Shmups (Shoot 'Em Ups) |OT| THE FULL EXTENT OF THE JAM

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,699
I'm wayyyy lttp here, but I finally went ahead and picked up Layer Section. I don't know why, but I wasn't expecting much. Maybe because the price is still downright reasonable compared to other Saturn STGs?

The game isn't super deep, but it's a really fun kinetic, old-school feeling STG with lots of modern flair. The 3D mechanic works well, but outside of bosses doesn't seem to be particularly game changing. The graphics are seriously impressive though. All of the 3D layers are handled so meticulously. I'm used to games in the genre having their most visually impressive levels first, but the impressive details just keep coming as the game progresses. I love the small details like the ships changing shadow against the clouds as it plummets towards earth, or the floating islands at different heights. The game certainly seems on the easier end of the spectrum, but still is a decent challenge. So far I haven't been able to make it past the stage 6 boss, but I feel like I'll make it to the final level before long.

There's gonna be a Battle Garegga demonstration at Kemonomichi 3.
This is gonna be hype.


Also:
Nice!
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,697
I'm wayyyy lttp here, but I finally went ahead and picked up Layer Section.
Good get, just don't bother with Layer Section 2 on Saturn as the port's awful, you'll want Raystorm on PS instead. There's also a third game, Raycrisis, that's available for PS. There are also surprisingly solid ports of all three games on smartphones with controller support, but the Raycrisis port is a direct port of the arcade game whereas the PS version is more of a remix, so one doesn't substitute the other.

For another sorta-similar game for Saturn, I'd recommend Soukyugurentai--you want the version with the white border around the cover image, as it's a reissue with some bug fixes that are particularly important if you're playing on a non-Japanese system.
 
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sixteen-bit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,236
Good get, just don't bother with Layer Section 2 on Saturn as the port's awful, you'll want Rayforce on PS instead. There's also a third game, Raycrisis, that's available for PS. There are also surprisingly solid ports of all three games on smartphones with controller support, but the Raycrisis port is a direct port of the arcade game whereas the PS version is more of a remix, so one doesn't substitute the other.

For another sorta-similar game for Saturn, I'd recommend Soukyugurentai--you want the version with the white border around the cover image, as it's a reissue with some bug fixes that are particularly important if you're playing on a non-Japanese system.
Small correction; Rayforce is just another name for Layer Section 1 / Galactic Attack. You probably meant Raystorm :)
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,699
Good get, just don't bother with Layer Section 2 on Saturn as the port's awful, you'll want Raystorm on PS instead. There's also a third game, Raycrisis, that's available for PS. There are also surprisingly solid ports of all three games on smartphones with controller support, but the Raycrisis port is a direct port of the arcade game whereas the PS version is more of a remix, so one doesn't substitute the other.

For another sorta-similar game for Saturn, I'd recommend Soukyugurentai--you want the version with the white border around the cover image, as it's a reissue with some bug fixes that are particularly important if you're playing on a non-Japanese system.
Good to know, the PS1 double pack of the sequels is on the way! Always nice to find some quality retro STGs in the realm of affordability.

Oops, yeah. I corrected it in my head, I swear.

If you want an indie game in that vein, I'd recommend Kamui: https://store.steampowered.com/app/283820/KAMUI/

Nice, that lightning attack looks super fun
 

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Yaaaas! Got my DoDonPachi 1cc. Been playing it for the reddit highscore competition. I know it's no great shakes in terms of scoring but I'm chuffed and like Kevin Rowland I'm telling anyone who'll listen!


Dezatopia, Route A, cleared.
Man, that final boss can be brutal if you crank the rank too high! I was working through the routes in order, I've done "L" but it was starting to feel a bit repetitive so I took a break.
Rather than lots of routes with repeated levels, I'd much rather everything was spread less thinly and we had 6 or so routes that were very different from each other and very unique and memorable. Excellent game though. I will be back. I probably just got excited and hammered it a bit too hard at launch.

Saw this on Hey's twitter

I want to create a simple STG like Mecaritz again ... I feel that there is still room for pursuit in that style of STG.
Can't wait to see what he comes up with next! Amazing game.

Mecha Ritz currently half price for anyone who hasn't dived in yet - https://store.steampowered.com/app/463070/Mecha_Ritz_Steel_Rondo/
 

Rayge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,089
Finally about to sit down with Rolling Gunner Overpower to see what it's about. It's cool that you can switch between the original and the new version in the menu. When I first started the game I though I screwed something up since Overpower wasn't showing up. Didn't know this was a thing you changed in the menus. The new soundtrack sounds better than the original in my opinion.

 

ChryZ

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,973
Man, that final boss can be brutal if you crank the rank too high!
No kidding, cleared B yesterday. The more I played, the worst I did. Being super dense, it took me way too long to figure out why. The game is like: "You're doing well, buddy. Let me crank the rank and serve you a nice slice of humble pie." Shell shocked me: "What now?"
 

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Oh yeah, I noticed that. The game auto-adjusts the starting rank based on how well you played last time, so you have to keep an eye on that and dial it back down to 100. It's only the final boss that seems to get silly, do you find? but yeah, wait until you're more confident fighting her before even considering pushing up the start rank, I'd say. That's been my experience, anyway.
I did notice the starting rank creeping up but I got cocky and thought "I can handle this". The rest of the game is very manageable at the rank I was reaching, but I'd get to the final boss and she'd just paste me!

 

ChryZ

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,973
Yeah, I can deal with Momoko up to 299, beyond that it gets hairy even when packing massive heat. I can't even imagine the screen at 999, prolly only the invincible frames of the shop and bomb are safe :S

Clear C on my first try with sensible start ranking. What a delightful gem. Picked up Mecha Ritz too, while at it.
 

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Oh, you're in for a treat, mecha ritz is better, if anything!
There's a little trick you can do to milk the final pattern of the final boss. Stay to the side and shoot the little orbs that go around her for as long as you can before killing her - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_KzK0AjBOk&t=26m10s

I was playing it for a scoring competition on reddit and even though I got much better at the game, I never did manage to beat that score I got early on because since I wasn't as good the rank didn't get too high and I got to the final boss with a lot of resources and was able to milk her for lots of point.

Would be nice if that exploit got patched. It's the only thing that lets the game down in my view, but you can play without doing it, of course.

You have to set up separate joytokey autofire profiles for each ship since the timings are all different, that can be a pain. 7 times a second seemed to be perfect for the red ship which is the one I really like, but that's when I was using joytokey at normal processing speed, I didn't know about the x16 thing in the settings which cuts down on input lag.
It's fast enough without doing that, so if you can't get the timing right at that speed, just run joytokey at normal speed and go with that, setting a button on your stick to push the "z" key 7 times a second, and then in game set fire for a different button which you'll then use for focus shot.

Amazing game. I love the madness of Dezatopia but there's something more pure about mecha ritz that just tips it for me.

Best rank I've chinned the deza boss at was 481
There's your score to beat, if you haven't done so already! 6,693,944
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,699
Do we know (or have any rumors/reason to believe) if any more Cave games are going to get ported, by M2 our others? Thinking about picking up some of their PS2 games, but don’t want to regret spending all that cash if better versions come out...
 

Rayge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,089

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Yes! Been wanting to play ginga force for the longest time. Great to see Natsuki coming over to PC too. Amazing news!
 

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
There was a twitter poll conducted recently where Japanese folk voted on their favourite shmups of the decade, and it was interesting to see the disparity in taste between the east and west there when it came to those more modern games, comparing the results alongside the recent poll on the shmups forum.



It filled my heart with joy to see neko navy at number 2, and as much as I enjoyed Zeroranger, I did think at the time that Blue Revolver was much more deserving of all the praise it was receiving, though I think it's safe to say that's totally subjective. I like zeroranger for very different reasons, they're very different games, regardless of them both being in the same genre.

1. Eschatos
2. Neko Navy
3. Crimson Clover
4. Strania
5. DDPSDOJ
6. Dariusburst CS
7. Blue Revolver
8. Graze Counter
9. Aka to Blue
10. Dariusburst AC

Dezatopia switch release is on the horizon by the looks of it. There's a page up on the japanese eshop saying 19th of march. I'm assuming it's a concurrent worldwide release but the other store pages aren't up yet.

Concerning that T3-Kamui garegga run, I'm posting this for posterity just in case we never see the likes again :lol:



Don't take this as a recommendation, but


Looks promising. I saw it while browsing steams upcoming games, the screenshots didn't fill me with optimism, but I thought I'd better check just to make sure and, watching the video, it looks canny good! I liked those swirly patterns towards the end and it has proximity scoring which is always fun.
Could go either way, but worth keeping an eye on, I'd say. No idea when it's coming out, I think the date was just a placeholder.
 

Rayge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,089
It filled my heart with joy to see neko navy at number 2, and as much as I enjoyed Zeroranger, I did think at the time that Blue Revolver was much more deserving of all the praise it was receiving, though I think it's safe to say that's totally subjective. I like zeroranger for very different reasons, they're very different games, regardless of them both being in the same genre.

1. Eschatos
2. Neko Navy
3. Crimson Clover
4. Strania
5. DDPSDOJ
6. Dariusburst CS
7. Blue Revolver
8. Graze Counter
9. Aka to Blue
10. Dariusburst AC
The only thing wrong with that list to me is that ZeroRanger isn't on there. I've played and enjoyed every single one of those games. I share the sentiment about Blue Revolver. I hope the developer is able to release their update for the game one day. I wish the game sold better for them.

I'm glad to see a list that has recent shmups in the top 10. Usually people can't move past the classics.
 

SoH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,369
I'm as big of a DDP fanboy as they come and DFK absolutely deserves to be dropped from the list in favor of some of the stuff that has come out in the past decade. Happy to see ZeroRanger up there.
 

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
The only thing wrong with that list to me is that ZeroRanger isn't on there.
It just missed out on the top ten, coming in at number 11. Black bird came just under it at number 12, which I'd put higher. Considering graze counter made the list (I mean, it's good, but come on), I can only assume that Zeroranger didn't make as much of a splash over there.
Yeah, I totally agree, there is definitely a bias against modern indie games on the shmups forum.
There does seem to be a weird fetishising of unavailability too.
Unobtainable games that never got a modern port, if emulation has never really done them justice, they seem to steadily creep up in favour over time.
 
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clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Windows 10 is fine. People expecting perfect ports of older games are the problem.

If I were them I'd advertise the products as their own thing and not have them be "perfect" ports. I swear man. The STG community is filled with so many boomers who lose their minds over things that it's infuriating. Out of all the genres in existence, the old school shoot'em up community is THE most picky and most vitriolic group out of all of them. If one moment of slowdown is out of place on one of these games it's time to bring out the pitchforks and torches. It's so ridiculous.

It's gotten to the point that I don't even give a crap about releases of older games because either it is only released on one platform or they get review bombed over not being arcade perfect.

I'm so glad that there are actual developers out there making actual NEW shmups that can't be compared to older versions. What's sad about it is that there are so many grumpy, shaking fists at cloud boomers in the genre that they don't give these new games a chance because they weren't released in arcades or some other stupid bullshit.
Just as an aside, I hadn't logged in for a while and didn't want to bump the thread but you were totally right here. I've since upgraded to windows 10 since support for 7 was being dropped and it's been totally painless. I've done some tweaking, but I must have bought into all the horror stories. I have zero complaints.

and I agree with your stance on people wanting 100% accurate slowdown in arcade ports. Just treat it as a separate game if you must, so long as the game runs consistently across all PC's, it isn't an issue.
 

Rayge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,089
Just as an aside, I hadn't logged in for a while and didn't want to bump the thread but you were totally right here. I've since upgraded to windows 10 since support for 7 was being dropped and it's been totally painless. I've done some tweaking, but I must have bought into all the horror stories. I have zero complaints.

and I agree with your stance on people wanting 100% accurate slowdown in arcade ports. Just treat it as a separate game if you must, so long as the game runs consistently across all PC's, it isn't an issue.
Hmmm I must have been mad at the world that day. I could have worded that with a little more composure and tact. But I still stand by the message. I understand wanting things to be the same across the board for competitive reasons. But the difficulty of getting these older games to run exactly like they did on the old hardware is daunting. It would be better if they marketed these games as newer revisions. People who want the arcade experience should just invest in the arcade experience.

I really want to see the genre thrive and have it stop living off their past laurels. These past few years have produced some great additions to the genre from talented developers. I just wish they'd get more notoriety. Just this year we've got Dezatopia, Rolling Gunner Overpower and will have Natuski Chronicles getting a wider release. While Ginga Force isn't brand new I still see it as part of the new wave of STGs. I can't wait to check those out.
 
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clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Haha. Mate, I have had many of those days recently.
It was totally fair. I'd bought into a load of disinformation, and if you're genuinely upset about your tone, at least take comfort in the fact that you weren't wrong, at least from where I'm standing.

I've seen people saying "Oh my god, the cave ports on steam are absolutely worthless. Unplayable. Do not buy them until they're fixed" when what they really mean is "the slowdown in one particular mode is a bit wonky", there's a total loss of perspective there.

I understand that if you're playing these games at the highest level competitively, you'd want the game to be totally interchangeable with the pcb, but you have to realise at that point that you're 0.1% of the audience and you have to couch your criticisms with that caveat.

edit: yeah, agreed, the indie/doujin scene is the future of the genre. The genre is alive and well, modern games are being released that give a lot of these old classics a fair run for their money. A good game is timeless and that includes the games that were released yesterday.
 
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Rayge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,089
Haha. Mate, I have had many of those days recently.
It was totally fair. I'd bought into a load of disinformation, and if you're genuinely upset about your tone, at least take comfort in the fact that you weren't wrong, at least from where I'm standing.

I've seen people saying "Oh my god, the cave ports on steam are absolutely worthless. Unplayable. Do not buy them until they're fixed" when what they really mean is "the slowdown in one particular mode is a bit wonky", there's a total loss of perspective there.

I understand that if you're playing these games at the highest level competitively, you'd want the game to be totally interchangeable with the pcb, but you have to realise at that point that you're 0.1% of the audience and you have to couch your criticisms with that caveat.
Yeah. The great thing is that the Cave ports reviewed really well with the general public. But I guess they weren't profitable enough for CAVE and Degica to continue releasing them on the platform.

I'm not against older STGs. I always get excited about older games getting ports and enjoy supporting the devs who make it happen. And for the most part, I think the majority of people are understanding of not having and arcade perfect representation. Also, some people don't care or don't know, because they've never played the arcade versions. So the games still tend to be review favorably.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,697
Blue Revolver was made in collaboration with Japanese composers, VAs, etc and the artist already have a modest Japanese following, so that game was already rooted in the consciousness of Japanese players before it came out and helped it find an audience pretty quickly.

By comparison, ZeroRanger pretty much just showed up without being on many peoples' radars outside of the absolute hardcore players, and even now it hasn't been translated into Japanese.

Given those factors, it's not hard to see why there might be such a disparity between two games of arguably equivalent quality.
 

clippa

Member
Apr 18, 2018
159
Thanks for the info, that makes a lot of sense.

I remember Terra Feminarum coming out around the same time, a tiny little finnish shmup explosion!

I wondered if it was down to a lot of europeans digging the more oldschool style, and blue revolver being a lot more of a quick turnaround scoring loop bullet hell straight off the bat.
Both great games, but I think they excel in completely different ways. I can say that I prefer Blue Revolver, but you're right, I can't say that one is objectively better than the other.

I'm not against older STGs
Oh god, yeah, you don't have to pick a team. I played rolling gunner and espgaluda today and enjoyed both equally. I can't even decide if I'm a Timhead or a Gregghead!
 
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cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Coral Springs, FL

Rayge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,089
I'm going to try out Dezatopia on an arcade stick this weekend. I've been playing on controller, but I feel the 4 guns can be managed better if I used my fingers and not my thumb.