Shenzhen Tech Girl Naomi Wu: My experience with Sarah Jeong, Jason Koebler, and Vice Magazine

House_Of_Lightning · Aug 7, 2018

https://medium.com/@therealsexycybo...-jason-koebler-and-vice-magazine-3f4a32fda9b5

Vice is, in many circles (and in my opinion), seen as a pretty disgusting media outlet that peddles in poverty tourism. I don't think I've read or watched a single piece by them that couldn't have resulted in someone getting gulag'd or killed.

Naomi Wu is known as SexyCyborg(NSFW), a woman from Shenzhen known for her interesting takes on tech, cyberpunk, and probably more famously for her own personal style. She has received ire from different people and from all over the political spectrum. She has also spent time posting on both English and Chinese forums regarding gender and race issues in the mainland.

Vice ultimately took an opportunity to highlight Ms. Wu's work and instead used that opportunity to source racist and sexist 4chan and Reddit garbage conspiracies and put her in an incredibly compromising, and dangerous, position.

When the Vice reporter came in January 2018, I showed them around Shenzhen for three days. During this visit, I brought the reporter to my home, long enough for the reporter to get an in-depth idea of my circumstances. In my home, I worked on an automated bartender project I had built for a friends bar- to address with the best possible evidence the ongoing Internet smear campaign against me that only a White man could do work like mine. All this was apparently not juicy enough for Vice. Frankly, it's very rare I get accused of not being click-baity enough just being myself.

The Vice reporter returned home to NYC and in the following week began to ask the questions about my personal life it had been agreed were off limits. I was given the "opportunity" to address anonymous 4chan/Reddit speculation about my personal life from the ongoing harassment campaign against me- or look guilty in silence. This is not professional, this is not journalism:

I was then put in touch with the editor-in-chief Jason Koebler. He dismissed it- arrogantly sure he understood the threat model of a Chinese women with a massive social media following who had been outspoken on local gender issues, while at the same time making it absolutely clear he did not understand at all or frankly even care enough to Google what is a routine occurrence in China in these circumstances.

No one will tell you I am a typical Chinese girl. I have a difficult background. I have had to fight for everything my whole life. When I became a tech enthusiast, due to my strange appearance I had to fight to be allowed to speak at events, and then fight for other Chinese women to be allowed to speak as well. In the West powerful men declared there was no way a Chinese girl could do what I do. I beat them and proved them wrong also. Still, if needed I will show up with my soldering iron and my kit anywhere if anyone doubts me. I am no coward to be easily bullied. My mother taught me that one day a man will beat you, and you should keep getting up until his hand is broken to teach him the lesson that it will never be easy. I live by that.

She's taking a queue from Sarah Jeong and hoping that an appeal to common decency at large will help.

Sarah Jeong wrote an article on the use of "unmasking" to address abuse on the Internet when you are absolutely without recourse, in this case this was not the hurtful language and threats I get a thousand times a day, this was the potential for very real and personal harm. My attacker would not stop, would not listen to reason, did not care what harm might come to me. I don't care if someone gives himself a pretty title he does not deserve and tries to hide behind it. If you earn a living hurting people weaker than you, you are no journalist and do not get to claim the protections of that honorable profession.

Despite Vice's firmly established track record of deception and truly disgusting behavior, particularly towards women in vulnerable positions- people actually bought it. That breaking an agreement with me, that putting me in danger- this was nothing because some sleazy grown man in Brooklyn who was willing to endanger a young woman for a few extra clicks had a publicly available address shown for five seconds on a shoe- he was the real victim. Or at least the kind of victim Americans actually care about.

Except that Sarah Jeong ended up siding with Vice and attempted to harass Ms. Wu further.

Sarah did not come to listen, mediate, or learn- she was sent by Jason Koebler to destroy me and protect a business model that has endangered voiceless sources in the developing World countless times.

There is a bias all Asians fight of a monolithic Asian identity. That East Asia is all basically the same- Chinese, Japanese, Korean- "whatever". Sarah is well aware of this bias and used it to persuade people who were on the fence whether to support me in my desperate bid for Vice to honor their agreement. In the multi-page rant she directed at me, she said the following:

Ms. Wu rejects Sarah Jeong's nativism.

Then Sarah drops a veritable atom bomb of an Appeal to Authority, she is Korean (having lived a full week as an adult in Korea). South Korea is pretty much the same as Mainland China, therefore I was never in any danger. She invokes the monolithic Asian culture myth precisely because she knows her largely White audience believes this anyway.

This article hits a nerve with me because:

a> I've been a fan of Naomi Wu's tech and social positions and how she pushes boundaries in a very conservative China

b> Vice is garbage

c> I'm a white dude who has been assaulted in areas of China because I'm married to a Chinese woman. My FiL is a Party member and it has caused (minor) issues with him. This Tweet is ignorance on a ridiculous level.

Pixel Grotto · Aug 7, 2018

You might want to put a link to the original Vice article in the OP as well as a link to all of Sarah Jeong's tweets since this is sort of a complex scenario.

This article is also fairly useful in explaining why Naomi is paranoid about having her personal life in an article.

All in all it sounds like a impressively large case of cultural misunderstanding to me - Naomi was unaware of the type of piece that Vice specializes in, lost her cool and exposed someone's private information without thinking. Vice wanted to dig deep to get her take on social issues which are currently hot in the US but the reporter and the editor weren't entirely aware that public figures in China are not as free to talk about these sort of things the way they do in America. I think both sides probably didn't handle things well - Naomi shouldn't have done the doxxing and Vice should have stuck with the initial agreement to not go into her personal life. I imagine there was a lot of back and forth that we don't know about, hence this whole thing escalating.

As for Sarah Jeong I agree that the tweet you highlighted is her seemingly being unaware of the political situation in China. She's a Korean American and seems to be looking at this from that sort of lens, but anyone who has actually lived in Mainland China for a significant period of time will know that you can't really compare the two. A prominent celebrity who has a white husband in South Korea can speak on gender issues, politics and inclusivity without running into the same kind of nationalism and danger of being "invited for tea" by government officials that often occurs in China.

All in all it's an interesting case of reporters in Brooklyn and a maker in Shenzhen misinterpreting and misunderstanding each other.

Last but not least, Hong Kong's more cyberpunk than Shenzhen.

House_Of_Lightning · Aug 7, 2018

Pixel Grotto said:
You might want to put a link to the original Vice article in the OP as well as a link to all of Sarah Jeong's tweets since this is sort of a complex scenario.

This article is also fairly useful in explaining why Naomi is paranoid about having her personal life in an article.

All in all it sounds like a impressively large case of cultural misunderstanding to me - Naomi was unaware of the type of piece that Vice specializes in, lost her cool and exposed someone's private information without thinking. Vice wanted to dig deep to get her take on social issues which are currently hot in the US but the reporter and the editor weren't entirely aware that public figures in China are not as free to talk about these sort of things the way they do in America. I think both sides probably didn't handle things well - Naomi shouldn't have done the doxxing and Vice should have stuck with the initial agreement to not go into her personal life. I imagine there was a lot of back and forth that we don't know about, hence this whole thing escalating.

As for Sarah Jeong I agree that the tweet you highlighted is her seemingly being unaware of the political situation in China. She's a Korean American and seems to be looking at this from that sort of lens, but anyone who has actually lived in Mainland China for a significant period of time will know that you can't really compare the two. A prominent celebrity who has a white husband in South Korea can speak on gender issues, politics and inclusivity without running into the same kind of nationalism and danger of being "invited for tea" by government officials that often occurs in China.

All in all it's an interesting case of reporters in Brooklyn and a maker in Shenzhen misinterpreting and misunderstanding each other.

Last but not least, Hong Kong's more cyberpunk than Shenzhen.

Thanks for the additional context !

picklesthefirecat · Aug 7, 2018

Pixel Grotto said:
You might want to put a link to the original Vice article in the OP as well as a link to all of Sarah Jeong's tweets since this is sort of a complex scenario.

This article is also fairly useful in explaining why Naomi is paranoid about having her personal life in an article.

All in all it sounds like a impressively large case of cultural misunderstanding to me - Naomi was unaware of the type of piece that Vice specializes in, lost her cool and exposed someone's private information without thinking. Vice wanted to dig deep to get her take on social issues which are currently hot in the US but the reporter and the editor weren't entirely aware that public figures in China are not as free to talk about these sort of things the way they do in America. I think both sides probably didn't handle things well - Naomi shouldn't have done the doxxing and Vice should have stuck with the initial agreement to not go into her personal life. I imagine there was a lot of back and forth that we don't know about, hence this whole thing escalating.

As for Sarah Jeong I agree that the tweet you highlighted is her seemingly being unaware of the political situation in China. She's a Korean American and seems to be looking at this from that sort of lens, but anyone who has actually lived in Mainland China for a significant period of time will know that you can't really compare the two. A prominent celebrity who has a white husband in South Korea can speak on gender issues, politics and inclusivity without running into the same kind of nationalism and danger of being "invited for tea" by government officials that often occurs in China.

All in all it's an interesting case of reporters in Brooklyn and a maker in Shenzhen misinterpreting and misunderstanding each other.

Last but not least, Hong Kong's more cyberpunk than Shenzhen.

It's the responsibility of reporters, editors, and publishers to protect their subjects. Vice failing in that isn't really a misunderstanding, it's more a violation.

Jintor · Aug 7, 2018

This is a fucked situation in like 6 different ways. I'm a big fan of Naomi but also of Sarah, so it's difficult to totally assign blame on one side or the other. It is definitely however totally fucked

I definitely don't think vice looks good based on this

Deleted member 907 · Aug 8, 2018

If it was really that bad for white guys in Asia, sexpats and LBH wouldn't be a thing, muchless local economies catering to them.

You make it sound like they're on their way to resurrecting the Boxer Rebellion on a continental scale or something.

Pixel Grotto · Aug 8, 2018

picklesthefirecat said:
It's the responsibility of reporters, editors, and publishers to protect their subjects. Vice failing in that isn't really a misunderstanding, it's more a violation.

Agreed; I'm just saying that it feels like neither the editor nor the writer in charge of this piece really understood what they would have to protect, especially with regards to the political climate in China or why Naomi might fly into paranoia over parts of this story. Vice in the past has operated largely with freelancers and stringers especially where their foreign reporting is concerned and the editors usually rely on those people (often locals or expats) to give them an idea of the limits and preferences of their subject as well as the local environment. In this case, they apparently sent one of their SF-based reporters over to Shenzhen instead, which is interesting. While I have no way of knowing how knowledgeable the writer is about China, I get the feeling that a journalist who'd spent significant time in the country and seen the reports of Chinese protesters being harassed by the police when they speak out about gender issues may have have handled things differently.

Power of Sparda said:
If it was really that bad for white guys in Asia, sexpats and LBH wouldn't be a thing, muchless local economies catering to them.

You make it sound like they're on their way to resurrecting the Boxer Rebellion on a continental scale or something.

I don't think anyone is saying it's bad for white guys in Asia - I think the situation here is that Naomi is quite the public figure in Shenzhen and has a large number of people obsessing over her life. Lots of nationalistic folk on the Chinese internet call her fake and wouldn't hesitate to do a "human flesh search" (stalking/doxxing) if they heard any shred of info about her having a boyfriend (especially a white one) which is why she wanted to keep the info private. She was also probably afraid of Party cadres maybe digging into her private life if she said anything considered too radical, and dating a foreigner is just extra ammo for them to use against her.

CranberryMuffin · Aug 8, 2018

Did Jason Koebler nuke his twitter history after this was published? That's one response I suppose.

WillyTheBikeGuy · Aug 8, 2018

Fuck Vice.

Chindogg · Aug 8, 2018

Meanwhile, NY Times critic Amanda Hess decides to use Wu's image as some sort of point about objectification and cyberfeminism.

On a side note, it is interesting to see Jeong's Twitter profile saying she's soon to be on NYT's editorial board.

KillLaCam · Aug 8, 2018

Damn I thought that Naomi had settled the issues with vice but I guess not. They have entertaining stuff, even the poverty stuff. Because someone needs to show some of it. But my opinion of them keeps getting worse.

Didn't realize Sarah Jeong was that ignorant. She might be thinking of Chinese American and Korean American culture being kind of similar because she's definitely not thinking of actual Chinese and Korean culture. Even if she only spent a week there she should have been able to tell differences right away.

Never heard of people getting in fights outside of bars and clubs because they have a Chinese wife tho . I understand that the men to women ratio would make some people upset about foreigners being with Chinese women but that's insane. I hope you weren't in a decent area when that happened. It'll make it alot worse. I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

TaleSpun · Aug 8, 2018

I read this article the other day and my first thought was: The fish rots from the head down. Vice's whole brand is being the sort of "counter-culture" element of journalism, but it's this kinda stuff that reminds you the old ways do have some merit. You'll find all kinds of complaints about the NYT, WaPo, etc. but one thing you basically never read about is reporters and editors fucking over sources.

I do want to say I like a lot of what VICE News and VICELAND does (or did in VICELANDs case) and that stuff seems* like it's pretty responsibly produced. And I like Jeong. This doesn't paint a flattering picture of her, but she's done some good work.

(*= "seems" being a key word. Editing is an art form.)

Chindogg said:
On a side note, it is interesting to see Jeong's Twitter profile saying she's soon to be on NYT's editorial board.

Part of the reason this has come up again is Sarah getting hired by the NYT. It was mixed in with the alt-right shitheads trying to get her fired for tweets so it was easy to miss, but yeah, the Times isn't going to axe her. That ship has sailed.

ParanoidRED · Aug 8, 2018

Vice is scummy as fuck goddamn

House_Of_Lightning · Aug 8, 2018

I feel for the Waypoint team at this point. Seemingly decent people having to deal with this as their representation.

vypek · Aug 8, 2018

Damn, this is pretty awful

spam musubi · Aug 8, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
I feel for the Waypoint team at this point. Seemingly decent people having to deal with this as their representation.

I mean, they should have known who they were getting in bed with. It's nice that vice gives them room to do their thing, but I wonder if they're better off just spinning off and doing their own thing. Probably not financially feasible.

House_Of_Lightning · Aug 8, 2018

nynt9 said:
I mean, they should have known who they were getting in bed with. It's nice that vice gives them room to do their thing, but I wonder if they're better off just spinning off and doing their own thing. Probably not financially feasible.

Wasn't Waypoint some folks spinning off of other media to begin with? Austin with GB and the like?

see5harp · Aug 8, 2018

I have way more of a history and connection with Vice than I do with Waypoint. I don't get why so many here seem to want to jump on Vice and everything they do and defend a couple videogame streamers.

Dingens · Aug 8, 2018

Not surprising coming from the "liberal version" of the daily mail. Infotainment without scruples.
Even more though, as Wu pointed out correctly, there's a frighteningly high degree of cultural ignorance at play, not even understanding what they are doing. Well, as always: profits > morals

Deleted member 907 · Aug 8, 2018

see5harp said:
I have way more of a history and connection with Vice than I do with Waypoint. I don't get why so many here seem to want to jump on Vice and everything they do and defend a couple videogame streamers.

Hahaha...you know why.

Kinthey · Aug 8, 2018

Power of Sparda said:
If it was really that bad for white guys in Asia, sexpats and LBH wouldn't be a thing, muchless local economies catering to them.

You make it sound like they're on their way to resurrecting the Boxer Rebellion on a continental scale or something.

Are those a thing in China?

Pixel Grotto · Aug 8, 2018

Kinthey said:
Are those a thing in China?

When I spent a summer in Beijing in 2009 you could still see lots of old creepy white dudes with their 20 something concubines around the club districts, but now that doesn't seem as frequent, especially in big Chinese cities which continue to modernize at a super fast rate.

House_Of_Lightning · Aug 9, 2018

see5harp said:
I have way more of a history and connection with Vice than I do with Waypoint. I don't get why so many here seem to want to jump on Vice and everything they do and defend a couple videogame streamers.

Did you not read the thread? Did you not read the article in the OP? It's pretty obvious why Vice is garbage.

Apathy · Aug 9, 2018

Man that tweet by sarah...just wow.

shnurgleton · Aug 9, 2018

I'm very confused

Messofanego · Aug 9, 2018

see5harp said:
I have way more of a history and connection with Vice than I do with Waypoint. I don't get why so many here seem to want to jump on Vice and everything they do and defend a couple videogame streamers.

Waypoint hasn't done shady shit like Vice has, including the article in the OP. Pretty simple.

mael · Aug 9, 2018

I like what Vice is doing regarding the Charlottesville event last year but this is straight up BS they're doing here.

Jonnax · Aug 9, 2018

It's charitable to say that Vice's employees suffered from cultural diffrrences. They knew what they were doing and didn't care.

Deleted member 23212 · Aug 9, 2018

What I find most peculiar is that Sarah Jeong asked one person on the topic of marriage and then just treated it as a closed case, because apparently no more research needs to be done.

Zen · Aug 9, 2018

Vice is a trash tier outlet when it comes to documentaries or journos. They all have a singular focus with little to no exploration beyond shock factor and little research beyond the core subjects (interviewees) of their piece.

I saw the docu with her. They probably picked her in part because she wears more revealing and unorthodox clothing, unfortunately. Her skill as a tech enthusiast seems to have been an afterthought.

Metallix87 · Aug 9, 2018

Second time in a week that I'm left thinking that Sarah Jeong is a scummy person, and apparently a pretty shitty journalist, as well.

As far as Vice is considered, not too surprised that they look like trash yet again.

see5harp · Aug 9, 2018

Messofanego said:
Waypoint hasn't done shady shit like Vice has, including the article in the OP. Pretty simple.

Waypoint I have no idea how they contribute anything remotely unique or interesting. Yesterday there were like 5 different vice articles on page one of the OT forum.

Tom_Cody · Aug 9, 2018

What a fucking mess. Everyone comes off terribly.

Messofanego · Aug 9, 2018

see5harp said:
Waypoint I have no idea how they contribute anything remotely unique or interesting. Yesterday there were like 5 different vice articles on page one of the OT forum.

Disagree but not the point. This is off-topic, it's about controversies that Vice gets involved in. Not about the quality of the content.

see5harp · Aug 9, 2018

Messofanego said:
Disagree but not the point. This is off-topic, it's about controversies that Vice gets involved in. Not about the quality of the content.

I've been reading Vice Magazine and their content for well over a decade. Certainly some of their material is controversial. That's been their model since before they even had a large presence in media. But I don't know if I could name a single writer or editor from their staff who consistently does problematic shit. If you want to cherry pick shit here and there after years and years of articles and videos cool.

Baji Boxer · Aug 9, 2018

see5harp said:
Waypoint I have no idea how they contribute anything remotely unique or interesting. Yesterday there were like 5 different vice articles on page one of the OT forum.

They have articles and a podcast that is far more overtly progressive and political than most big game sites.

see5harp · Aug 9, 2018

A videogame podcast? No!

Baji Boxer · Aug 9, 2018

see5harp said:
A videogame podcast? No!

Yes!

Ombra · Aug 9, 2018

Apathy said:
Man that tweet by sarah...just wow.

A level of tone deafness I would not have expected. They are so not the same in any fashion.

Apathy · Aug 9, 2018

Ombra said:
A level of tone deafness I would not have expected. They are so not the same in any fashion.

You know living one whole week in a country vs your whole life, you can see who the expert would be. Lol

ZeroX · Aug 9, 2018

Just a reminder that Vice is trash

Deleted member 15326 · Aug 9, 2018

People were falling over themselves to big up Jeong last week but she seems like a lost one

MotionBlue · Aug 9, 2018

Vice is garbage. The more I learn about Jeong the more I question how the NYT hired her.

Mesoian · Aug 9, 2018

MotionBlue said:
Vice is garbage. The more I learn about Jeong the more I question how the NYT hired her.

I mean...sounds like a lot of people aren't happy about it.

I don't know where to fall on all this. Everyone looks bad.

Deleted member 907 · Aug 9, 2018

Sarah Jeong really shook a lot of white guys with those tweets. This is nothing more than an extension the previous thread with the outrage at an Asian woman that dares to speak out against white supremacy in a vulgar fashion. Some of you acting like white worship not being a thing in Asia are transparent as fuck.

The most surprising thing about this thread is not seeing more of you talk about having an Asian gf/wife.

see5harp · Aug 9, 2018

I think it's only fair that Vice go through the same sorta changes that all other huge media companies have gone through but going back through their history when anyone who remembers what the magazine was is sorta silly. The damn magazine was sex, drugs, porn, and commenting on male and females based on their looks alone. That's why the readership liked it. That was the entire point.

tuxfool · Aug 9, 2018

Mesoian said:
I mean...sounds like a lot of people aren't happy about it.

I don't know where to fall on all this. Everyone looks bad.

Trash recognises trash.

House_Of_Lightning · Aug 10, 2018

Mesoian said:
I mean...sounds like a lot of people aren't happy about it.

I don't know where to fall on all this. Everyone looks bad.

"Let he without the bad tweet cast the first stone"

I mean..... there are plenty of people who aren't frothingly shit posting on Twitter in the absolute worst ways and pretending like her Tweets are something normal and decent people do is pretty shitty.

I don't post like that on Twitter and neither do pretty much any of my peers, male, female, or a person of color or white.

And if they do, they aren't dumb enough to put their real name and profession on it.

Shenzhen Tech Girl Naomi Wu: My experience with Sarah Jeong, Jason Koebler, and Vice Magazine

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