Shmups (Shoot 'Em Ups) |OT| THE FULL EXTENT OF THE JAM

Oct 25, 2017
2,202
I'd love a shooter that isn't bullet hell, TBH. Haven't done any research at all so I'm probably wrong, but everything seems to be about dodging bullets and not much else. Something with the intensity of something like R-Type, but vertical (and with environmental objects, of course), would be perfect.
Nah, you're pretty much right. Vertical-screen games in the genre have always shied away from terrain. Some of Psikyo's games are a bit closer to Raiden than Cave in terms of style, if that helps.

Personally, I think the distinction is overstated outside of aesthetics, but I get the desire for more terrain stuff. I'm hoping ZeroRanger makes its way to the Switch, because it's a recent masterpiece that sounds more in line with what you're asking for.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,221
United States
I'd love a shooter that isn't bullet hell, TBH. Haven't done any research at all so I'm probably wrong, but everything seems to be about dodging bullets and not much else. Something with the intensity of something like R-Type, but vertical (and with environmental objects, of course), would be perfect.

Fake edit: Oh, Raiden IV is coming to Switch. Sweet.
Wii U, not Switch, but Soldier Blade is better than every single shmup on the Switch currently.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
Did I miss an announcement?? Where did you see this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raiden_IV
Grain of salt etc., but it looks like it's confirmed? I'll do some more hunting for details.

Nah, you're pretty much right. Vertical-screen games in the genre have always shied away from terrain. Some of Psikyo's games are a bit closer to Raiden than Cave in terms of style, if that helps.

Personally, I think the distinction is overstated outside of aesthetics, but I get the desire for more terrain stuff. I'm hoping ZeroRanger makes its way to the Switch, because it's a recent masterpiece that sounds more in line with what you're asking for.
Ah, shame. Glad you appreciate where I'm coming from though, was worried I didn't explain myself clearly enough.
 
Jan 30, 2018
2,814
Has anyone here played Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire, AKA Galaxy Policewomen Legend Sapphire? It was that PC Engine shmup spin-off of the Galaxy Fraulein Yuna adventure game series? It looks and sounds super good. It was on the Galaxy Fraulein Collection on PSP, but unfortunately it's quite expensive now. I don't necessarily mind spending that much if the game is amazing, but I wanted to get some opinions from you guys.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,473
I definitely haven't heard anything about any Raiden games coming to Switch.

Has anyone here played Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire, AKA Galaxy Policewomen Legend Sapphire? It was that PC Engine shmup spin-off of the Galaxy Fraulein Yuna adventure game series? It looks and sounds super good. It was on the Galaxy Fraulein Collection on PSP, but unfortunately it's quite expensive now. I don't necessarily mind spending that much if the game is amazing, but I wanted to get some opinions from you guys.
It's not a million miles removed from the Star Soldier/Compile style that every other PCE shooter seems to have but now that I'm thinking about it, it might be the best of them--the scoring system's kind of interesting and it looks nice, even considering there's a ton of pre-rendered sprites. It was made by the same team that made Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder and it doesn't have anything to do with the Fraulein games besides them both having the same character designer, and I wouldn't be shocked if this was an original game that had his designs crammed in after the fact.

That said, if it's still as expensive as it used to be, I definitely wouldn't recommend buying it at those prices, especially not nowadays when the PCE market is flooded with bootlegs. My memory of those PCE PSP collections is that they're incredibly basic emulated ROM packages so I wouldn't recommend those, either.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
I definitely haven't heard anything about any Raiden games coming to Switch.
Yeah, my apologies everyone. I know I shouldn't have taken the Wiki as any kind of gospel (or even rumours) but there's literally nothing anywhere on the internet about it. Shit :/

Edit: All updates were done about a week ago from an Indonesian IP address. So probably not any kind of authority (unless someone's seen an ESRB rating or something).
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,473
Yeah, my apologies everyone. I know I shouldn't have taken the Wiki as any kind of gospel (or even rumours) but there's literally nothing anywhere on the internet about it. Shit :/
It's all good, don't worry about it.

There are a lot of older shooters available via Arcade Archives, most of which are simpler dodge-and-shoot games but a lot of them have experimental gimmicks to them that you won't see in danmaku-era games.

If you wait a few weeks you'll be able to grab Image Fight, which is almost literally what you're after: it's a vertical game by the developers of R-Type and it has a very similar methodical, memorization-heavy style of gameplay.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,202
If you wait a few weeks you'll be able to grab Image Fight, which is almost literally what you're after: it's a vertical game by the developers of R-Type and it has a very similar methodical, memorization-heavy style of gameplay.
Ohhh shit. When I was thinking of exceptions to my generalization above Image Fight was the big one. I didn't realize it was coming to Arcade Archives, that's awesome. Brutal game, though, if I remember right!
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
If you wait a few weeks you'll be able to grab Image Fight, which is almost literally what you're after: it's a vertical game by the developers of R-Type and it has a very similar methodical, memorization-heavy style of gameplay.
In my brief search earlier, I think someone on system11 forums mentioned Image Fight, didn't realise I'll be able to play it so soon! Sweet.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,473
Ohhh shit. When I was thinking of exceptions to my generalization above Image Fight was the big one. I didn't realize it was coming to Arcade Archives, that's awesome. Brutal game, though, if I remember right!
Yeah, Hamster announced it on their schedule a little while ago--if all goes to plan it'll be Athena this week, Ikari Warriors next week, Donkey Kong Jr. the week after and then Image Fight.

Image Fight's one of those games where you pretty much have to map out the entire game down to option positions and so on, not just to survive but because there's a point where the game will dump you into a stupidly hard stage if you haven't stayed above a certain destruction percentage across all the previous stages.

Oddly enough, most of the bosses are complete pushovers, they either have really obvious safe spots or you ca just go right up to them and kill them before they can even attack.

Treasure's shooters, RS in particular, definitely take as much from Image Fight as anything else--the idea of the entire game being one big system that has to be solved without a ton of room for ad-lib is definitely an Image Fight thing.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,221
United States
Yeah, Hamster announced it on their schedule a little while ago--if all goes to plan it'll be Athena this week, Ikari Warriors next week, Donkey Kong Jr. the week after and then Image Fight.

Image Fight's one of those games where you pretty much have to map out the entire game down to option positions and so on, not just to survive but because there's a point where the game will dump you into a stupidly hard stage if you haven't stayed above a certain destruction percentage across all the previous stages.

Oddly enough, most of the bosses are complete pushovers, they either have really obvious safe spots or you ca just go right up to them and kill them before they can even attack.


Treasure's shooters, RS in particular, definitely take as much from Image Fight as anything else--the idea of the entire game being one big system that has to be solved without a ton of room for ad-lib is definitely an Image Fight thing.
Are you sure you're not just posting about R-Type?
 
Oct 25, 2017
416
Ahh just the wikipedia thing, well hopefully Raiden IV for Switch is true and it leads to maybe some modern ports of the original Raiden games on a current console.
 
Nov 2, 2017
394
I'd love a shooter that isn't bullet hell, TBH. Haven't done any research at all so I'm probably wrong, but everything seems to be about dodging bullets and not much else. Something with the intensity of something like R-Type, but vertical (and with environmental objects, of course), would be perfect.

Fake edit: Oh, Raiden IV is coming to Switch. Sweet.
For me, the original Gunbird is a great example of a vertical shooter that's simple and yet provides a lot of entertainment. Just play it for a 1CC and you'll get a long time out of it. Each character gives it... character!
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,492
I'm working on a PC build to squish into one of my HD candy cabs for MAGFest. Anyone have a list of PC shmups that I should be picking up for it? Screen will be 16:9 oriented normally, but is large enough that just about any sort of content should be fine on it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,221
United States
I'm working on a PC build to squish into one of my HD candy cabs for MAGFest. Anyone have a list of PC shmups that I should be picking up for it? Screen will be 16:9 oriented normally, but is large enough that just about any sort of content should be fine on it.
Revolver 360 Reactor is a MUST. Makes a fantastic first impression.

Reminds me a ton of Sin & Punishment 2 despite being a 2D game.
 
Jan 30, 2018
2,814
I definitely haven't heard anything about any Raiden games coming to Switch.



It's not a million miles removed from the Star Soldier/Compile style that every other PCE shooter seems to have but now that I'm thinking about it, it might be the best of them--the scoring system's kind of interesting and it looks nice, even considering there's a ton of pre-rendered sprites. It was made by the same team that made Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder and it doesn't have anything to do with the Fraulein games besides them both having the same character designer, and I wouldn't be shocked if this was an original game that had his designs crammed in after the fact.

That said, if it's still as expensive as it used to be, I definitely wouldn't recommend buying it at those prices, especially not nowadays when the PCE market is flooded with bootlegs. My memory of those PCE PSP collections is that they're incredibly basic emulated ROM packages so I wouldn't recommend those, either.
Thanks for your post. I'm still undecided! It just looks and sounds really cool. I love Compile shmups...I've been eyeing a few of those PCE PSP collections so it's disappointing to hear that they're barebones. The Soldier collection is definitely up my alley. The four Konami PSP shmup collections were pretty great in comparison, but not perfect.
Yeah, Hamster announced it on their schedule a little while ago--if all goes to plan it'll be Athena this week, Ikari Warriors next week, Donkey Kong Jr. the week after and then Image Fight.

Image Fight's one of those games where you pretty much have to map out the entire game down to option positions and so on, not just to survive but because there's a point where the game will dump you into a stupidly hard stage if you haven't stayed above a certain destruction percentage across all the previous stages.

Oddly enough, most of the bosses are complete pushovers, they either have really obvious safe spots or you ca just go right up to them and kill them before they can even attack.

Treasure's shooters, RS in particular, definitely take as much from Image Fight as anything else--the idea of the entire game being one big system that has to be solved without a ton of room for ad-lib is definitely an Image Fight thing.
I have Image Fight on my list of shmups to play someday so I'm really glad to hear it's coming to Switch. Am I right in remembering though that Image Fight II is more well-liked?
 
Apr 18, 2018
113
I'm working on a PC build to squish into one of my HD candy cabs for MAGFest. Anyone have a list of PC shmups that I should be picking up for it?
I'd go with

Blue Revolver
Exceed 3rd
ZeroRanger
The Hurricane of The Varstray
Neko Navy

If you're after more

Eschatos
Black Bird
Steel Vampire
Battle Traverse
Ten and Till
Bullet Soul: Infinite Burst
Mecha Ritz: Steel Rondo
Crimzon Clover
Danmaku Unlimited 2
Space Moth DX
Jet Buster

if you're after more just say!
 
Jan 27, 2018
2,378
So, Jets and Guns 2 has come out in early access - https://store.steampowered.com/app/830820/JetsnGuns_2/

I always avoided the first in sales as it looked a bit too euroshmupy and unreadable.

Should I be skipping it?
Anyone here rate the first one?
The first entry is one of the worst games ever made in the genre, a game that every aspiring designer should study to see the things than you can never do in a shmup.

All of that said, Europe has an amazing tradition of shmups, with some of the best designers to grace the genre.

The great problem is that the Amiga 500 scene was plagued with these type of bad shooting games whose only value was the impressive use of the pixel art, specially in Germany.

But to reduce the European scene to this, is to forget the amazing Commodore 64 scene, or the works of creators such as Jeff Minter, who were designing some of the best shooting games in the 80s. Continuing a tradition of TRUE score attack shmups, in an age in which in Japan, these shmups focused in complex scoring systems with infinite layouts were supplanted by games based in memorization and with a fixed length.

I think that one of the pending things of the shmup internet communities, is to put value on a western tradition starting with the seminal 'Robotron 2084'.

And the toxic label that we have created with euroshmup, don't help to mitigate this.

For example, my favorite shmup in this 2018 has been created in Europe, 'Debris Infinity' for Nintendo Switch.

And I haven't seen any shmup community talking about this game, the same can be said of the rest of shooting games coming from this western tradition in the last years, with some rare exceptions such as 'Nex Machina'.

And don't get me wrong, it's also cool to have western developers in the last years, imitating in a perfect way these Japanese games of the late 80s and early 90s, with landmarks as the recent 'ZeroRanger'.

But sometimes I miss more diversity in these communities, and less assumptions and cliches.

There are a lot of examples of these assumptions and cliches. Like for example, that arcade games are about doing 1CC runs. And this was truth starting in the second half of the 80s. But in my opinion, this is not what defines an arcade game, but it's the scoring mechanics.

And we have with 'Donkey Kong' a brilliant example of a pure arcade game and one of the most influential titles in video game history, still played to this day in a competitive way. And that it's a game that can't be completed, none a 1CC run is the main objective. It's a game about pushing your limits to increase your score, without an ending.

It's only an example.

To talk of how wonderful were the Capcom shmups designed by Yoshiki Okamoto, such as 'SonSon' and 'Gunsmoke' is other example. Games that were heavily influenced by a western tradition.

None other Japanese designer was able to understand so well the basis of an arcade game.

But we can still read a lot of commentaries underplaying Capcom early shmups, even among shmup fans.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,215
R-Type Dimensions got a patch on Switch, now leaderboards are properly split between R-Type and R-Type II both all have Infinity mode and Classic mode leaderboards.
 
Apr 18, 2018
113
The first entry is one of the worst games ever made in the genre, a game that every aspiring designer should study to see the things than you can never do in a shmup.
Thanks, man. It's weird how it's so popular.

I agree, it's a shame "euroshmup" has become such a pejorative term because some euroshmups are good, but like you say, it's now common shorthand for bad design. Maybe I should have just said "crap" instead.
 
Jan 27, 2018
2,378
Thanks, man. It's weird how it's so popular.

I agree, it's a shame "euroshmup" has become such a pejorative term because some euroshmups are good, but like you say, it's now common shorthand for bad design. Maybe I should have just said "crap" instead.
When the first 'Jets'n'Guns' was released in Steam, it was a completely different era.

Steam was still an ecosystem for a traditional PC audience, the console audience and the flood of Japanese games, including shmups, came years after this.

Back in the release day, not even 'Crimzon Clover' was in Steam. And 'Crimzon Clover' was the first Steam shooting release really appealing to a traditional shump crowd.

Even more, I remember that in these "obscure years" for PC gaming, a great part of the most hardcore and traditional shmup user base was still rejecting not only to play shumps in PC, but they were also against digital distribution. You know, the "physical collectors" mentality.

It's fun to see how much the market has changed in only 5 years.

Now, if a shmup is only released in consoles and not in Steam, a lot of the shmup user base that has embraced Steam as their main system for shooting games, will feel pissed off if an important game skips Steam.

In this context, without hardcore shmup players in Steam, this explains why 'Jets'n'Guns' was so popular back in the day, obtaining good reviews.
 
Apr 18, 2018
113
It also seems like what your regular, common or garden gamer wants from their shooting games is entirely at odds with what fully paid up fans of the genre want.

Jets n guns 2 has only been in early access for 3 days and already has 96 reviews with only 3 of them being negative.

I've seen excellent games on steam that wouldn't get that sort of response even after being on sale for a few years, never mind in the first 3 days.
 
Jan 30, 2018
2,814
I'm torn on getting Ketsui on PS4. I'm not a Cave fan at all -- the only Cave game I've loved is Dangun Feveron (which I know is the game people who don't like Cave games like) but I know that lots of people consider Ketsui the best Cave game if not the best shmup ever. So maybe I should give it a shot. I also do want to support M2's amazing Shottriggers line.
 
Oct 30, 2017
930
Random thought but I wish Arika would have been able to complete their attempted Ketsui port on PS2 back in the day. 'Luda and DOJ look so good 240p and I'm not made of money so I'm not at the PCB stage yet.
 
Jan 19, 2018
158
It also seems like what your regular, common or garden gamer wants from their shooting games is entirely at odds with what fully paid up fans of the genre want.

Jets n guns 2 has only been in early access for 3 days and already has 96 reviews with only 3 of them being negative.

I've seen excellent games on steam that wouldn't get that sort of response even after being on sale for a few years, never mind in the first 3 days.
I've kind of considered it a combination of the "euroshmup" and older PC shmups, they have a similar style personally, vs what might be considered more japanese arcade/console style ones. There's a market for the different styles and presumably most of the Steam users are more familiar with and like the former rather than latter.

Although to be fair, yeah it's probably also more (at least initially) preferable to the normal gamers that aren't super indoctrinated to shmups and are looking for different qualities. Like weapon upgrades and all that jazz. Not a fan myself but I can understand the want for it.
I'm torn on getting Ketsui on PS4. I'm not a Cave fan at all -- the only Cave game I've loved is Dangun Feveron (which I know is the game people who don't like Cave games like) but I know that lots of people consider Ketsui the best Cave game if not the best shmup ever. So maybe I should give it a shot. I also do want to support M2's amazing Shottriggers line.
Dangun was my first PCB! Purely by luck, went over to a guy's place to buy a cab, but the guy also had Dangun running in it so made an offer to buy that on the spot too. Love how hectic and fast it feels to play.

...which gets me to Ketsui. I remember way back before everyone played it there were only a few impressions. Including this goddamn one (which landed Brandon Sheffield on my reviewer shit list). Anyway there was a post or something where someone compared the pacing to Dangun, which is what ultimately sold me on it. Luckily this was before the PCB pricing went all crazy.

Hard to explain but one aspect kinda like Dangun, is that once you get into the scoring there's a certain chaotic nature of how you end up playing to maximize your score. Can't guarantee you'll like it but it deserves a fair shake if you like Dangun. It plays pretty fast and the bullet patterns aren't too crazy density wise, I think it's a nice balance of neat patterns and movement without getting too overwhelming.
 
Jan 30, 2018
2,814
I've kind of considered it a combination of the "euroshmup" and older PC shmups, they have a similar style personally, vs what might be considered more japanese arcade/console style ones. There's a market for the different styles and presumably most of the Steam users are more familiar with and like the former rather than latter.

Although to be fair, yeah it's probably also more (at least initially) preferable to the normal gamers that aren't super indoctrinated to shmups and are looking for different qualities. Like weapon upgrades and all that jazz. Not a fan myself but I can understand the want for it.

Dangun was my first PCB! Purely by luck, went over to a guy's place to buy a cab, but the guy also had Dangun running in it so made an offer to buy that on the spot too. Love how hectic and fast it feels to play.

...which gets me to Ketsui. I remember way back before everyone played it there were only a few impressions. Including this goddamn one (which landed Brandon Sheffield on my reviewer shit list). Anyway there was a post or something where someone compared the pacing to Dangun, which is what ultimately sold me on it. Luckily this was before the PCB pricing went all crazy.

Hard to explain but one aspect kinda like Dangun, is that once you get into the scoring there's a certain chaotic nature of how you end up playing to maximize your score. Can't guarantee you'll like it but it deserves a fair shake if you like Dangun. It plays pretty fast and the bullet patterns aren't too crazy density wise, I think it's a nice balance of neat patterns and movement without getting too overwhelming.
Thanks for this. I'll probably give it a try.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,096
Ended up ordering a new copy of Ketsui + art book from a US eBay seller for $67.99 and free shipping, not bad.

I also just placed an order for the Flip Grip, I just hope I can get it before I leave for a trip on Dec 28th because after placing the order I got a message from Fangamer stating “Our mailroom is slammed with holiday traffic, so it may take a week or more to get your order in the mail.” I gots ta have dat Flip Grip during my flight! >___<
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,693
It's a shmup-kinda xmas, finally reinforced my PSX collection with some gems and lucky finds:

In the Hunt was 30$, Thunderforce 5 about 35$, Raiden DX was 40$ as was Terradiver, rest were about 10$ or so.

And the flipgrip arrived and now my Switch is finished :D
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,404
It's a shmup-kinda xmas, finally reinforced my PSX collection with some gems and lucky finds:

In the Hunt was 30$, Thunderforce 5 about 35$, Raiden DX was 40$ as was Terradiver, rest were about 10$ or so.

And the flipgrip arrived and now my Switch is finished :D
Ugh, I need a d-pad joycon :/ When I get the money, I'll either get an extra joycon and do the mod, or just get the Nintendo-authorised retail one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,496
I got an email from Amazon Japan about my Ketsui order, and with a ink to a PDF guide. My Google Translate is rusty so I am uncertain exactly why I’m receiving this.