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Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
I sure as hell haven't seen very many people here excusing that bullshit in P5R. Now outside of ResetERA is a different story, TONS of people excuse and even defend that garbage.

In the thread that was posted recently about P5R's bigotry, there were quite a lot of people handwaving the homophobic and sexist bits away. Some were even trying to completely rationalize, say, the disgusting gay stereotype characters, by saying that the main characters' response to their advance was understandable etc.
 

Alpha_ulquiorra

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
281
Not that we should, but we dismiss the concerns of black people all the time. So these arguments always make me feel some type of way.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
In the thread that was posted recently about P5R, there were quite a lot of people handwaving the homophobic and sexist bits away. Some were even trying to completely rationalize, say, the disgusting gay stereotype characters, by saying that the main characters' response to their advance was understandable etc.
Yeah I think a lot of people forget that Atlus can write the game how they want, including not including homophobic stereotype characters, especially since they literally add nothing to the game other than a """"joke"""". The same can be said in Persona 3 with the transphobia...literally adds nothing to the story and could have been removed and nothing would have been different. Hell the same thing even goes for Persona 4, as you could easily write Kanji's segment to focus on the toxic mascuilinity aspect rather than calling him potentially being gay "weird", or Yosuke's shitty comments the rest of the game.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
Edit: One more thing. International discussions like this suffer from a distinct lack of Japanese voices. It is almost always non-Japanese people attempting to interpret and draw conclusions based on a country they've never visited, a language they don't speak, and a culture they've never been part of. This is a big part of what feeds this issue. The language barrier keeps people like us from ever hearing actual Japanese opinions or perspectives so instead we just reinforce or dismantle the ones available to us. Those are rarely Japanese and that is unfortunate.

This is a big problem I have with these discussions. Also why they tend to come off as kind of racist to me. Both the people defending the bigotry and those who criticise it. Without any counterpoints from LGBT and women living in Japan, it usually results in a group of non-Japanese people criticising Japan and erasing the existence of minority groups in the country.

I always roll my eyes honestly when a white expat comes back from Japan and attempts to "enlighten" the masses on how terrible the country apparently is. It comes off a bit "white savior-y" at times. Like Japan needs westerners to tell them how to be a modern country. It is a great insult to the people who live and struggle within that society.

By all means call out bigotry and criticise Japanese social politics but make sure you're supporting the people who live there and suffer under said bigotry.
 

llLeonhart

Member
Oct 21, 2019
186
Would anyone say yes?

However, it is a process, and it won't happen overnight, but we should keep pushing them in the right direction.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,421
well I mean you wouldn't use "it's japan" to excuse poor net code, or poor mechanics, or a poor story, or poor pacing, or any of the other things you can criticize entertainment for.

So it's not a defense for criticism of homophobia, sexism, and all that jazz.

i think there is however a difference between this game does this wrong versus this game does this thing wrong and is irredeemable trash game is where there is a disconnect in this convo.

But Japanese games are getting called out on this shit at this point, the Uber apologists might use the "but japan" defense; but it hasn't kept people from being critical.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
And racism.. idk why yall never include it.

A mix of people not listening to the lived experiences of minorities in Japan and Japan being mostly Japanese so less depictions of non-Japanese/white people in their media. Even when those depictions are there, they are usually informed by western imperialist depictions. E.g. How Black people are depicted in Japanese media.

While in the west we're, unfortunately, slowly getting the memo and putting out better representations of PoC. Japan isn't and still influenced by those old racist depictions.
 

LordGorchnik

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,286
No, across all cultures. Who the hell honestly would answer yes to this question?

As someone who lived in Japan for 8 years, while still being anecdotal from my persepctive, I understand Japan "looks or seems" like they do this worse than other countries but America (as well as other places) still has tons of media content that has this issue as well.

Get rid of it.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,495
I am not Japanese and I do not speak with authority on how Japanese people think or feel, but this is a conversation I have had with Japanese people, friends of Japanese descent, and with people who live or have lived in Japan personally. I cannot claim personal or objective knowledge on the Japanese experience but this is my understanding and my opinion as informed by conversations with people who can.


Straight up, comments like "because Japan" are modern Orientalism. It is non-Japanese people using a falsely inferred Japanese identity to defend their favorite products. They are not defending Japanese sensibilities when they make this defense, they are defending their own.

Japanese people hate this. People of Japanese descent hate this too. Imagine people making judgments on your entire culture based on the limited amount of media that is exported to them. Imagine that most of these products are pornography, cartoons, or video games meant for specific subsections of your population. Imagine people feel like they understand Japan and its "sensitivities" because they have played every Persona game. These people are real. They're the same people who accuse you of Imperialism when you say "this game should have less homophobia."


There are women in Japan. There are gay people in Japan. There are trans people in Japan. Japanese people in these groups are just as badly affected by mainstream prejudice and bigotry in their culture as people are elsewhere in the world. The argument that these things are not important to Japanese people, or are "not a problem in Japan" is wrong. You are not supposed to object to prejudice because it offends your sensibilities. You are supposed to object to prejudice because it hurts people. Prejudice hurts people regardless of where it comes from.

When you say you should be more forgiving towards prejudice because it comes from Japan, you are indicating that the people in Japan who are hurt by this content don't matter. Only you, the international consumer, matters. And since you've decided intolerance is acceptable when it's Japanese, who cares about them?

These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself:
Do you think women in Japan who suffer discrimination, sexism, or abuse are looking at how they're portrayed in Japanese media and have no objections?
Do you think gay or lesbian people in Japan have no opinions on homophobia?
Do you think there are people no in Japan who find this same content distasteful?

The argument that this sort of content is more tolerable because it's Japanese in origin is a bad one. It straight up erases all the minorities or marginalized people in those countries by assuming they are not hurt by all the same material. It also describes Japanese people as universally tolerant of objectionable or hurtful content. It's attributing a universal cultural identity to Japan that does not exist.


Societal and cultural norms, patterns, and trends absolutely exist. There are countries all over the world with broad societal and cultural intolerances. But you have to stop defending oppression from the point of view of the oppressor. It is not okay that there are broad or prevalent intolerances anywhere in the world. Oppose it, and object to it, wherever you see it. Not just because of how it makes you feel, but because of how it affects the people who actually live there.


Edit: One more thing. International discussions like this suffer from a distinct lack of Japanese voices. It is almost always non-Japanese people attempting to interpret and draw conclusions based on a country they've never visited, a language they don't speak, and a culture they've never been part of. This is a big part of what feeds this issue. The language barrier keeps people like us from ever hearing actual Japanese opinions or perspectives so instead we just reinforce or dismantle the ones available to us. Those are rarely Japanese and that is unfortunate.

You put it far better than I could, thank you for writing this. It is always frustrating to see how "Japan" is used in these situations; both those criticizing and those defending are guilty of it.

And in particular, it always bothers me how quick people are to believe that there's nobody in Japan who could possibly care about these issues, and that any criticism is framed as coming from people who a work was not meant to be for, erasing anything said by marginalized people who are actually part of the intended audience. I really wish there was at least more work done to get Japanese people into these conversations when reporting is done on them, though I understand that their games media not really being similar to ours makes it hard to collaborate on things even before considering the language barrier...
 
OP
OP
Shizuka

Shizuka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,110
I am not Japanese and I do not speak with authority on how Japanese people think or feel, but this is a conversation I have had with Japanese people, friends of Japanese descent, and with people who live or have lived in Japan personally. I cannot claim personal or objective knowledge on the Japanese experience but this is my understanding and my opinion as informed by conversations with people who can.


Straight up, comments like "because Japan" are modern Orientalism. It is non-Japanese people using a falsely inferred Japanese identity to defend their favorite products. They are not defending Japanese sensibilities when they make this defense, they are defending their own.

Japanese people hate this. People of Japanese descent hate this too. Imagine people making judgments on your entire culture based on the limited amount of media that is exported to them. Imagine that most of these products are pornography, cartoons, or video games meant for specific subsections of your population. Imagine people feel like they understand Japan and its "sensitivities" because they have played every Persona game. These people are real. They're the same people who accuse you of Imperialism when you say "this game should have less homophobia."


There are women in Japan. There are gay people in Japan. There are trans people in Japan. Japanese people in these groups are just as badly affected by mainstream prejudice and bigotry in their culture as people are elsewhere in the world. The argument that these things are not important to Japanese people, or are "not a problem in Japan" is wrong. You are not supposed to object to prejudice because it offends your sensibilities. You are supposed to object to prejudice because it hurts people. Prejudice hurts people regardless of where it comes from.

When you say you should be more forgiving towards prejudice because it comes from Japan, you are indicating that the people in Japan who are hurt by this content don't matter. Only you, the international consumer, matters. And since you've decided intolerance is acceptable when it's Japanese, who cares about them?

These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself:
Do you think women in Japan who suffer discrimination, sexism, or abuse are looking at how they're portrayed in Japanese media and have no objections?
Do you think gay or lesbian people in Japan have no opinions on homophobia?
Do you think there are no people in Japan who find this same content distasteful?

The argument that this sort of content is more tolerable because it's Japanese in origin is a bad one. It straight up erases all the minorities or marginalized people in those countries by assuming they are not hurt by all the same material. It also describes Japanese people as universally tolerant of objectionable or hurtful content. It's attributing a universal cultural identity to Japan that does not exist.


Societal and cultural norms, patterns, and trends absolutely exist. There are countries all over the world with broad societal and cultural intolerances. But you have to stop defending oppression from the point of view of the oppressor. It is not okay that there are broad or prevalent intolerances anywhere in the world. Oppose it, and object to it, wherever you see it. Not just because of how it makes you feel, but because of how it affects the people who actually live there.


Edit: One more thing. International discussions like this suffer from a distinct lack of Japanese voices. It is almost always non-Japanese people attempting to interpret and draw conclusions based on a country they've never visited, a language they don't speak, and a culture they've never been part of. This is a big part of what feeds this issue. The language barrier keeps people like us from ever hearing actual Japanese opinions or perspectives so instead we just reinforce or dismantle the ones available to us. Those are rarely Japanese and that is unfortunate.

I need to save this post, it'll surely come in handy many times in the future. Thank you for that.
 

scottbeowulf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,363
United States
Queer Eye did 4 episodes in Japan that were just released on Friday and they're absolutely fantastic. One of the people who they work with is a gay guy and he touches a lot on how difficult it still is to be gay in Japan. I think outside of the gaming community, a lot of people in the west are probably in the dark about how many issues Japan has in regards to this sort of thing. A friend of mine and his husband have really been fighting hard for their marriage to be recognized without any luck yet. It'll be a long fight.
I have one episode left. God damn queer eye making me tear up this week. Such great episodes in Japan. Heartwarming as hell.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
I get the issue but they're kinda just showing that all people aren't the same and that some truly suck no matter what.

If you hide things from the world it will be worse when people encounter it in real life.

I don't think anything should be censored.

Some people suck and you will encounter them in real life why hide the fact that this exists?

It's like how programs on the UK are hesitant to show people smoking or drinking it happens why hide it.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,711
United States
I need to save this post, it'll surely come in handy many times in the future. Thank you for that.

I also should mention that even though I use language like "you" in the post I didn't mean you specifically. Hopefully I didn't come across that way. You were asking theoretically and I answered theoretically but now reading it back I worry it sounds very direct.

Please forgive if at any point I seemed to be make any assumptions about you personally. That wasn't my intention at all.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I get the issue but they're kinda just showing that all people aren't the same and that some truly suck no matter what.

If you hide things from the world it will be worse when people encounter it in real life.

I don't think anything should be censored.

Some people suck and you will encounter them in real life why hide the fact that this exists?

It's like how programs on the UK are hesitant to show people smoking or drinking it happens why hide it.

Sexism, racism and homophia isn't the same as people smoking and people from different races, gender or sexual orientation shouldn't be insulted when they are just playing a game.

Also, media is pretty important in pushing ideas into people and the longer some media ignores the issues of women, PoC and LGTBI people the longer the people that consumes it will ignore it too.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
People don't dismiss these things because it's a Japanese game.

People dismiss these things because they don't want to have to skip the game and then they make up the Japan thing as a quasi-reason to not have to admit that.
 
OP
OP
Shizuka

Shizuka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,110
I also should mention that even though I use language like "you" in the post I didn't mean you specifically. Hopefully I didn't come across that way. You were asking theoretically and I answered theoretically but now reading it back I worry it sounds very direct.

Please forgive if at any point I seemed to be make any assumptions about you personally. That wasn't my intention at all.

Don't worry, I didn't take it as you were talking to me specifically, specially because I would never dismiss sexism, homophobia or transphobia in any situation. I've been meaning to bring up this subject ever since I made my last thread and thought that I didn't dive into the issue deep enough last time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
Vote with your wallet. I always found it strange how ERA and Oldgaf talked out of both sides of the mouth. On the etcetera side and occasionally gaming side you would have people calling out this stuff in other forms of media and public personalities, but then you have a 100+ page thread of some game that has sexism and homophobia. People here want to have their cake and eat it too. I'm guilty of it. The least we can do is at least be self aware about what we are supporting by giving money to these folks.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,711
United States
Don't worry, I didn't take it as you were talking to me specifically, specially because I would never dismiss sexism, homophobia or transphobia in any situation. I've been meaning to bring up this subject ever since I made my last thread and thought that I didn't dive into the issue deep enough last time.

All the more reason I wouldn't want to come across as accusing you. I'm glad I clarified, even if it was a one-sided concern on my part. Sometimes I read more confrontational than I intend to and didn't want to leave you with the wrong impression. 🤝
 

Small Red Boy

▲ Legend ▲
Member
May 9, 2019
2,678
Better question-when would we ever dismiss sexism, homophobia, and transphobia?

Never.
Basically this.


No, the Yakuza team removed a fucked up transphobic mission from the re-releasse of Yakuza 3 with and the lead director said this




47p596aizyq31.png
OMG this is so lovely, I'm about to cry.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
Sexism, racism and homophia isn't the same as people smoking and people from different races, gender or sexual orientation shouldn't be insulted when they are just playing a game.

Also, media is pretty important in pushing ideas into people and the longer some media ignores the issues of women, PoC and LGTBI people the longer the people that consumes it will ignore it too.
I get you. I'm not saying it's OK just that unfortunately it's a thing in real life so it makes no sense to pretend like this stuff doesn't happen in the world.

Kinda like that idiot who was trying to say the world wars shouldn't be taught as its damaging to people's mental health too know that people sacrificed a lot so they could have a good life.

You can't just depict the good of the world otherwise bad things will be repeated. You need to also show how ugly the world is to stop people making the same mistakes themselves.
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,925
Austin, TX
I have one episode left. God damn queer eye making me tear up this week. Such great episodes in Japan. Heartwarming as hell.
We have the fourth episode left as well. The first episode with Yoko made me cry about 5 times. Big ol fat tears that streamed down my face at one point too. Usually they might get me once an episode but this one just kept hitting me in the feels!
 

DrM2theJ

Member
Feb 13, 2018
49
Sometimes Western people discuss Japan as if it is a monolith, but Japanese society is full of people with different opinions and many of them are more Progressive and open-minded than they think. I had the good fortune long ago to live with a young host family there who was (and still is) very open-minded and learned first-hand about the diversity of thought that exists there.

This is why I get a bit annoyed when I see a "because Japan" excuse for things like thoughtless bigotry or sexism or racism in a Japanese game. One example that comes to mind for me is Tokyo Mirage Sessions and how it underwent changes in the West that will be back-applied to the Japanese Switch port. I'm sure there are Japanese people who would be turned off if they left the ages of the characters and the sexualization of the characters the way it was in the original version, I've little doubt of that.

It reminds me of how, if you spend enough time in Japan, you'll eventually happen upon somebody in the train looking through a lewd magazine or manga out in public. Probably nobody will say anything, but plenty of people do think that kind of thing is super inappropriate and kind of gross in Japan. Their silence isn't approval.
 

Zellia

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
UK
No, of course not. To dismiss it does a disservice to the Japanese LGBT community.

Bigotry is never acceptable and we all - Western, Japanese, whatever - can and should do better.
 

Dee Dee

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,868
Side note, I clicked on the link to the other thread in the OP, and wondered if said offensive Visual Novel could possibly be "Our World is Ended", and yup, of course it was.
I'll read that OG thread later to maybe see if it's worth it to keep playing that ass game.
I made the mistake of playing it on a plane last weekend - I would like to officially apologize to anyone in my vicinity on that flight for exposing them to a lot of high school girl boobage. I am sorry. I thought "I'm sure that's just one scene, let's quickly click through it" but nope. It was ALL THE SCENES.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,267
Of course not, but I also only play a few games coming out of Japan these days so honestly I cant say I've been encountering it either. Pretty sure I remember there being some questionable material in Persona 5, but tbh I was so zoned out on that I cant even recall what it was.
 

Homura

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 20, 2019
6,107
No but it doesn't mean we shouldn't buy their games.
We can both support japanese companies and criticize them for sexism/racism/homophobia/transphobia.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
Absolutely not. It's extremely disrespectful to the LGBT people living in Japan, and the people who say the country doesn't care are upholding the infantilized, for-consumption international perception of the country many people have been trying to break down for decades.
 

alpha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,006
No. Because that shit should never be excused and because it's demeaning to all the Japanese folks who aren't like this and the ones living in Japan as gay/trans people dealing with this to lump them all into one whole.