Should we still be building single-family homes?

Oct 28, 2017
8,690
Staples Center

AA debate is stirring nationally around single-family housing. Last year in California, which is experiencing a severe housing shortage, efforts were made—and thwarted by homeowners—to change zoning to allow more dense development, part of an attempt to decrease housing costs by increasing the housing supply. The Minneapolis City Council passed similar legislation.

An often-vitriolic discourse has emerged online about the best ways to reduce the cost of housing in cities, with the solutions falling mainly into two camps. The first is the YIMBY (yes in my backyard) camp, which argues that the housing crisis can be mitigated by upzoning and increasing housing supply, and that affordability will come in the form of either “filtering” (essentially trickle-down housing economics, where increased supply means decreased demand and therefore lower rent) or by incentivizing developers to allocate a certain percentage of new units as being explicitly affordable at different income levels. The other camp has been dubbed “PHIMBY” (public housing in my backyard), a catch-all term for changing affordability through social housing, rent control, community land trusts, and other similar measures. Meanwhile, the enemy of both are the NIMBYs—the not in my backyard coalition—who oppose new development at all costs on the grounds that it will alter “neighborhood character,” decrease availability of parking, or lower property values.

Most of this debate revolves around not the houses themselves, but zoning and land use. That makes sense. The houses cannot be extricated from the land upon which they sit and the policies that govern its use. And perhaps it’s no surprise that the vitriol toward single-family housing tends to center in urban areas where housing is scarce, and where other housing types are visible. But the debate also raises larger questions about single-family homes: What is their value in this current political moment? And is it immoral for us to keep building them?
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,794
State-provided housing, or at the very least home rentals with state oversight has always sounded like a good solution to me. Landlords are parasites, so anything to be done that loosens their grip on the working class sounds good to me.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,092
Chicago
If someone owns land and wants to build a single-family home on it, with their money, go for it. Cities have zoning restrictions that guide the construction that can go up in a particular neighborhood. Those are enough.

State-provided housing, or at the very least home rentals with state oversight has always sounded like a good solution to me. Landlords are parasites, so anything to be done that loosens their grip on the working class sounds good to me.
I remember this wonderful little gem. Never change, Resetera.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
17,581
We shouldn't really be building many new buildings of any kind
 

MrMephistoX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
If someone owns land and wants to build a single-family home on it, with their money, go for it. Cities have zoning restrictions that guide the construction that can go up in a particular neighborhood. Those are enough.



I remember this wonderful little gem. Never change, Resetera.
I’ve been trying to sell my house for 6 months and became a parasite today...
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,489
Yes but you should be paying for it for it’s true cost and no more subsidies for it.
 

MimosaSTG

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,085
State-provided housing, or at the very least home rentals with state oversight has always sounded like a good solution to me. Landlords are parasites, so anything to be done that loosens their grip on the working class sounds good to me.
Thanks man. Glad to know I'm a parasite. I probably offer better prices than government funded housing in my area. I've had the same tenant for 7 years and never raised their price. They pay 450 a month. It's gotten to the point where if they even fell on hard times I'd probably let them stay there for a free and not charge back rent.

But the person living there before liked to punch holes in the wall and leave piles of garbage around the house so I had them leave. I'm pretty sure that they think I'm a parasite since they decided to pour concrete down the toilet.

I know there are bad landlords out there. A lot of them. Especially those with tons of tenants who have property managers who don't care about anything other than collecting the check, but there are good ones out there.
 

CrocM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,805
Privileged people will say it's not important, but we have tens of thousands of people in the US that are homeless. Many of them are kids. We need more housing and the way to do that cheaply is to build it densely. Yes, in your backyard.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
17,581
Nah. Smart housing is better than single family homes.

What are you gonna tell all these new people from developing countries?
I'm not talking about developing countries. In places like the US and Europe we have ridiculous amounts of buildings that can do so much more than they already do. Increasingly the cost, implicit and explicit, of new construction is outweighing the cost of renovating existing structures. Significant portions of our housing stock sits unused most of the time and can be freed up through various forms of regulations like banning Airbnb.
What? A lot of buildings are complete shit.
And the new buildings we build to replace them will be complete shit too, just in different ways we may not be able to predict yet. See the Apple hq for the textbook example of designing a perfect building only for it to fail to meet the needs of its clients. That kind of architectural philosophy is on its way out and thank god it is
New buildings are fine, but only when they're really needed. We already have more residential space than we need in most cities, it just isn't allocated and distributed in a way that makes sense. It doesn't make sense to keep making buildings that will continue to have substantial unoccupied space when we already have tons of underutilized buildings already
 

Rune Walsh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,734
I've been seeing a ton of apartment buildings going up near my neighborhood and I don't have a big problem with it. The main problem will be the massive influx of cars on old 4-lane roads that aren't capable of handling such an influx of traffic. I also live near a major university hospital and campus, a VA hospital, and multiple schools. Our city is also notoriously bad with public transit so there's no way for anyone to get in or out without a car.
 

supra

Member
Oct 30, 2017
339
We've got a ton of space outside of the coasts, avoiding suburbanization and keeping public transit well funded is a must if building new.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,092
Chicago
Thanks man. Glad to know I'm a parasite. I probably offer better prices than government funded housing in my area. I've had the same tenant for 7 years and never raised their price. They pay 450 a month. It's gotten to the point where if they even fell on hard times I'd probably let them stay there for a free and not charge back rent.

But the person living there before liked to punch holes in the wall and leave piles of garbage around the house so I had them leave. I'm pretty sure that they think I'm a parasite since they decided to pour concrete down the toilet.

I know there are bad landlords out there. A lot of them. Especially those with tons of tenants who have property managers who don't care about anything other than collecting the check, but there are good ones out there.
We've been down this road in another thread. Debating this nonsense with Raskolnikov won't help, just laugh it off.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,776
There is no right answer to this question. The US is fucking huge. People who want to live in a single family home should be able to do so, AND affordable multi-use urban planning should be implemented in areas where housing costs have gotten out of control and space is limited.

State/city ordinances are the way to go imo, despite the challenges.
 

Burt

Fight Sephiroth or end video games
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,893
But the debate also raises larger questions about single-family homes: What is their value in this current political moment? And is it immoral for us to keep building them?
The functional ends of the argument against single-family housing are the same as soft-banning meat: it will create a luxury to be afforded glibly by the rich, while the majority rest of us get to live marginally worse lives. The negatives of single family housing -- generally speaking, wasteful suburban sprawl -- are absolutely legitimate, but they're things that can be mitigated by better planning, infrastructure, and social services. Which (surprise!) are the things the wealthy don't want to contribute to or permit investment in. Better to just shovel everyone into shoeboxes while they embezzle money meant for burying power lines.

If you want a yard, you should be able to have a yard. In America at least, there's plenty of room. Coastal California is not a legitimate basis for an argument either for or against single-family housing. I mean, I moved to Charlotte recently, and it's like... the second biggest city in the south?

(New Orleans is kind of it's own coastal thing, OP)

And it's about a third of a city. Coming from Philadelphia, it still amazes me that the housing density like two miles from uptown is comparable to ten+ miles outside of Philly. Within the 485 loop, inside of which it's basically acceptable to say you're "from Charlotte" instead of "outside Charlotte", there are stretches of Bucks-County-esque-M.-Night-Shymylan's-Signs-ass nothing.

The article in the OP said:
Younger people drive less, hold off from marriage or child-rearing until later in life, and suffer from an inability to afford soaring home prices around the country—all of which makes the single-family home with the white picket fence an even more distant reality.
Arguing against single-family housing is like saying that the houses are the problem for being out of sync with the economic realities young people are living in, instead of the arguing that the economic realities in which young people are living are unjust and holding them back from getting their own house.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,218
If someone owns land and wants to build a single-family home on it, with their money, go for it. Cities have zoning restrictions that guide the construction that can go up in a particular neighborhood. Those are enough.



I remember this wonderful little gem. Never change, Resetera.
I’ve been trying to sell my house for 6 months and became a parasite today...
Lol there was also a guy in the last thread about landlords saying grocery store owners hold poor people hostage in exchange for food, good times
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Let’s start with making it legal to build apartment buildings everywhere and see how that goes.
 

Swig

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,310
It's selfish, but I would hate being forced to live in a multi unit building. I live in a suburb right now and am looking at hopefully buying a few acres of land and not having neighbors in the future. Plus I have hobbies that don't jive well with multi unit buildings, due to space they take up and noise. My neighbors would hate me.

That said, I want to make it as green as possible... solar for power, maybe geothermal. Anything that can help.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,170
New York
Yes. Yes we should. We should be building stores and schools closer to them and other location and supporting mass transit.

It's public transportation that we need to push.

State-provided housing, or at the very least home rentals with state oversight has always sounded like a good solution to me. Landlords are parasites, so anything to be done that loosens their grip on the working class sounds good to me.
No thanks. I'm not a fan of the great leap forward.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
It's selfish, but I would hate being forced to live in a multi unit building. I live in a suburb right now and am looking at hopefully buying a few acres of land and not having neighbors in the future. Plus I have hobbies that don't jive well with multi unit buildings, due to space they take up and noise. My neighbors would hate me.

That said, I want to make it as green as possible... solar for power, maybe geothermal. Anything that can help.
Not to pick on you, but this kind of sums up the problem. People are willing to do anything to improve their climate footprint except for anything they don’t want to do.
 
Oct 27, 2017
27,140
Seattle
You have challenges in rural areas/areas with no sewer access, can't build too many multi unit dwellings there. Although our area is not rural per se, its in an area difficult to build sewer lines, because of that fact, we don't have multi-unit dwellings or 12 single family homes on a postage stamp.
 

Goldenroad

Right Here Right Meow
Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,619
MAYBE not in certain parts of California or somewhere like Vancouver BC, but most of the world is not so densely populated that single family dwellings create any real housing issues.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,138
Pacifica, CA
Depends on the area. I don't see a reason to not build single-family homes in suburban and rural areas. That said, I wish we could get away from everything being centralized in such a way that encourages people to pile into one area. It'd be nice if things were more spread out while still being optimized for walking.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,095
Dallas, TX
Yes. Yes we should. We should be building stores and schools closer to them and other location and supporting mass transit.

It's public transportation that we need to push.



No thanks. I'm not a fan of the great leap forward.
The problem is that when you have large-lot, single-family housing, the number of people needed to make, say, a bus stop viable, are too spread out to all be willing to walk to that bus stop. Public transport requires density to work well enough that people are willing to give up their cars.

That said, I’d never say single-family housing should be banned. But single-family exclusive zoning definitely should be. If there’s enough demand to live in a place to support denser building, that demand should be channeled into denser building instead of just increasing the land value of the single-family home owner who is legally protected from having any new development around them.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,979
We should be building a lot more high density apartments and condos, but a lot of people (most people?) hate living that way. So densely packed SFH with small yards might be the way to go in most places outside of big cities. Impervious surfaces are ruining what little natural beauty is left, especially on the east coast
 

Biggersmaller

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,967
Minneapolis
I love the 4br/4ba/3 car suburban home I bought new. I would move into a hip urban apartment that could comfortably fit my family of 4 if I could afford it.
 

Conal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,245
Every family deserves a home. Lets start with the millions of empty ones though
 

Brandson

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,008
A few thoughts... I personally think that trying to find ways to cram more people in the same space is not an ideal solution. Building density is expensive, bad for the environment, and puts all kinds of stresses on cities and the people who live there. It's important when increasing density, to also have other core infrastructure get built too, but this doesn't always happen. If you build a ton of condos, you need to increase sewer capacity and build a ton more schools. At least in Toronto, this never happens, so neighbourhoods of increasing density have to send their kids on buses to schools in less populated neighbourhoods because the nearby schools are all over capacity already. You also have to be careful with overbuilding that property values don't go sky high, making it unprofitable to run any business that isn't a large chain grocery store, pharmacy, bank, or coffee shop. Shops that enhance neighbourhoods go away when towers come in. Deliberate, careful growth is fine, but in many places developers just build whatever they want to make money, and consequences be damned.

An option that I think should be explored more is finding ways for people to have the jobs that they want, and are trained for, but not have to live in or commute to expensive, big cities. Every country needs a national telecommuting strategy. Forcing everyone to be in the same place at the same time every day will hopefully become an antiquated idea in my lifetime.
 

tangeu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,325
Where would I put my chicken coop or great danes if I was crammed into a tiny apartment in a big city? That's a real nightmare scenario, I saved my whole life to not have connected neighbors and have wide open spaces out here in the middle of nowhere. Heck, I'm currently saving right now to become even more isolated.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,241
Large urban areas? I could probably convinced it made sense. The remaining like 99% of the land area in the US? Absolutely not.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
If someone owns land and wants to build a single-family home on it, with their money, go for it. Cities have zoning restrictions that guide the construction that can go up in a particular neighborhood. Those are enough.
...
I remember this wonderful little gem. Never change, Resetera.
This is such a perfect encapsulation of the mentality that is directly responsible for the housing price situation in urban California.

Leave it to the city zoning restrictions, which of course are set by the city government, where policy is almost always captive to the influence of NIMBY property owners, who vote against development to protect their investment. Unsurprisingly, the outcome is not enough housing and a class of landlords who profit handsomely from soaring rents.

Rent-seeking is the very definition of being an economic parasite, and it's obviously been the outcome of the thing you're advocating.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
Many people scrape and save so they can escape from densely packed urban areas to enjoy having a home and yard to themselves.

I own a single family home now (albeit a century old one in a minor city) but my wife and I are saving to buy land and build a modern home in a nearby semi-rural area.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,776
I also refute the idea that living in a SFH by definition means you have a larger carbon footprint. Owning a home means the ability to go near carbon neutral if desired, through solar, battery backup and electric cars. I can't install solar at my apt, nor can I own an electric car as I don't have the ability to charge at home.

And from a food perspective, having a garden and/or small farm is as carbon neutral as you can get.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,102
I would never be happy in an apartment or condo, I live having a yard and not having to listen to my neighbors above, below or next to me. I like being able to play music without having to worry if it is too loud or if my pets are being to loud. My husband and I have done everything we can to avoid every living in an apartment/condo. I like my single family house. '

One day, when we don't have to work or if we someday win the lotto, I'd love to build a house on acreage and have a hobby farm full of rescue animals. The less people around the better.
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,128
MAYBE not in certain parts of California or somewhere like Vancouver BC, but most of the world is not so densely populated that single family dwellings create any real housing issues.
Yeah the problem isn't single family homes, it's legacy single family homes in areas that are seeing economic growth and thus increased need for housing.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
17,581
There is still explosive population growth. Austin suburbs have grown 10x in the last 20 years while Austin proper has also increased by 2x.
I'm not talking about places with that kind of growth where of course substantial new construction will be necessary. The majority of US cities are stagnant or declining in population and there are more effectively uninhabited residential buildings now than there has been in decades. It doesn't make sense to make new buildings a policy priority when we already have tons of buildings that aren't operating anywhere near their full capacity
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,639
There are huge environmental issues with new construction of any kind, including high efficiency / dense housing.

From an environmental and climate change mitigation perspective, the problem to solve is not of what kind of housing / construction / whatever, as utilizing higher efficiency systems is nowhere near enough to even put a dent in the problem of climate change.

It is more the paradigms around construction and living in general that require a paradigm shift.

That is only going to happen when the following things happen first to enable it:

-Power generation switches to a a strict portfolio of Gen IV+ Nuclear and Renewables.
-Newer, lower-CO2-emitting forms of concrete are utilized (or an alternative material for constructing foundations, etc. is found)
-Vehicles are strictly a mix of EVs and vehicles with ICEs that utilize only synthesized non-fossil fuels / biofuels.
-Building systems (electrical, heating, cooling, plumbing (hot water), etc.) only rely on sustainably-generated electricity from the aforementioned power generation methods.

At that point it won't matter so much what kind of buildings we build. However, from a quality of life and urban planning perspective, denser living, where people work, play, and live in the same spaces, will always yield happier people who better utilize their time.
 

amon37

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,798
I would never be happy in an apartment or condo, I live having a yard and not having to listen to my neighbors above, below or next to me. I like being able to play music without having to worry if it is too loud or if my pets are being to loud. My husband and I have done everything we can to avoid every living in an apartment/condo. I like my single family house. '

One day, when we don't have to work or if we someday win the lotto, I'd love to build a house on acreage and have a hobby farm full of rescue animals. The less people around the better.
Yep I finally moved into a single family home after a condo and numerous apartments and am glad the have my own space, my own garage, and my own yard.
 

Deleted member 9317

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,451
New York
A lot of populated cities are forcing the developers to diversify and build small/high-rise condos in areas where they mostly make homes.