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Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,496
No, but we should implement a universal livable basic income. Plus guaranteed housing and healthcare.

Let the market assign value for labor, but make sure it's not coercive first.
 

Captjohnboyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
The servers are not working for free. They are working on a commission as a % of products sold w/ a mandated minimum. There is a big difference between the two things.

Switching to salary in lieu of the current model is also not viewed as a net positive by many in the industry because they believe it'll result in a net reduction of their take-home pay (and for many, this likely is true.)

Ah, I had no idea this was a thing, that is very much bullshit.
Lol yeah I thought something was getting lost in translation here. I'm only talking about stage (or as the French pronounce it stah Jay) which used to be confined to mostly kitchens but has moved to front of the house.

Side note: I'm a server now and have been one for half my life and I hate the idea of moving to a salary based system. At least give us the option cause honestly there's no way I'm going to make as much on salary. I'm one of the lucky ones
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Lol yeah I thought something was getting lost in translation here. I'm only talking about stage (or as the French pronounce it stah Jay) which used to be confined to mostly kitchens but has moved to front of the house.

Side note: I'm a server now and have been one for half my life and I hate the idea of moving to a salary based system. At least give us the option cause honestly there's no way I'm going to make as much on salary. I'm one of the lucky ones
It's not really luck. If management could actually redistribute salary budgets (which they can't in the current system because they don't directly control FoH salary costs), cooks would be paid more, servers less.

This would be much more equitable but does result in a loss for servers.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
Working for "college credit" or "Experience" seems like load of bullshit. Why work for free? I think its bullshit all internships should pay. Working 40 hours a week for 15 weeks is not worth 3 college credits or experience that does not matter.

That's a crazy amount of hours. I think internships can be invaluable experience and networking opportunities, but the reasonable college ones should be an amount of hours of work equivalent to the amount of time you'd spend on a 3 hour (or whatever the credit is) course (class time and homework/study time per week), coordinated by the major department who is ensuring placements that give valid experience for their majors and paired with another course with writing assignments or whatever is most appropriate so students have to demonstrate what they've learned.
 

Captjohnboyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
It's not really luck. If management could actually redistribute salary budgets (which they can't in the current system because they don't directly control FoH salary costs), cooks would be paid more, servers less.

This would be much more equitable but does result in a loss for servers.
I meant lucky because I work in a city and more importantly a restaurant that's very busy and has diners that tip well above the average. I fully recognize that the back of the house deserves more money though and I'd be willing to take a cut if it meant they were more fairly compensated
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,860
In the art industry lots of companies try to get students and new grads with unpaid internships for exposure and experience. I've even seen a company write an open letter to students reprimanding them for expecting pay and how it's a privilege to get into the industry and they should be working their way from the bottom up. Pretty disgusting behavior :/
Yeah, it's extremely disheartening to see so many art companies try to pull the "exposure and experience" card.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
That's a crazy amount of hours. I think internships can be invaluable experience and networking opportunities, but the reasonable college ones should be an amount of hours of work equivalent to the amount of time you'd spend on a 3 hour (or whatever the credit is) course (class time and homework/study time per week), coordinated by the major department who is ensuring placements that give valid experience for their majors and paired with another course with writing assignments or whatever is most appropriate so students have to demonstrate what they've learned.

Bingo

The problem is this isnt what they are these days.

That also doesn't mean I don't think internships for college credit can't work without pay per say.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
As someone who has worked for an unpaid internship, no. But there should be heavy restrictions on them, and I'm not sure that it could be regulated to the extent that would make it ok in my book.

Some context. A few winters back, I asked my uncle if there was any way I could learn soldering from him. It was a useful skill and I was wanting to improve my skill base. He said he didn't really have the time to teach me but if I wanted he could talk to his company who could bring me on as an paid intern for a few weeks (the company was doing not so great and couldn't pay me). I agreed and started.

Mostly he just taught me a bunch of useful skills and put me on different tasks that I could take on with what I had learned. I worked ~6 hours a day 5 days a week for about 3-4 weeks, and had a bunch of fun tackling different projects. I got to put it on my resume and it was pretty chill. I wasn't held to anywhere near the standards of other paid employees (I could leave early or take a day off if I had so wanted, for instance) but I worked really hard anyhow cause it was so fun. I ended up getting a $100 target gift card and two free lunches at restaurants out of it. Everyone at the company was so grateful for what I helped them with and they were all really nice people.

I know this is far from the norm, and that's why I'm generally against unpaid internships. But something like what I did should be ok.
As a rule (in my book):
-If you're working one on one with an employee of a company, learning valuable skills while helping out the company out a bit, that's totally fine.
-If you're put on menial tasks, and asked to deliver coffee, that shit better be payed.

I know most internships that are unpayed fall under the latter, and that's awful.
 
Last edited:

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
I know this is far from the norm, and that's why I'm generally against unpaid internships. But something like what I did should be ok.
As a rule (in my book):
-If you're working one on one with an employee of a company, learning valuable skills while helping out the company out a bit, that's totally fine.
-If you're put on menial tasks, and asked to deliver coffee, that shit better be payed.

I know most internships that are unpayed fall under the latter, and that's awful.
The latter is actually illegal. If it's unpaid, you cannot be doing work like that.
 

Qvoth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,896
i interned for sharp printer for 3 months for my diploma, pretty sure i got paid
this was in singapore though
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
Bingo

The problem is this isnt what they are these days.

That also doesn't mean I don't think internships for college credit can't work without pay per say.

They work in my department as they're done the way I described. It's a required part of the curriculum. Final semester they get a three hours course for the internship itself (reasonable amount of work hours over the semester but I forget the exact number) and it's paired with a three hour class where they do a project related to it (final paper and poster presentation at a end of semester seminar).

But I know that's rare.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,943
Internships where you get absolutely nothing? Yes, I agree.. Internships where you get something, but perhaps less than minimum wage? No. I was hired for my current job after completing a 6 month internship that only provided housing, and if the company had to spend a lot more on me with a regular wage they wouldn't have been able to justify the spending on an internship and would have just hired someone for my current position, which I would not have been able to receive without the experience I had during my internship. The system sucks though, so I wish there was a way to do it where interns were ensured not to be financially abused, but also provided with the full spectrum of experiences available now.
 

Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,893
It depends on the internship.

It's much more common nowadays to have internships that are paid, and you still receive credit for it.

Many post graduate programs almost demand that the internship is paid as part of the program.

Of course, my experiences with this is mainly based in California, so not sure if this is common for other states.
 
Oct 27, 2017
69
This seems to be a vestige of a foregone time when companies hired internally and you could work your way up the ranks. It has been commandeered for free labor, although I suppose in the context of college credit and actual educational value (independent of forced caffeine acquisition) it can be useful.
 

WoollyTitan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
558
The Maldovarium
No. It's a long-standing tradition that interns are the maggots of the work force. If you start paying them and treating them like real employees, then you can't treat them like shit! You can't make them wear propeller caps with "INTERN" monogrammed on the front. You can't make them fetch coffee twelve times over because they didn't get it right each time! You can't haggle login access for two weeks until they've "proven" themselves. You can't harass them and call it a "valuable workforce experience."

I.....it's plain obvious I have some bitter memories of being an intern. :P
 

Thorzilla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
690
Absolutely. Unpaid labor is still unpaid labor, no matter the spin a company tries to play to get free workforce.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,479
I had a 3 month internship (stage in Quebec), it was rough because I worked a full time job at the same time but it got me in the door.

My stage was a fixed 3 months that I knew beforehand. Not sure if the timeframe is set in other countries.

I still remember my old boss telling me that they wanted to hire me 2 weeks in but HR wouldn't approve because I was free labor lol
 

quocia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23
In the country I live in, interneships have to be paid if they last longer than 2 months (the maximum being 6 months).
So usually companies will ask either for 2 months (well, 1 month and 29 days) or six months. It makes things harder when people are looking for shorter internships just for summer but I'm glad it's regulated.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I think you should definitely at least give interns a stipend, especially if there's not an actual opportunity for full-employment after the internship. Unpaid internships should definitely be discouraged.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,651
It's a loophole that allows employers to take advantage of young people by making them work without pay.

It's absolutely something that exists to use people more than benefit them. It should be illegal. They're working. Pay them minimum wage.
 

MorningDew

Member
Oct 27, 2017
210
The company I work for does a combo of paid and expenses-only ones. The problem is that most graduates are fucking useless and cost us money to have at work. If we had to pay them a living wage, we simply wouldn't.

My company do employ interns and pay them but it's a low rate. Something like $15/hour for a summer job doing software. Yes, the pay seems low but it takes a lot of someone's time to train them. I had two who did work for me last summer. The difficulty is trying to think of smaller tasks that they could start with before progressing to bigger tasks. One person just completed his freshman year as a CS major. The other was in his first year of a PhD math program.

I also had to spend significant time training on the tools, helping them figure out problems, etc such it kept me from my own work. They were here for three months and then went back to school. Still, I would do it again because I enjoy working with students and it's possible they come back to work for us in the future or they could recommend one of their friends for a job or another internship.
 

Vommy

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,928
Had a 3 month full time intership this year for Uni and it was unpaid. Any kind of compensation would have been very welcomed. Turns out living without any income is quite difficult. The upside to the story: Got a job offer after the intership.