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Should we dismiss sexism, homophobia and transphobia in japanese games "because Japan"?
- Thread starter Shizuka
- Start date
No, the Yakuza team removed a fucked up transphobic mission from the re-releasse of Yakuza 3 with and the lead director said this
Pity it took until 2019 to get this side story translated :( it was one (of many) cut when 3 was originally translated but hey just another great reason to get the PS4 remasters instead! Also, fun fact is that this character Kiryu is talking to is a real transgender woman who frequently appears on Sega streams with Nagoshi promoting many Sega games, especially each new Yakuza game.
My support for this franchise has now increased furtherNo, the Yakuza team removed a fucked up transphobic mission from the re-releasse of Yakuza 3 with and the lead director said this
It's from the remaster of 3. That quest and a bunch of others were cut from the PS3 localization and readded in the remaster.
This pretty much destroys the "it's just their culture!" defence. If the Yakuza team can do it, your favourite Japanese dev can too.No, the Yakuza team removed a fucked up transphobic mission from the re-releasse of Yakuza 3 with and the lead director said this
Absolutely not. It's a hollow argument that is used by people who don't want to accept that a thing they like has problematic elements that can't just be handwaved away.
Persona is a global franchise now. It sells seven digits in the west. "Because Japan" didn't cut it before and it especially doesn't cut it now. Atlus/Sega has had countless opportunities to tell Hashino that his writing is LGBT-phobic and sexist and instead they just let him do whatever he wants. A Persona game isn't made in a bubble.
Persona is a global franchise now. It sells seven digits in the west. "Because Japan" didn't cut it before and it especially doesn't cut it now. Atlus/Sega has had countless opportunities to tell Hashino that his writing is LGBT-phobic and sexist and instead they just let him do whatever he wants. A Persona game isn't made in a bubble.
To be fair Persona itself is teaching these people that homophobia is accepted and a part of Japan's culture by either removing them of a story about modern society or outright antagonizing them so I'm not surprised they act this way. They're literally taught this is how Japan acts and thinks they're looking at a mirror inside the inner workings of the country. Persona is not alone in this case though, Yakuza used to be especially egregious about this before they changed it. Hell, Persona itself was different in the early three games in the series (well, mostly)
This. No one's going to come into this thread and say "yes," but multitudes of fans — in this case, Persona fans — say yes implicitly by enthusiastically supporting discriminatory products while being silent to or dismissive of their flaws.
(That's not to shame anyone for buying a particular game, but really, at least hold your darlings to higher standards and be vocal with criticism of their problematic elements. That's the only way change will come.)
No, of course not.
Yet we have people here who simply says: "that's Kojima" or "it's a cultural thing".
Yet we have people here who simply says: "that's Kojima" or "it's a cultural thing".
To what end? Atlus has demonstrated from time to time that they do not give a damn about feedback from the West. It's an exercise on futility to me.
Hell, I'd say they do not care about feedback from within Japan itself either. At least regarding this issue on particualr.
I bet my face their attitude towards LBGT issues probably earned them some new fans from the anti SJW screw.
If we speak up, it'll give those in Japan more reason to join in & voice their complaints. Maybe then Atlus will listen (either that or Sega may step in).
You are probably right, and a lot of them don't seem to understand the fact that wanting your favorite things to be better isn't saying they should cease to exist. Almost everyone else and I just want the homophobia to cease to exist. It's a lot like the discourse every time diversity in Smash is brought up: People aren't saying Smash is garbage, they just want it to have more diversity, which is a good thing. You CAN want your favorite thing to be better.
Also I swear I remember reading someone that apparently a good amount of Japanese fans take issue with the LGBT-phobic issues of the Persona games. P3 had transphobia in it, P4 had homophobia and P4G had fat "jokes", P5 had homophobia. The thing that makes it all the more frustrating is that some of this stuff is inherently against the very themes the game rides on. An example in Persona 4:
Kanji's dungeon is about him being afraid of everyone thinking he's gay, and they try to imply that is true self is gay, but then reveal it's actually more about toxic masculinity. He had a lot of tendencies people would consider "gay", such as liking cute things, while he tries to keep up the "tough guy" front. It's honestly something I could identify with, but I think the issue of that segment was all the other characters giving him sideeye for possibly being gay, and saying "wow is he really that weird?". Yosuke keeps this bullshit up for the rest of the game, such as not wanting to sleep near him in a tent on the camping trip because he's afraid Kanji will "do things" to him in his sleep.
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Funny, that. Because I've seen many cases on this very forum where people's concerns about P5's homophobia/sexism were dismissed with that exact rationale: "so what if people like you are portrayed to be pedophiles in it, yOu CaN'T juSt diSmiSs tHE eNtIrE gAmE."
Its "because Japan" is a lame way to deflect criticism.
You definitely have the right to criticize/protest political agendas Japanese companies push in their games towards the western audiences. I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable trying to change another country's culture without being a part of it(stuff they do in their own country), It's something the Japanese have to do for them self imo.
You definitely have the right to criticize/protest political agendas Japanese companies push in their games towards the western audiences. I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable trying to change another country's culture without being a part of it(stuff they do in their own country), It's something the Japanese have to do for them self imo.
Yeah when i saw the thread that episode was on my mind too
Japan doesnt get a pass, ever
Yeah, this is how I feel. Look, there's a lot of Persona 5 I like, but also I think it has some capital P Problems when it comes to its treatment of women and LGBT. Acknowledging that something you like has some major issues and calling out those issues is way better than trying to deny it with hollow excuses.
And yes, I second that while no one is going to come into this thread and say yes, I see this argument *all the time* in Persona/Catherine threads.
Wait, this scene was actually already part of the original japanese release of the PS3 version, but cut for the english release?? That shines a rather bad light on those who localised the game at that time.
The problem is that Atlus will continue to ignore them like they have done so far. And Sega will continue to turn a blind eye to it. There must be another, more direct way to get them to understand.
Unfortunately, that's pretty much what always happens. They see it as a direct attack against what they enjoy and react accordingly i.e violently.
No, but still one needs to be mindful of cultural relativism. I see a lot of people on here being extremely standofish about Japanese cultural norms, and while I can understand it, I dont think the approach is very useful in trying to change anything about some of the more problematic aspects of said culture.
I think dialogue goes a long way. Yelling at people who cant hear or understand you on a Gaming forum accomplishes nothing.
I think dialogue goes a long way. Yelling at people who cant hear or understand you on a Gaming forum accomplishes nothing.
I've said this over the years when talking to other people about Japan: "The country may look and be more modern in my respects - relative to what Western countries call modern -, but when it comes to certain social issues, they feel like they're still 50 years behind." It's one of the reasons why I'm not interested in living my life there, even though I studied the language and lived there for a year. The way women are treated can be disgusting.
Their backwards views shouldn't be excused in any way. They can be explained or contextualized I suppose, but not excused. Like, say, the blackface controversies of the past few years can be explained, but they shouldn't be handwaved away - it's still blackface, after all. That said, they should be lauded and encouraged to do better when they actually show signs of social progressiveness (e.g. that Yakuza example above).
Their backwards views shouldn't be excused in any way. They can be explained or contextualized I suppose, but not excused. Like, say, the blackface controversies of the past few years can be explained, but they shouldn't be handwaved away - it's still blackface, after all. That said, they should be lauded and encouraged to do better when they actually show signs of social progressiveness (e.g. that Yakuza example above).
No, the Yakuza team removed a fucked up transphobic mission from the re-releasse of Yakuza 3 with and the lead director said this
Kiryu is the goddamn best
It was likely more due to time and budgetary constraints as it was apart of several cut side stories in that localization. I wouldn't chock it up to anything sinister, especially since they readded it to the remaster without any significant backlash to begin with. Yakuza has gained a larger fanbase in the West since then, and it was worth doing the remaster right.
Honestly OP I would argue saying "it's Japan" is a racist statement. As if bigotry is innate to Japanese culture and the people. Ignoring that Japan is in the transition of becoming more progressive. Yes they're behind many western nations on this front but people over there are fighting for better rights everyday. E.g. Sexism is still a thing but there are more women in the work place fighting for equality now then before. That's progress and proof things CAN and WILL get better.
This is something that bugs me because a lot of posters on this forum in their bitterness will just brand all of Japan as bigoted and "oh of course the Japanese game is homophobic". For a website that embraces diversity and acceptance, there are a lot of people sadly quick to other those who are not as accepting.
Call a spade a spade, my friends. This is shitty CONSERVATIVE Japanese culture. It's not reflective of Japan entirely and we must support our progressive Japanese allies. I know a lot of you guys live in the US and I'm sure you'd be pissed if people overseas thought all Americans were republicans.
This is something that bugs me because a lot of posters on this forum in their bitterness will just brand all of Japan as bigoted and "oh of course the Japanese game is homophobic". For a website that embraces diversity and acceptance, there are a lot of people sadly quick to other those who are not as accepting.
Call a spade a spade, my friends. This is shitty CONSERVATIVE Japanese culture. It's not reflective of Japan entirely and we must support our progressive Japanese allies. I know a lot of you guys live in the US and I'm sure you'd be pissed if people overseas thought all Americans were republicans.
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I am not Japanese and I do not speak with authority on how Japanese people think or feel, but this is a conversation I have had with Japanese people, friends of Japanese descent, and with people who live or have lived in Japan personally. I cannot claim personal or objective knowledge on the Japanese experience but this is my understanding and my opinion as informed by conversations with people who can.
Straight up, comments like "because Japan" are modern Orientalism. It is non-Japanese people using a falsely inferred Japanese identity to defend their favorite products. They are not defending Japanese sensibilities when they make this defense, they are defending their own.
Japanese people hate this. People of Japanese descent hate this too. Imagine people making judgments on your entire culture based on the limited amount of media that is exported to them. Imagine that most of these products are pornography, cartoons, or video games meant for specific subsections of your population. Imagine people feel like they understand Japan and its "sensitivities" because they have played every Persona game. These people are real. They're the same people who accuse you of Imperialism when you say "this game should have less homophobia."
There are women in Japan. There are gay people in Japan. There are trans people in Japan. Japanese people in these groups are just as badly affected by mainstream prejudice and bigotry in their culture as people are elsewhere in the world. The argument that these things are not important to Japanese people, or are "not a problem in Japan" is wrong. You are not supposed to object to prejudice because it offends your sensibilities. You are supposed to object to prejudice because it hurts people. Prejudice hurts people regardless of where it comes from.
When you say you should be more forgiving towards prejudice because it comes from Japan, you are indicating that the people in Japan who are hurt by this content don't matter. Only you, the international consumer, matters. And since you've decided intolerance is acceptable when it's Japanese, who cares about them?
These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself:
Do you think women in Japan who suffer discrimination, sexism, or abuse are looking at how they're portrayed in Japanese media and have no objections?
Do you think gay or lesbian people in Japan have no opinions on homophobia?
Do you think there are no people in Japan who find this same content distasteful?
The argument that this sort of content is more tolerable because it's Japanese in origin is a bad one. It straight up erases all the minorities or marginalized people in those countries by assuming they are not hurt by all the same material. It also describes Japanese people as universally tolerant of objectionable or hurtful content. It's attributing a universal cultural identity to Japan that does not exist.
Societal and cultural norms, patterns, and trends absolutely exist. There are countries all over the world with broad societal and cultural intolerances. But you have to stop defending oppression from the point of view of the oppressor. It is not okay that there are broad or prevalent intolerances anywhere in the world. Oppose it, and object to it, wherever you see it. Not just because of how it makes you feel, but because of how it affects the people who actually live there.
Edit: One more thing. International discussions like this suffer from a distinct lack of Japanese voices. It is almost always non-Japanese people attempting to interpret and draw conclusions based on a country they've never visited, a language they don't speak, and a culture they've never been part of. This is a big part of what feeds this issue. The language barrier keeps people like us from ever hearing actual Japanese opinions or perspectives so instead we just reinforce or dismantle the ones available to us. Those are rarely Japanese and that is unfortunate.
Straight up, comments like "because Japan" are modern Orientalism. It is non-Japanese people using a falsely inferred Japanese identity to defend their favorite products. They are not defending Japanese sensibilities when they make this defense, they are defending their own.
Japanese people hate this. People of Japanese descent hate this too. Imagine people making judgments on your entire culture based on the limited amount of media that is exported to them. Imagine that most of these products are pornography, cartoons, or video games meant for specific subsections of your population. Imagine people feel like they understand Japan and its "sensitivities" because they have played every Persona game. These people are real. They're the same people who accuse you of Imperialism when you say "this game should have less homophobia."
There are women in Japan. There are gay people in Japan. There are trans people in Japan. Japanese people in these groups are just as badly affected by mainstream prejudice and bigotry in their culture as people are elsewhere in the world. The argument that these things are not important to Japanese people, or are "not a problem in Japan" is wrong. You are not supposed to object to prejudice because it offends your sensibilities. You are supposed to object to prejudice because it hurts people. Prejudice hurts people regardless of where it comes from.
When you say you should be more forgiving towards prejudice because it comes from Japan, you are indicating that the people in Japan who are hurt by this content don't matter. Only you, the international consumer, matters. And since you've decided intolerance is acceptable when it's Japanese, who cares about them?
These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself:
Do you think women in Japan who suffer discrimination, sexism, or abuse are looking at how they're portrayed in Japanese media and have no objections?
Do you think gay or lesbian people in Japan have no opinions on homophobia?
Do you think there are no people in Japan who find this same content distasteful?
The argument that this sort of content is more tolerable because it's Japanese in origin is a bad one. It straight up erases all the minorities or marginalized people in those countries by assuming they are not hurt by all the same material. It also describes Japanese people as universally tolerant of objectionable or hurtful content. It's attributing a universal cultural identity to Japan that does not exist.
Societal and cultural norms, patterns, and trends absolutely exist. There are countries all over the world with broad societal and cultural intolerances. But you have to stop defending oppression from the point of view of the oppressor. It is not okay that there are broad or prevalent intolerances anywhere in the world. Oppose it, and object to it, wherever you see it. Not just because of how it makes you feel, but because of how it affects the people who actually live there.
Edit: One more thing. International discussions like this suffer from a distinct lack of Japanese voices. It is almost always non-Japanese people attempting to interpret and draw conclusions based on a country they've never visited, a language they don't speak, and a culture they've never been part of. This is a big part of what feeds this issue. The language barrier keeps people like us from ever hearing actual Japanese opinions or perspectives so instead we just reinforce or dismantle the ones available to us. Those are rarely Japanese and that is unfortunate.
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Fuck no. It assumes that all people in a foreign country share those values/has no LGBTQ people and that's just ridiculous.
Damn that's beautiful
No, the Yakuza team removed a fucked up transphobic mission from the re-releasse of Yakuza 3 with and the lead director said this
Damn that's beautiful
Yeah the original localization was pretty bad. They cut a lot of sidequests, removed the hostess club and some other minigames and changed some character names.
I use that phrase to "explain" not to "excuse" if that makes any sense. The only change that can happen is from within.
I think when people try to attack Japan and its fandoms for the things they enjoy they become entrenched in their beliefs and how they are in the right, I think unless education and other things happen to make the conversation less reactionary and more devs get the ability to capitalize on different types of games we'll probably not see a huge shift in that regard.
There's still been a quite noticeable change in the way the matter is handled in some spaces in Japan, but not a ton.
I think when people try to attack Japan and its fandoms for the things they enjoy they become entrenched in their beliefs and how they are in the right, I think unless education and other things happen to make the conversation less reactionary and more devs get the ability to capitalize on different types of games we'll probably not see a huge shift in that regard.
There's still been a quite noticeable change in the way the matter is handled in some spaces in Japan, but not a ton.
Queer Eye did 4 episodes in Japan that were just released on Friday and they're absolutely fantastic. One of the people who they work with is a gay guy and he touches a lot on how difficult it still is to be gay in Japan. I think outside of the gaming community, a lot of people in the west are probably in the dark about how many issues Japan has in regards to this sort of thing. A friend of mine and his husband have really been fighting hard for their marriage to be recognized without any luck yet. It'll be a long fight.
I'm playing through Dragon Quest 11 at the moment and I'm amazed at how casually sexist it is. I saw bits of it playing Dragon Quest Builders but from the sounds of it the whole series is just that bad. The sexism is literally built into the traditions of the series which is apparently what it sells itself on
IIRC the original side quest wasn't like this but instead fairly problematic, that's why it was cut in the english release. The devs fixed this quests in the remaster.
Couldn't believe some shit in Builders 2 chapter 2...
This is a pretty damn good point.
About the last part though, hasn't Japan been under a conservative administration for decades with the rest of the political parties having little to no power?
I think I'm gonna save this post for when I see another "it's Japan culture" bullshit argument.
Btw, I got told something similar when I went to Japan by japanese people (although it's just anecdotal)
Things are looking brighter at least now that Taiwan has legalised same sex marriage. I'm not sure if this will have any effect on other Asian countries but my hope is it was a great encouragement for LGBT advocates across Asia.
Unfortunately it is but I think it's a think matter of time things will change as the youth grows up and enters politics.