the story.
Well, I am a fan and a backer, and I definitely don't think the second game is well below the first, much less an expansion pack. I can understand why some people love the first more intimate setting, but I don't think it's a given, much less that everyone agrees on that. I also find it quite interesting, because from what I played so far the first game seems more similar to the third in terms of story development and pace than the second one.

In any case,my question was what would you change in the gameplay department to make it more modern. I am genuinely curious as I've seen a few times this comment about outdated systems and so on, and I'm not quite sure what would people want in that case. It seems Death stranding is also quite slow and perhaps repetitive and yet many people are greatly enjoying it.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
I backed this game for $100, and was disappointed when I found out it wasn't a modern sequel but a more of the same kind of sequel. I also see people calling the game beautiful and I don't get it, the art is kind of all over the place with realistic NPCs and cartoonish Ryo. Then you have the actual visuals tech wise which is kind of bad with very low draw distance and level of detail across the board. Regardless that's not the important part, the important bit that really disappoints me is how it plays, the game plays and moves like it was made in 2001.
 

KORNdog

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,500
i would have partly understood this comparison regarding shenmue 1 and 2. astronomically expensive titles for the time, and even today, with development crossing generations and ultimately resulting in niche titles at best. but shenmue 3 is like, the opposite of that. it's indie in all senses of the word. it's low budget, small team development. and yet manages to match a game that at one time cost 100 million to make. yes it's rough around the edges and rigid, and dated feeling...but so was the first game, even for it's time. but that's all part of shenmue's character imo. i wouldn't want shemue to adopt a bunch of modern gameplay sensibilities just because some time has past. it's just not that sort of franchise for me.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,986
I think most will agree that the second game is inferior to the first and probably feels more like an expansion pack just like the third installment. But I can understand that he went with what worked but for the story first and foremost, there's a lot to be left as ire considering the progression has been so lacking that it only exacerbates all the other flaws in the actual core of the gameplay.

I don't really have a hyperbolic statement like Jim but it certainly is a disappointment and I think even the most die-hard fans would agree with that mainly based on the lack of progression of the story.
Umm, no. I and many others prefer the second game’s story beats and gameplay to the first. It was developed at the same time as the first game and was meant at one point to be part of the first game until deadlines got in the way. It’s much, much larger in scope compared to Shenmue 1 and much more action packed.

PS.Shenmue 3 has had a 71 Metacritic average for two weeks. Not the greatest critical average ever, but hardly the bomb and disaster some of you keep insisting. Didn’t Days Gone end up around the same? I don’t see that constantly tagged as a disaster.
 
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Jun 12, 2018
277
The hate directed towards this game is horrid. So much for being tolerant of other people's taste and interests. Only when the shoe fits i guess. I expected better from gamers
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
fucking garbage. shenmue is fine. fuck outta here with that unnecessary hate. why not just let people enjoy something?
The hate directed towards this game is horrid. So much for being tolerant of other people's taste and interests. Only when the shoe fits i guess. I expected better from gamers
Not even Kojima fans are this defensive. God damn.
something about "people having opinions!!!" but with Jim, it's purely about making money.
it's why he made 3 videos about the series in little over a year. it generates clicks and revenue, and people will defend his thinly veiled criticisms.

he's an absolute blight on the industry at this point.
Does he even monetize his videos? And if he wanted to make money, you think Shenmue of all games is the one he would want to do it with? The game he says himself gained barely any marketing and traction? Like, people aren't going to sub to his Patreon because of this.
Just saw this on my feed:


Another developer who didn’t get the memo that Shenmue was never influential.
Maybe watch the video next time instead of refuting points that were never made, by linking to alt-right morons no less. Some of y'all are embarassing yourselves.
 

Brinbe

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,215
Terana
Not even Kojima fans are this defensive. God damn.

Does he even monetize his videos? And if he wanted to make money, you think Shenmue of all games is the one he woudl want to do it with? The game he says himself gained barely any marketing and traction?

THe only blight on the industry I see in this thread are overly defensive people marking any and all forms of criticism as "hate".
what are you even arguing here? it's fine if he doesn't like it but calling it the waterworld of videogames is obviously some ridiculous hyperbole that doesn't create any reasonable dialogue and nothing is gained by punching down on shenmue.

plenty of people recognize what shenmue 3 is, a dreamcast-ass game straight from 1999, and they like it because it's that game. it's not for everyone and that's fine.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
what are you even arguing here? it's fine if he doesn't like it but calling it the waterworld of videogames is obviously some ridiculous hyperbole that doesn't create any reasonable dialogue and nothing is gained by punching down on shenmue.

plenty of people recognize what the game is, and they like it because it's that game. it's not for everyone and that's fine.
Him using hyperbole isn't him being "hateful". I have the feeling that any sort of criticsm is seen at "punching down" on Shenmue by its fans.
"it's not for everyone and that's fine." is such a lame attempt at silencing negative opinions on a game. We are on a discussion forum. He didn't attack people who like the game, so I'm not sure why you have to emphasize people like the game for what it is.

So, what exactly are you arguing here?
 

Brinbe

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,215
Terana
Him using hyperbole isn't him being "hateful". I have the feeling that any sort of criticsm is seen at "punching down" on Shenmue by its fans.
"it's not for everyone and that's fine." is such a lame attempt at silencing negative opinions on a game. We are on a discussion forum. He didn't attack people who like the game, so I'm not sure why you have to emphasize people like the game for what it is.

So, what exactly are you arguing here?
i'm arguing that it's mean for the sake of being mean. that's not criticism, that is in fact, garbage. exactly what i stated in the post you quoted!

i never said it was unfair criticism or that he (or anyone) wasn't entitled to it. you're imagining things. so again, what are you arguing? you're yelling at windmills here, bro lmfao.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
i'm arguing that it's mean for the sake of being mean. that's not criticism, that is in fact, garbage.
You perceive it that way because you waited aeons for this game to even exist. I'm glad for you that it does. Won't stop me from calling out nonsense claims like this video being "hateful".
"Jim is being mean to my favourite toy" my god...
 

Brinbe

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,215
Terana
You perceive it that way because you waited aeons for this game to even exist. I'm glad for you that it does. Won't stop me from calling out nonsense claims like this video being "hateful".
"Jim is being mean to my favourite toy" my god...
lmfao, what? i perceive it that way because it's true. there's five pages on this because many people have voiced that same opinion! but if you wanna ignore reality, that's on you.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
lmfao, what? i perceive it that way because it's true. there's five pages on this because many people have voiced that same opinion! but if you wanna ignore reality, that's on you.
Yeah, because many people have waited for this game to come out for almost 2 decades. Just because more than one person is overly zealous about a videogame doesn't make your take on JIm's video more "true" or "reality". The only reality is that his comparison doesn't really hold true.

The very fact you call his video "mean" and "hateful" tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from on this.
 

Dizzy Ukulele

Member
Oct 28, 2017
544
Even on Dreamcast I found it impressive but dull. Now I just find it dull but understand why others have an emotional attachment and are genuinely having a good time with Shenmue 3.
 

AwesomeSauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
293
Yeah, because many people have waited for this game to come out for almost 2 decades. Just because more than one person is overly zealous about a videogame doesn't make your take on JIm's video more "true" or "reality". The only reality is that his comparison doesn't really hold true.

The very fact you call his video "mean" and "hateful" tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from on this.
It’s possible that the fans are a bit sensitive to all the trolling this series has been getting and Jim’s video is just adding more fuel to the fire whether he intended to to or not.

Criticism of the game is fair, but when you got posters in the last couple pages calling the series a joke, a meme and it should just go away, then yeah fans are gonna clap back.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,776
Tokyo
It’s possible that the fans are a bit sensitive to all the trolling this series has been getting and Jim’s video is just adding more fuel to the fire whether he intended to to or not.

Criticism of the game is fair, but when you got posters in the last couple pages calling the series a joke, a meme and it should just go away, then yeah fans are gonna clap back.
I hope the fans don't watch the AngryJoe Rapidfire review. They did not like it.
4/10
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
It’s possible that the fans are a bit sensitive to all the trolling this series has been getting and Jim’s video is just adding more fuel to the fire whether he intended to to or not.

Criticism of the game is fair, but when you got posters in the last couple pages calling the series a joke, a meme and it should just go away, then yeah fans are gonna clap back.
Some people might think the series is a joke. Some think it's never been good. Jim's video handles none of those things though, and people reacting that hyperdefensive to it is just sad.
Yeah that meme post was dumb. Not as dumb as this one though:
Just saw this on my feed:


Another developer who didn’t get the memo that Shenmue was never influential.
 

AwesomeSauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
293
Some people might think the series is a joke. Some think it's never been good. Jim's video handles none of those things though, and people reacting that hyperdefensive to it is just sad.
Yeah that meme post was dumb. Not as dumb as this one though
I’m pretty sure the person who posted that tweet of the dev wasn’t aiming it at Jim’s video and more at the argument in this thread about Shenmue’s overall influence.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,986
That’s exactly it. People keep insisting—in this thread—the series was always trash and not influential, yet I constantly see big developers citing it as a huge influence and praising Yu Suzuki for what he accomplished. It’s like they can’t separate their personal opinions from facts. I don’t really understand how we’re even still trying to argue Yu Suzuki and Shenmue aren’t hugely influential in 2019, but I suppose time erases everything...

You are totally fine to think it’s the most boring, janky, annoying series ever. It’s just ridiculous to see people try to rewrite history because they personally didn’t enjoy something.
 
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Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
I’m pretty sure the person who posted that tweet of the dev wasn’t aiming it at Jim’s video and more at the argument in this thread about Shenmue’s overall influence. Some posters are arguing that it’s influence is overstated.
Probably. I still wouldn't link ot that person for any sort of argument. Maybe they didn't know though.
The games have always been memeable. The games were great for their time, but making a sequel that feels like it is from that era will automatically draw some ridicule to it. I get liking a game and thinking some criticisms may be exeggarated or just false. Like I called Jim out on some dumb stuff he wrote in his BoTW review (I don't care about the score), but I didn't call him hateful or mean towards the game and devs, or his entire review garbage.

You called it being sensitive, I call it zealous and defensive.
 

Poutine

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
526
I agree with most of what he said, I played the original Shenmue back in the Dreamcast days and never was able to finish it, the cheesy dialogue and the super slow pace got the best of me. A technical achievement, yes, a good game, not sure about that one.

To all those who like the game, I'm happy that this exists for you, just don't think that it will sell or that you will see a Shenmue 4 without another kickstarter campaign.
 

Collin Skeen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
136
Ewing, VA
I've been playing the remaster of Shenmue II to get me ready for the new one (I picked that one up from Best Buy on Black Friday) and I've been amazed at how it solves so many little problems/annoyances from the first game. It's been a totally different experience and I feel like I'm curiously wandering around instead of doing it because I have no idea where to go, lol. No matter how I feel about III when I get around to it, I'm happy I've finally given II the chance it deserves.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
South East Asia
I appreciate what Yu Suzuki has created but a part of me wishes this series was given to a more competent team.

Shenmue 1 & 2 has its charm but that was 20 years ago. It’s really hard for me to accept the janky gameplay and stilted dialog when so many indies do it better.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,986
Don't use the dregs of humanity to make a point about something being influential, it's gross.
I just knew he made a popular well reviewed game that sold well. I apologize for not researching his background before sharing the timely tweet he made yesterday, while others were arguing that Shenmue is not influential. No, I do not follow him on social media; his message was retweeted by either a Deep Silver or Shenmue fan account I follow, so I truly have no idea about his background aside from Kingdom Come and the Mafia series.

Why is everything so personal for some of you? I’m sorry I’ve taken exception with some of your arguments, truly, but can you stop with all the ad hominems and insinuations about people who disagree with you?
 
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OléGunner

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,205
At the end of the video Jimbo actually says he understands why people are so loyal to a niche game like Shenmue.
Most of us on Era have that pet game that we love but is uber niche and sells like crap (mine is Gravity Rush)

I think his main issue is with Suzuki's proclivity for spending vasts sums of money for games he feels aren't worth their budget considering the context above and how outdated they are compared to other games.
I humbly disagree, if the man is able to get in the piles of cash to make his games from a big publisher or Kickstarter even with a niche audience (who wants the old school approach the series is known for anyway!), so be it.

Again, I get the thrust of his argument but its a little bit punching down or ''bitch eating crackers''.
 

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
212
Probably. I still wouldn't link ot that person for any sort of argument. Maybe they didn't know though.
The games have always been memeable. The games were great for their time, but making a sequel that feels like it is from that era will automatically draw some ridicule to it. I get liking a game and thinking some criticisms may be exeggarated or just false. Like I called Jim out on some dumb stuff he wrote in his BoTW review (I don't care about the score), but I didn't call him hateful or mean towards the game and devs, or his entire review garbage.

You called it being sensitive, I call it zealous and defensive.
Tbh, I am bit surprised at so much criticism flying around because the game is quite faithful to the originals. Nowadays there are tonnes of indie games that emulate the look and gameplay of the 8/16 bit era and I don't think they're mocked for it, in fact many of them have been very well received. In any case, I think the controls have been fairly modernised even if the gameplay itself has largely remained the same.
 

Wink784

Member
Oct 27, 2017
721
Anytime Jim doesn‘t like something it‘s being called a waste of time like that‘s the reason why it‘s bad. But one man‘s waste of time is another‘s joy. Shit, the whole of videogames is a waste of time to a lot of people I talked to, this argument as a measurement of quality is just bs. I get it, Jim‘s a busy guy who has to move from videogame to videogame to make content about em and so games that meander are not to his liking, but it‘s not a universal rule that every game must be streamlined. I‘m just so bored by Jim‘s unnuanced game critiques.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
Tbh, I am bit surprised at so much criticism flying around because the game is quite faithful to the originals. Nowadays there are tonnes of indie games that emulate the look and gameplay of the 8/16 bit era and I don't think they're mocked for it, in fact many of them have been very well received. In any case, I think the controls have been fairly modernised even if the gameplay itself has largely remained the same.
Because the 16 bit era hasn't aged as poorly as the first 3D efforts. And the 8 bit era only gets emulated in look, certainly not gameplay, because that has aged poorly for the most part, too.

Shenmue 1&2 were great for their time but have aged poorly, so emulating something that aged poorly probably isn't the best strategy to reach a wider audience. The controls are still janky, even if they have been fairly modernized. The combat is jank. The voice acting is jank. The dialogue is jank. Everything is jank. It's ok liking jank, I do sometimes too. But I don't call people who point out it's janky hateful or trolls.

And reaching a wider audience is Jim's entire point. Suzuki is planning multiple of these things, he can't coast on the already existing fanbase forever, looking at how many deals he had to strike outside of the crowdfunding to even get this one done.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
9,599
Tbilisi, Georgia
This is the weirdest Jimquisition.

I've come to expect these videos to be about calling out malicious and shady practices within the industry. What...what exactly is being called out here? Shenmue existing and not being successful?
 

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
212
Because the 16 bit era hasn't aged as poorly as the first 3D efforts. And the 8 bit era only gets emulated in look, certainly not gameplay, because that has aged poorly for the most part, too.

Shenmue 1&2 were great for their time but have aged poorly, so emulating something that aged poorly probably isn't the best strategy to reach a wider audience. The controls are still janky, even if they have been fairly modernized. The combat is jank. The voice acting is jank. The dialogue is jank. Everything is jank. It's ok liking jank, I do sometimes too. But I don't call people who point out it's janky hateful or trolls.

And reaching a wider audience is Jim's entire point. Suzuki is planning multiple of these things, he can't coast on the already existing fanbase forever, looking at how many deals he had to strike outside of the crowdfunding to even get this one done.
First of all, I am not calling you a troll or anything remotely similar, and I wouldn;t agree with those who do.

If you talk about the first 3D efforts as in PS1/Saturn/N64 era then sure. However, the Dreamcast era I wouldn't quite agree. I'd argue games like Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis, Jet Set Radio, F355 and many others still hold up quite well in many ways. IMO, Shenmue still looks pretty decent, even if the controls were not great, but given that it effectively was a sort of graphical adventure/walking simulator+QTE+combats (where the controls changed anwyay), it never seemed to me a big issue.

Again, I can understand what you're saying about the game being janky, but the controls precisely don't seem particularly problematic as they could be in the originals. In any case, for me Shenmue's appeal was the recreation it did of "slice-of-life", and in that sense I don't quite see many games doing the same.
 
Aug 12, 2019
647
Damn, Era is a lot more sensitive about Shenmue than I guess. But I also guess it’s a Jim Sterling video, so people just hate it on that angle for some reason/also have no idea what Jimquisitions are (seriously, it’s always been whatever Jim wants to talk about that doesn’t quite fall into an impressions of a new game video, that’s all they’ve ever been).

What’s worse is that people seem to have not watched the video as usual and are quick to point out things like Shenmue’s influence when Jim acknowledges just that in the video and acknowledges that the first Shenmue was successful in its own right, but still always a niche title. And that’s kind of the whole point of the video. Yu Sazuki has been given millions upon millions of dollars to try to create his vision with no limiters, and it has almost always resulted in underperforming titles that are unsustainable productions, particularly due to his unwillingness to compromise anything about the series and the need to keep expanding the scope. The Waterworld comparison absolutely works within that frame of reference.

Shenmue III proves that Sazuki, at the very least, is a bad project manager. $12 million is a lot to make a game with as others have pointed out, yet Shenmue III absolutely does look and by all accounts play terribly dated, and it’s just not really living up to the budget and support it has received. Which is made even worse by the fact it looks to have continued the tradition of just being super niche and then hard to turn profit via the sales data.

People are allowed to like it as much as they want, but it’s also really hard to deny the overall point that Shenmue is a niche series with a disproportionate amount of money thrown at it developed by a director who has no restraint in anything he does and is, by all accounts, very much a man out of his own time at this point since he hasn’t developed a title besides mobile options in almost two decades.

This is just one man’s analysis of the Shenmue series through his lens and I don’t understand why people seem so defensive over this and so critical of Jim like this isn’t his usual MO to begin with. Jim is a critic with a specific voice, you should know by now how you handle that voice lol.
 

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
212
Damn, Era is a lot more sensitive about Shenmue than I guess. But I also guess it’s a Jim Sterling video, so people just hate it on that angle for some reason/also have no idea what Jimquisitions are (seriously, it’s always been whatever Jim wants to talk about that doesn’t quite fall into an impressions of a new game video, that’s all they’ve ever been).

What’s worse is that people seem to have not watched the video as usual and are quick to point out things like Shenmue’s influence when Jim acknowledges just that in the video and acknowledges that the first Shenmue was successful in its own right, but still always a niche title. And that’s kind of the whole point of the video. Yu Sazuki has been given millions upon millions of dollars to try to create his vision with no limiters, and it has almost always resulted in underperforming titles that are unsustainable productions, particularly due to his unwillingness to compromise anything about the series and the need to keep expanding the scope. The Waterworld comparison absolutely works within that frame of reference.

Shenmue III proves that Sazuki, at the very least, is a bad project manager. $12 million is a lot to make a game with as others have pointed out, yet Shenmue III absolutely does look and by all accounts play terribly dated, and it’s just not really living up to the budget and support it has received. Which is made even worse by the fact it looks to have continued the tradition of just being super niche and then hard to turn profit via the sales data.

People are allowed to like it as much as they want, but it’s also really hard to deny the overall point that Shenmue is a niche series with a disproportionate amount of money thrown at it developed by a director who has no restraint in anything he does and is, by all accounts, very much a man out of his own time at this point since he hasn’t developed a title besides mobile options in almost two decades.

This is just one man’s analysis of the Shenmue series through his lens and I don’t understand why people seem so defensive over this and so critical of Jim like this isn’t his usual MO to begin with. Jim is a critic with a specific voice, you should know by now how you handle that voice lol.
Well, Yu Suzuki was key in the making of really successful games like Space Harrier, Outrun and Virtua Fighter, among others. The reason why he was given a big budget for Shenmue is because of his pedigree. With Shenmue he clearly flopped comercially, though he pushed boundaries and the game clearly had a clear identity that many people still liked, which is why many of us wanted a sequel even after all those years.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
First of all, I am not calling you a troll or anything remotely similar, and I wouldn;t agree with those who do.

If you talk about the first 3D efforts as in PS1/Saturn/N64 era then sure. However, the Dreamcast era I wouldn't quite agree. I'd argue games like Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis, Jet Set Radio, F355 and many others still hold up quite well in many ways. IMO, Shenmue still looks pretty decent, even if the controls were not great, but given that it effectively was a sort of graphical adventure/walking simulator+QTE+combats (where the controls changed anwyay), it never seemed to me a big issue.

Again, I can understand what you're saying about the game being janky, but the controls precisely don't seem particularly problematic as they could be in the originals. In any case, for me Shenmue's appeal was the recreation it did of "slice-of-life", and in that sense I don't quite see many games doing the same.
Oh I wasn't talking about myself but Jim getting called that, but thanks for you not doing that anyway, much apprechiated. :)
Shenmue's looks were never the problem. (Maybe they are with 3 though). I think a lot of people exptedc a greater jump, and others are fine with the way things are.

When it comes to the slice of life aspect, you're absolutely right.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
Does he even monetize his videos? And if he wanted to make money, you think Shenmue of all games is the one he would want to do it with? The game he says himself gained barely any marketing and traction? Like, people aren't going to sub to his Patreon because of this.
He has a Patreon that lets fans subscribe and pay him money. His free videos are a path to that subscription model. This is literally content creation 101, so whether he monetises his Shenmue videos or not is moot. Fact is, 3 videos on the same topic in little over a year isn’t raising awareness or highlighting a bad trend in the industry anymore (like a lot of his early videos were). It’s just shit posting, pot stirring and click generating on his behalf.

im honestly surprised his shit still gets posted here considering as it’s nothing more than trolling at this point. it’s even more surprising that people still defend it seeing how toxic it is.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,537
He has a Patreon that lets fans subscribe and pay him money. His free videos are a path to that subscription model. This is literally content creation 101, so whether he monetises his Shenmue videos or not is moot. Fact is, 3 videos on the same topic in little over a year isn’t raising awareness or highlighting a bad trend in the industry anymore (like a lot of his early videos were). It’s just shit posting, pot stirring and click generating on his behalf.

im honestly surprised his shit still gets posted here considering as it’s nothing more than trolling at this point. it’s even more surprising that people still defend it seeing how toxic it is.
Acting like negative Shenmue videos are some secret sauce to get people subscribed to his patreon is nonsense though. Most people don't even care about this game existing.

He's not toxic just because you can't handle him having a different opinion than you over a videogame. He covered the kickstarter/Epic Games controversy, the Shenmue remaster, the hilarious posts from super defensive fanboys and now Shenmue 3. Big fucking deal.
 

AcidCat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,191
Bellingham WA
Acting like negative Shenmue videos are some secret sauce to get people subscribed to his patreon is nonsense though. Most people don't even care about this game existing.

He's not toxic just because you can't handle him having a different opinion than you over a videogame. He covered the kickstarter/Epic Games controversy, the Shenmue remaster, the hilarious posts from super defensive fanboys and now Shenmue 3. Big fucking deal.
Yep, nothing "TOXIC" about Jim, he has opinions, he generally explains them pretty well. I guess if you bind your identity up with a videogame, when someone criticizes it, that may hurt, but that's not a real healthy place to be.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
Acting like negative Shenmue videos are some secret sauce to get people subscribed to his patreon is nonsense though. Most people don't even care about this game existing.

He's not toxic just because you can't handle him having a different opinion than you over a videogame. He covered the kickstarter/Epic Games controversy, the Shenmue remaster, the hilarious posts from super defensive fanboys and now Shenmue 3. Big fucking deal.
Opinions are fine, but what’s Jim trying to tell us with his 3rd video on the same topic? We know his opinion. It’s not changing. So what else is it other than hate?

I’m beyond giving a fuck whether people like X or Y but I do take issue with people on platforms spreading hate. It’s as simple as that. that’s why I’m shocked people can be so defensive of his videos as they bring nothing good to the media scape. So I have to ask. Why do you care that I don’t like Jim that much?

you can plug your ears all you like but the fact is Jim makes these videos to generate attention and bring in an audience to his subscription model. Otherwise he wouldn’t have a Patreon buddy. You’re the third or fourth person to hand wave this claim with me in this thread, it’s astounding.

Yep, nothing "TOXIC" about Jim, he has opinions, he generally explains them pretty well. I guess if you bind your identity up with a videogame, when someone criticizes it, that may hurt, but that's not a real healthy place to be.
so what are they then, if they aren’t toxic? The last part of your quote is a gigantic leap and assumption of a lot of posters....I understand this may be hard to grasp for some, but when you start a subscription based service to your “opinions” you unfortunately blur the line between what is your opinion and what is your “content” - 3 videos on the same thing is a pretty good example of that blur 😕
 
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Garlador

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,560
That’s exactly it. People keep insisting—in this thread—the series was always trash and not influential, yet I constantly see big developers citing it as a huge influence and praising Yu Suzuki for what he accomplished. It’s like they can’t separate their personal opinions from facts. I don’t really understand how we’re even still trying to argue Yu Suzuki and Shenmue aren’t hugely influential in 2019, but I suppose time erases everything...

You are totally fine to think it’s the most boring, janky, annoying series ever. It’s just ridiculous to see people try to rewrite history because they personally didn’t enjoy something.
That's what I was getting at earlier. I don't know the age of some of the posters, but in 1999 Shenmue was making serious noise and despite the Dreamcast's failure it made waves that are felt in countless games today. So it's very weird to have so many posters say "it's not influential" or "these type of games existed earlier, it's not that special" without remembering (or being alive) for the context of what this game did and how many countless developers saw it evolve the medium.

And it's okay not to like it, but it's as weird to me as someone going "you know, Mario 64 isn't that good and I don't see how it influenced any future game" or "Ocarina of Time is overrated. I don't think it was influential at all" or "Resident Evil is a relic of the past - it looks and controls poorly. Surely this could never have influenced so many great games", etc.

Like, okay, many don't like it (many didn't in 1999 either), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal at the time and inspired many developers. I do keep coming across random drive-by posts saying the series was not influential and wasn't unique or special and it just makes me feel like I stepped into another dimension where Shenmue wasn't widely accepted as being a groundbreaking title for the past 20 years....
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,758
Yep, nothing "TOXIC" about Jim, he has opinions, he generally explains them pretty well. I guess if you bind your identity up with a videogame, when someone criticizes it, that may hurt, but that's not a real healthy place to be.
Yea just like how no thread on Era are actually toxic. If you bind your identity to a game and feel offended by some threads , thats on you. /s
 

JayCeeJim

Member
Jan 3, 2019
135
I think most will agree that the second game is inferior to the first and probably feels more like an expansion pack just like the third installment. But I can understand that he went with what worked but for the story first and foremost, there's a lot to be left as ire considering the progression has been so lacking that it only exacerbates all the other flaws in the actual core of the gameplay.
I don't think "most" agree that the first game is superior to the second. I'd say the consensus was pretty split on its day, and the more time has passed and the less impressive the technical feats of the series have become, more people lean to favor II.

And what is absolute bollocks is saying the second game feels like an expansion pack, when the setting and the world building are so fundamentally different. I would compare them to the evolution from Mario Sunshine to Mario Galaxy, indeed. One is much more open, detailed and constrained, while the sequel is much more linear, but focused and content packed.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,758
Because the 16 bit era hasn't aged as poorly as the first 3D efforts. And the 8 bit era only gets emulated in look, certainly not gameplay, because that has aged poorly for the most part, too.

Shenmue 1&2 were great for their time but have aged poorly, so emulating something that aged poorly probably isn't the best strategy to reach a wider audience. The controls are still janky, even if they have been fairly modernized. The combat is jank. The voice acting is jank. The dialogue is jank. Everything is jank. It's ok liking jank, I do sometimes too. But I don't call people who point out it's janky hateful or trolls.

And reaching a wider audience is Jim's entire point. Suzuki is planning multiple of these things, he can't coast on the already existing fanbase forever, looking at how many deals he had to strike outside of the crowdfunding to even get this one done.
Ok lets not go into the "Everything is Jank". Given the budget of the game would you rather have them focussed on fixing/polishing the combat,controls and voice acting instead of what makes the game unique like the NPCs,World,Story ? Wouldn't that disappoint the fans who literally made this possible in the first place ?

Given the budget this game was always going to be a hard to make. Maybe if it was made by a developer who already had a lot of these things done it could have been possible on that budget. But this is literally Ys Net first console game.

Jims video isn't even a game review , he can review the game and give it a 2/10 and nobody would actually care. But making a video on why something shouldn't exist is just hateful.

Also for the person you were quoting , a lot of people in this thread were just denying Shenmues influence on gaming. I don't think they were referring to Jims video on influence , since even Jim acknowledges the first two games were very influential and groundbreaking.
 

JayCeeJim

Member
Jan 3, 2019
135
There's a saying tht bad publicity is better than no publicity. So maybe it's a good thing for Shenmue to be exposed to the 800K subscribers of Jim Sterling...
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,690
And that’s kind of the whole point of the video. Yu Sazuki has been given millions upon millions of dollars to try to create his vision with no limiters, and it has almost always resulted in underperforming titles that are unsustainable productions, particularly due to his unwillingness to compromise anything about the series and the need to keep expanding the scope. The Waterworld comparison absolutely works within that frame of reference.

Shenmue III proves that Sazuki, at the very least, is a bad project manager. $12 million is a lot to make a game with as others have pointed out, yet Shenmue III absolutely does look and by all accounts play terribly dated, and it’s just not really living up to the budget and support it has received. Which is made even worse by the fact it looks to have continued the tradition of just being super niche and then hard to turn profit via the sales data.
I watched the video yesterday an was super confused as to what the point was an this threads not cleared it up any. Is the point here that Jim should be the arbiter of who does and doesn't get money to make videogames? Or that instead of providing the majority of the money that went into making the game, that fans shoulda put their money elsewhere (cause obviously we've never bought/supported any other games since 2001/2002)? imo Shenmue 3 sucks ass an not for the reasons most haters throw at it ("dated" lol) butfor the modern game elements that got stuffed into it (rpg elements ohhh boyyyy!). I don't got any regrets for backing it. To which generic 2D pixel fueled retro styled puzzle platorming 'vania styled souls-like indie game should the money have gone to instead, I wonder? Maybe its about how much moneys been involved in Shenmue as a whole or should anyone who's repeatedly made unselling/unpopular games be driven outta the industry regardless of their budgets? Are we supposed ta see Suzuki as another Inafune-style "conman"? I really dun get it.
 

Shadoken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,758
Shenmue III proves that Sazuki, at the very least, is a bad project manager. $12 million is a lot to make a game with as others have pointed out, yet Shenmue III absolutely does look and by all accounts play terribly dated, and it’s just not really living up to the budget and support it has received. Which is made even worse by the fact it looks to have continued the tradition of just being super niche and then hard to turn profit via the sales data.
This is the mistake that keeps perpetuating in this thread and the video. $12m is not a lot for a game of this scope , even the Yakuza games have a far bigger budget and they heavily reuse assets.

Also a good portion of Shenmue 1 and 2's budget when into R&D. Shenmue was doing things no other game at Sega or any company was doing.