Now hold on, let's hear them out
oh
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Should The United States Break Up?
- Thread starter Archmage
- Start date
Now hold on, let's hear them out
oh
No, it wouldn't work. Like people are saying, you've got too many people living in rural vs urban areas that would not go along with this.
My state is super blue, but I live in a town dominated by republicans. Can't imagine they're just going to up and leave to a new country because this new one will be more "progressive".
What you need is a stronger central power setting the rules for all states. As it is currently, you get too much "states rights", and an federal government showing that its laws mean nothing. Take weed as an example. I want it to be legal in all states, but the current reality is that it's illegal at the federal level. So what does the government do? Nothing. When Trump got in, Jeff Sessions was all about how he was going to crack down on states violating federal laws on marijuana I.E. Colorado. Politically though, that would have been incredibly unpopular across the US because again, "states rights", and it's popular in both blue and purple states. So you can't enforce the law, and you can't change the law due to deadlock in congress....soooo that kind of shows the federal government's ass here. That one example proved to me that it's basically a free for all in terms of what states want to do. I can't see it getting any better unless the Senate gets re-apportioned based on population. Other than that, you will continue to have one half of the country gridlocking the other half like we've seen since we've for over 10 years now.
My state is super blue, but I live in a town dominated by republicans. Can't imagine they're just going to up and leave to a new country because this new one will be more "progressive".
What you need is a stronger central power setting the rules for all states. As it is currently, you get too much "states rights", and an federal government showing that its laws mean nothing. Take weed as an example. I want it to be legal in all states, but the current reality is that it's illegal at the federal level. So what does the government do? Nothing. When Trump got in, Jeff Sessions was all about how he was going to crack down on states violating federal laws on marijuana I.E. Colorado. Politically though, that would have been incredibly unpopular across the US because again, "states rights", and it's popular in both blue and purple states. So you can't enforce the law, and you can't change the law due to deadlock in congress....soooo that kind of shows the federal government's ass here. That one example proved to me that it's basically a free for all in terms of what states want to do. I can't see it getting any better unless the Senate gets re-apportioned based on population. Other than that, you will continue to have one half of the country gridlocking the other half like we've seen since we've for over 10 years now.
The right wingers may fantasize about it, but the leadership would never do it, as without the money of the blue metropolitan states to prop them up, they would be reduced to failed, third world states in a hurry.
The problem with this though is that it's actually possible for people to feel represented in their states. I'm in Massachusetts, which has its problems for sure, but it actually is pretty close politically to my beliefs and for better/worse I feel insulated from a lot of the US's big issues since guns are harder to get here, abortion rights are entrenched, etc.
If we have to throw out what rights I have here and determine a shared vision for 330m people then there's no way I'm not worse off
I just don't see how we end up with 2 or 3 countries not run by the wealthy and/or military in a form of government of their choosing or what will assure that there won't be a power grab shortly after. I agree that we are clearly in the latter stages of our cycle before collapse (not likely to happen in our lifetime).
I understand why you want to fracture the states.
But we have a unique union that depends on each other. Our power grid is interconnected. How we get our food is interconnected. How we interact with the other foreign governments and corporations is interconnected. All of this would change if we were no longer a union.
Once we break apart, we have less reason to be cordial with each other. Infighting starts between the countries of Wisconsin and Minnesota. They set up tariffs on goods - no more cheese or potatoes for you, MN! Good luck getting animal feed and sugar beets, WI.
Then the shit starts to get real. Nevada depends on neighboring states for their goods. What leverage do they have to keep in good graces with California and Idaho? What is keeping California from invading Nevada, and expanding its territory?
What about the states that are now countries that have nuclear capabilities?
Texas is big and bad... until they no longer have the backing of the United States military. Now they are another country that has been... less than kind to their neighbor, Mexico. What's stopping Mexico from attacking Texas? Would neighboring countries Louisiana and New Mexico even bother sending support?
Its an interesting ''what if", but that would be devastating if America was to no longer be a union of states.
But we have a unique union that depends on each other. Our power grid is interconnected. How we get our food is interconnected. How we interact with the other foreign governments and corporations is interconnected. All of this would change if we were no longer a union.
Once we break apart, we have less reason to be cordial with each other. Infighting starts between the countries of Wisconsin and Minnesota. They set up tariffs on goods - no more cheese or potatoes for you, MN! Good luck getting animal feed and sugar beets, WI.
Then the shit starts to get real. Nevada depends on neighboring states for their goods. What leverage do they have to keep in good graces with California and Idaho? What is keeping California from invading Nevada, and expanding its territory?
What about the states that are now countries that have nuclear capabilities?
Texas is big and bad... until they no longer have the backing of the United States military. Now they are another country that has been... less than kind to their neighbor, Mexico. What's stopping Mexico from attacking Texas? Would neighboring countries Louisiana and New Mexico even bother sending support?
Its an interesting ''what if", but that would be devastating if America was to no longer be a union of states.
We join with them and start a new state New Kentucky or North Kentucky
Threads like this prove to me how disconnected from reality video game message boards are. It's honestly a good reminder I think.
This wouldn't be like one of those major points outline timelines you see in video game loading screens.
It would be book length and every major event would be more subtle, more transgressive upon reflection.
The actual end of America will be so subtle that everyone will notice it at a different time.
It would be book length and every major event would be more subtle, more transgressive upon reflection.
The actual end of America will be so subtle that everyone will notice it at a different time.
I refuse to let people who have no ability to change where they live suffer. So no. I'll fight.
(if you are asking if different state groupings should go together.)
(if you are asking if different state groupings should go together.)
Is it that they would rather abandon the people who aren't as well-off or that they cannot possibly conceive of how someone cannot be as well-off as they are? "What do you mean some people don't have the money to 'just move?' What did they spend all their money on then???"
honestly, same. shit like this makes me log off, it's good for me.
Red states aren't 100% red and blue states aren't 100% blue. Where do you draw the dividing lines? I'm in a strongly blue county and there were still a few Trump flags in my suburban neighborhood during the election. Do we deport those neighbors after we secede?
The people you disagree with aren't across state lines they're across the street.
The people you disagree with aren't across state lines they're across the street.
At some point yes, the best possible option is to leave if you have that ability, and frankly I despise people that demonize those that do so. I will never, ever fault my trans friends from deciding to say 'nah, fuck this' and leave Texas because it's not their job or responsibility to fix a state that's trying to erase them. Similarly, businesses offering relocation benefits and escape packages for those that don't have the ability or want to flee should absolutely be encouraged.
Not everyone has that option, but access to that option should be expanded for those that need it or want it.
Nah, breaking up the USA isn't implausible at this point. It would be a lot easier to just exterminate the left and it's supporters to establish authoritarian rule. You could keep going like the right is going and let the left keep coming up with ideal strategies that will never work right up until you're loading them into death camps and napalming major blue strong holds. Basically by the time people realize what's going on it would be too late to do anything about it or escape.
Then once you've annihilated certain populations in the country, it'll all calm down and people will attend mandatory Sunday service. Begrudgingly at first.
Way easier than trying to divide this amount of land/people peacefully and you still get to maintain your labor centers.
Then once you've annihilated certain populations in the country, it'll all calm down and people will attend mandatory Sunday service. Begrudgingly at first.
Way easier than trying to divide this amount of land/people peacefully and you still get to maintain your labor centers.
Given they literally say "how much worse could it really get for those people" in this very thread it's very much the former
No one is demonizing anyone with the means to get out of a bad sitution. They're critizing the OP's tone and implementation of the idea.
The South with control of nukes and no real brakes to stop them from going bonkers is a crazy proposition.
With that said - If the Republicans accomplish their Hungarian dreams, I could see them booting out the American west to make retaining control over the rest of the country an easier proposition.
With that said - If the Republicans accomplish their Hungarian dreams, I could see them booting out the American west to make retaining control over the rest of the country an easier proposition.
So out of curiosity, if America breaks up, are all foreign policy deals and agreements with the rest of the World null and void?
After all, there would no longer be a "United States of America", gotta re-negotiate shit all over again.
Or maybe just work with China altogether instead? Those guys seem more reliable and stable.
After all, there would no longer be a "United States of America", gotta re-negotiate shit all over again.
Or maybe just work with China altogether instead? Those guys seem more reliable and stable.
you realize breaking the country in two literally does the exact opposite of giving people opportunities to leave?
No, we need an actual democracy and a political system that doesn't trip over itself trying to uphold bullshit written 250 years ago by a bunch of men with no capacity to comprehend the world we have today.
I don't even know what you're arguing here. Nihilism? It doesn't matter because it's already bad? I can imagine countless ways that fully giving the keys of governance to the authoritarian right to realize whatever sort of country they want would make things immediately horrifically worse for basically anyone that isn't a cis, het, white Christian man, but I guess that's a price worth paying because we're slowly heading in that direction anyway? I don't get it.
Okay? Breaking up the US doesn't solve anything about that though, and really would only just accelerate it.
I'm already exhausted with this thread lol. I think I'm tapping out on this one, enjoy the discourse y'all.
Absolutely. I live here too (over 30 years)-- and it's Hawaii, Seattle, Austin, Denver...just a handful of places. If I cross a border in any direction, I hardly recognize it. Hell, if I cross the 494/694 loop, I barely recognize it.
I would say the political system is the problem. It focuses so much on the president and that everything has to end in a 1 or 0 situation. Either you are democrat or republican (or you don't care at all). Not to mention the fucked up voting system which makes everything even worse. That dosen't reflect what the people actually want and it certainly dosen't represent them. If anything it makes it to easy for one person to gain to much power.
The fact the poll is nearly as equal as it is and yet most of the posts are for the "No" side is telling.
Pure apathy.
There's no good way to do it, it'll hurt more than it helps. I foresee a much more organic change of systems over a much longer time period, though obviously with a great deal of violence and friction along the way.
Pure apathy.
There's no good way to do it, it'll hurt more than it helps. I foresee a much more organic change of systems over a much longer time period, though obviously with a great deal of violence and friction along the way.
One of the big problems about discussing "hyper polarization" is that people think we're talking about a 90/10 split in a state or region. The reality is that when we talk about "landslide victories" in states for the GOP, it's really like 10 percentage points at most. Essentially 35 to 40% of the population of that region is NOT for an authoritarian racist state but we talk about it as if it's a "Red State" or "Red region." While there are a few of those regions/counties in the U.S., for the most part everything is pretty split.
i mean the president actually has way less power than people think and the biggest obstacle to progress right now is the Senate. Maybe don't talk about solutions to this countries problems if you don't really understand how it works in the first place
Exactly this. There are more Republican voters in California than in Texas. There are more Democrats in Texas than in New York. And on down the line.
There are no geographical lines that you could follow to "break up" the US. The only places where you wouldn't be leaving someone behind are podunk towns with a population of, like, 20.
And what do you do with swing states? Do they switch between countries every few years?
Let's just a soft trial run for like a year or two so the GOP states get to see just how poor and useless they are on their own.
I would argue that it's the absolute height of naivety to believe that splitting up the United States into two separate countries will make it easier, or hell even just keep things the same for marginalized communities to escape deeply conservative states for treatment, care, or simply less dangerous communities to be in. We've seen plenty of hot air blown about punishing women for seeking out of state abortion, could you imagine what that would look like if instead of requiring you to drive across state lines, it required you to cross national borders?
Travel visas would absolutely be weaponized as a means of oppression and control - if you really want people to be able to access out of state aid and support, the last thing you ever want to do is turn an interstate travel to inter-country travel.
I feel like its emblematic of our education crises and general lack of critical thinking. The answer to any problem is always one step away. Forget all the intricacies between. Could also be general apathy towards continuing going down the toilet bowl as we clearly are. But that's a different discussion.
I don't know Mexican history enough to answer that. You have Mexico, Black Americans don't have an autonomous land. Every time they want to exercise their right to self determination the US gov interferes.
seriously, people talking about shit they have no idea about.
like Houston is one of the largest cities in the nation, is very blue, but the rest of texas isn't outside of cities. How you going to "split that up into different countries"
I never understand why people think that it's as simple as splitting off like this. The polarization is more marbled than distinct lines. NY is was more conservative than people think. Outside of of NYC NY is more like Kentucky. You can even expand this thinking beyond international borders. Southern Ontario(again outside of Toronto), is much more like conservative America than people like to admit.
They just don't care. All they care about is their own well being.