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nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,128
Yes it can, but he was asking if it would be 2.23 GHZ all the time, which it isn't, it's pretty clear what a variable frequency means. The GitHub leak was correct apart from that, so it's easy to assume that the clock speed is a late change to counter the XSX 12.155 TFLOPS GPU.

This doesn't make sense. The system they have in place is pretty clever. Its not just going to be thrown in at the last minute. Most people on here were saying they couldnt even hit 2ghz and they have a system which effectively goes beyond that. This is a well thought out system. The differences vs the XSX is that they have placed greater emphasis on SSD and are probably going to be better on price.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
Can't find numbers I trust right now, but I recall the 360 outselling the PS3 drastically in the states. Like double digit millions more.



The specs will translate. No one has any doubt about that. The only legit question is how big the gap will be. Hopefully it is close, but PS5 is undeniably weaker.
In the first years, 360 was absolutely the market leader. But over their lifetimes ps3 prevailed even in the states. Mostly attributed to games I believe.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,205
Yes it can, but he was asking if it would be 2.23 GHZ all the time, which it isn't, it's pretty clear what a variable frequency means. The Github leak was correct apart from that, so it's easy to assume that the clock speed is a late change to counter the XSX 12.155 TFLOPS GPU.

I still can't believe they actually went with 36 CUs. And yes they definitely did last minute overclocking so the gap would not look so bad. I give up on Sony making a beast console. They are scared to death of a higher price which is why I think it will be $399.
 

Raonak

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,170
So all in all, this is the smallest gap we've ever seen between ps and xbox.

Cant believe we still have to wait 7ish months.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
No it's not

16% vs close to 40%

And this time around the 16% weaker console has the better memory architecture, unlike PS4 which had better memory and TFlops
Does bandwidth not matter?
No no... why are people saying stuff like this?
Reverse of 2013. Higher clocks late in the day helped Microsoft somewhat close the gap, but they were limited by bandwidth.
Then we shall see how good their efforts were at striking a proper balance with their approach relative to whatever price they're charging for this box :)
The DF article literally states that they are building on the gains they made when it came to profiling how developers make games. How Microsoft is taking off tasks from the CPU so that there is more cores available to games, and how compression works at SSD level.

Not to mention that Phil Spencer has been talking about balance for a long time. These companies have different philosophies, Sony chose a smaller GPU an way faster SSD (and it is not going to be cheap), Microsoft chose a more expensive GPU and modest SSD speed.
 

Kalasai

Member
Jan 16, 2018
900
France
No no... why are people saying stuff like this?
Because cerny said and DF too. I think he know the subject.

" Performance is noticeably different, because 'teraflops' is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units - and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher. At 33 per cent higher frequency, rasterisation goes 33 per cent faster, processing the command buffer goes that much faster, the L1 and L2 caches have that much higher bandwidth, and so on,"

And for the speed. The 2.23ghz is the cap and the typical speed.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I wonder how long we're going to fight about specs. It seems that if you're prioritizing performance of 3rd party games:
  • If you value ray tracing, get an X
  • If you value load times, get a PS5
Everything else is muddy right now. PS5 might be capable of better draw distances and loading in textures with fast travel. Xbox might be better at frame rates.

But....we don't know within these new console balances where the sweet spots for CPU or IO speeds are, where there's diminishing returns or if any advantages are offset by bottlenecks or vice versa.

If you already know what ecosystem you prefer.....they're both great consoles. Multiplats will be largely close enough. Exclusives will be the results of talent, time, manpower and tools more than specs.
 

Unchaotisch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
32
In the first years, 360 was absolutely the market leader. But over their lifetimes ps3 prevailed even in the states. Mostly attributed to games I believe.

Nah, the PS3 did very well globally, but in the US it was crushed by the 360. It really wasn't close at all.

consolewar1.png
 

DidactBRHU3

Member
Oct 17, 2019
3,000
Fortaleza - Ceará
This doesn't make sense. The system they have in place is pretty clever. Its not just going to be thrown in at the last minute. Most people on here were saying they couldnt even hit 2ghz and they have a system which effectively goes beyond that. This is a well thought out system. The differences vs the XSX is that they have placed greater emphasis on SSD and are probably going to be better on price.
Clock speeds are one of the few things that can change this late in development, the cooling solution to counter those high clock speeds influences the final form factor, that is the reason we haven't seen the box yet.
 

Deleted member 8784

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,502
I really wonder what their arguments will be once the DF comparisons start coming up, and the differences are negligible or null.

In a perfect world we'd ban all arguments about these specs precisely until Digital Foundry start doing some work on the actual games.

The people in the speculation thread (no way Github is true, Sony won't push those clock speeds, that's bad design!) are the same people telling me that actually, the high clock speeds are actually a GOOD thing now. It really just cements that we don't know what we're talking about enough to actually have a meaningful argument about it. (or we're arguing with console warz agenda's, and that fucking sucks, we're grown adults stop that shit right now)

Maybe the clock speeds are advantageous - it'll only be when we actually see some stats that we'll know for sure.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,763
The DF article literally states that they are building on the gains they made when it came to profiling how developers make games. How Microsoft is taking off tasks from the CPU so that there is more cores available to games, and how compression works at SSD level.

Not to mention that Phil Spencer has been talking about balance for a long time. These companies have different philosophies, Sony chose a smaller GPU an way faster SSD (and it is not going to be cheap), Microsoft chose a more expensive GPU and modest SSD speed.

... OK?

You do realize when I said, "My thoughts on the PS5 are that Sony's aiming to build a very well balanced console with as few bottlenecks as possible" that I wasn't talking about it in relation to the XSX, right? I was talking about the PS5 on its own merits there, hence why my second paragraph began with, "In comparison with the XSX..."
 

Merc

Member
Jun 10, 2018
1,254
Yes, but it was released a whole year later.



The power differential between the CPU and GPU's of both machines is so small, that finding differences in games will be difficult.

2 teraflops is not small. If you were buying a GPU today, there is a substantial meaningful difference between buying a 7 TF card over 9 TF, or a 8 TF card over a 10 TF card, a 9 TF card over a 11 TF card, and so on.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,094
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
If there is one particular point where both machines will outshine the other.. is it:

PS5 - SSD speeds...loading times will be faster here with all its implications..

XSX - There is a definitive CU advantage here (52 vs 36) and Raytracing will benefit more from this difference.

the efficiency of each system in other areas is still up discussion but MS has been more open about software solutions to optimise every part of the system.
 

Drain You

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,986
Connecticut
The amount of uninformed takes I'm seeing in this thread is interesting if nothing else.

Unchaotisch Thanks for that chart, while I always thought that was the ranking in the US. I am mostly surprised to see how small of a gap between the Wii and 360 there was. Expected 360 to be a quite a bit farther behind.
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
I wonder how long we're going to fight about specs. It seems that if you're prioritizing performance of 3rd party games:
  • If you value ray tracing, get an X
  • If you value load times, get a PS5
Everything else is muddy right now...
Hmm, do we have a clear idea of the RT performance of both systems? As DF mentioned, RT hardware is very important, but GPU power is important as well, so it would make sense that the XSX has the advantage. But do we have a clear idea on that? I haven't seen any actual numbers on RT hardware, for example.
 

Bunzy

Banned
Nov 1, 2018
2,205
so can we look at a regular amd 5700 and overclock it to 2.23ghz and basically see performance we will get worse case if this thing doesn't have most of rdna 2 efficiency?

seems like the ps5 should perform a little under a 5700xt that's overclocked and I am watching those beat out 2080 supers on YouTube. If it is truly rdna 2 then it will only be better
 
Jan 15, 2018
191
im not tech person myself, but a buddy of mine claims he is, and says the ps5 might actually be better and more powerful. Can someone let me know if he is right or wrong?

the IO throughput is so much higher than the Xbox that everything is going to load faster on the PS5. The RAM is also clocked higher so assets will load faster on PS5. The GPU runs at a higher frequency so the graphics calculations will be much faster on PS5. And the CPU frequency difference is .3 GHz, which is basically nothing.

Does that above make the ps5 more powerful?
No you are incorrect on some of what you said. First your buddy isnt giving you accurate info. The i/o peak speed is higher on the playstation, but that is only one part of the entire graphics pipeline.

The gpu and cpu are slower on playstation. MS put more custom work into the gpu and packed more CU's per clock. On paper the gpu difference is at least 30% in favour of xbox. Add in the custom features like variable rate shading and textures only loading what is visible, then it gives a greater edge to xbox.

Even with a faster i/o speed its not a sustained performance level on the ps5. So yeah it will load faster in some cases, but only if the other components aren't busy. Also you only get the benefit of peak speed if you are loading large data reads. If you are reading many small files, the speed of nvme drops off from peak
 

Zephy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,170
Am I wrong in assuming that games will be designed around both Xbox' slower data streaming and PS5's slower processors ? Lowest common denominator basically.

Or maybe once again most devs will choose a "leading" platform and games will be better optimized for it regardless of specs differences...?
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Hmm, do we have a clear idea of the RT performance of both systems? As DF mentioned, RT hardware is very important, but GPU power is important as well, so it would make sense that the XSX has the advantage. But do we have a clear idea on that? I haven't seen any actual numbers on RT hardware, for example.

Hardware based RT performance is reliant on the CUs. Xbox has a bunch more of those. I believe this is straight forward. However you're right....we haven't seen anything concrete. Fact that Cerny didn't talk about it was somewhat telling though.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,043
Kinda made sense we got some many leaks on the PS5 TF count. Because sources probably heard differently. One of the minimum and one on the maximum.

 

Deleted member 29857

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
602
Some weird design choiches here.

The PS5 SSD feels like the Esram
situation where the devs really need to optimise for it, or they will look at standard PC/XSX configuration and go with that.

The whole variable speed thing feels like every PS5 will have kind of dynamic resolution either prioritizing 60fps or stable 4K. I'm not even taking ray tracing in account.

The one that I'm most interested in is BC. I've sold my PS4 halfway in the generation and missed out on a lot of exclusives which I've planned to play on PS5. It's disappointing to hear it's not ready yet. Let's see.
 

Hockeymac18

Member
Nov 14, 2017
832
In a perfect world we'd ban all arguments about these specs precisely until Digital Foundry start doing some work on the actual games.

The people in the speculation thread (no way Github is true, Sony won't push those clock speeds, that's bad design!) are the same people telling me that actually, the high clock speeds are actually a GOOD thing now. It really just cements that we don't know what we're talking about enough to actually have a meaningful argument about it. (or we're arguing with console warz agenda's, and that fucking sucks, we're grown adults stop that shit right now)

Maybe the clock speeds are advantageous - it'll only be when we actually see some stats that we'll know for sure.
Some of the biggest console warriors I've ever met are grown ass adults with families and mortgages. When I read these comments on the internet, I like to hope they're being made by a 13 year old - but experience tells me that it may be coming from someone much older.

I guess many of us who are older now grew up with it from the Sega vs Nintendo days... Old habits are hard to break?
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,242
Europe
Am I wrong in assuming that games will be designed around both Xbox' slower data streaming and PS5's slower processors ? Lowest common denominator basically.

Or maybe once again most devs will choose a "leading" platform and games will be better optimized for it regardless of specs differences...?
You can argue this for every generation :)

But, in reality, a lot of games now have scaling build in resulting in better framerates, higher resolutions and more features on the more powerful system. But yeah, some very specific consoles features might be ignored by third parties... because it would just make their porting a lot harder.
 
Jan 15, 2018
191
So all in all, this is the smallest gap we've ever seen between ps and xbox.

Cant believe we still have to wait 7ish months.
this this gap is bigger then it was between ps4 and xbox one. Im not sure what you are talking about.

Previous gen sony had more CUs packed into the gpu because ms wanted embedded memory. Sony went with faster ram while xbox had the cpu clocked higher. The difference was 1080p vs 720p in most cases.

This time these differences will result in more visual differences with ray tracing and other features that are exclusive to xsx.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,650
Since i don't give a shit about 3rd Platform except for Square Enix Games, i couldn't be happier with the PS5. I much prefer having a console that gives the ability to do something special ( albeit perhaps only Exclusives will use it ).

What i hear from devs even hear sounds absolutely amazing.
 

Fiddler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
380
After watching the DF video I was under the assumption that this was all based on power consumption and that the usage of the GPU and the CPU at any given time could affect this. So if the CPU was under a lot of strain then it could draw more power which would cause the GPU to down clock.

The console has a power budget where it looks at the actual workload it has to do and clocks it´s components accordingly. Developers of course will use that power budget to the max to get the best performance. But if in a specific moment that maximum power budget defined by the system itself would get exceeded, as he said when the worst-case game arrives, the Gpu which draws the most power and by that produces the bulk of thermal energy will get clocked down. So the system never draws more power than what is defined as the maximum.
It is a new approach for thermal designs in consoles, and we´ll have to see what their cooling solution is and how good it works to actually determine how good that approach is. It´s certainly interesting and seemingly allows Sony to go crazy on Gpu clock speeds and spare almost 50% on Gpu die size compared to the XSX, which most likely will make the console a fair bit cheaper to build than the XSX.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Am I wrong in assuming that games will be designed around both Xbox' slower data streaming and PS5's slower processors ? Lowest common denominator basically.

Or maybe once again most devs will choose a "leading" platform and games will be better optimized for it regardless of specs differences...?

A little bit. Devs won't make design decisions around eccentric features. If the gameplay elements scale and theres easy wins, devs will take advantage of better hardware like they did this gen and continue to do on PC.

Things like lighting, textures, frame rates and resolution scale. Xbox should have clear advantage on lighting...but that will tax the system heavily against having an advantage in much else at the same time. If Sony has devs target lower end lighting, they could have an advantage in other areas.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
this this gap is bigger then it was between ps4 and xbox one

It's not. And you know full well it's not. I honestly don't know why you keep playing like this.

Unless you somehow believe that a 28% difference is lower than a 15% difference.

The user you quoted is right. And you know it.

And the differences between PS4 and XBox One was from 1080p to 900p most of the time. Not 720p.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
Hopefully this doesn't turn into a I can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and the crushed blacks look better arguments that we had at the start of this gen.
 

Bunzy

Banned
Nov 1, 2018
2,205
The only thing I'm nervous about is that this card doesn't really have the rdna feature set besides ray tracing or the per watt performance efficiency over rdna 1.

i hope this isn't another PS4 pro situation with the pro being a Polaris card with a couple Vega features racked on.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,043
Sony did a smart thing tho with the variable frequency as people will always use the highest number they can get. Even if it doesnt always hit it.
 

Emick81

Member
Jan 17, 2018
973
Assets still have to be rendered, which is done by GPU hardware. This is where being able to stream in massive amounts of assets at unbelievable speeds may actually be bottlenecked by actually having to render them in the game world with a slower GPU. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that might work. On the other hand will the Series X possibly not be able to take full advantage of its GPU because it can't stream assets in fast enough? Two very different takes on this..
This is exactly what I was thinking too. Drawdistance options were always related to the GPU not being able to render fast enough. That is why certain games on weak hardware have a lot of pop in like grass a few meters ahead of the player.

It seems against logic.
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
If I didn't have a PC as my platform of choice going for the xbox would be a no brainer for me at this point. But thanks to Microsofts policy on exclusives all coming to PC I'll be getting the PS5.

Looking forward to seeing the difference visually once we get our hands on these - I think people are seriously underestimating the impact RT will have on the xbox versions of games.
 

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,816
Norway but living in France
On paper there's a 16% TF difference between PS5 and XsX (there was a 40% TF difference between PS4 and XBO).

But what's interesting is Sony's "there's a lot to be said about faster" high-frequency approach as it lets the PS5 punch above its TF number:
People look to the final PS5 TF number but I still feel Cerny's point is being overlooked:

H1aFHZJiLEYxmSxkU_23HktouArNAOy--c_A3iU1ILpr3VKFyVxXSf7-_QQ678VslVJ0yx8AEEuGcGh7V1JeqUaLv0UBLuJ-sledlgOjKB8TdywgtpJBZSr8_phBGXx5Smn0lGKj-KlZf9uQG0y5-ZqnDGLOIR8XsfMzu2PCy00mHOaaOIX9HgFd_wMdxixOe0h3xghry-yj5pdMw0oj-Tcl32EMcHkTB1qUGD7Zd5Jl_xAYqMSkyYq2emK1ltzOgz6vjF0tKMbOuy8GJ9-vu8NKt67RHKT5h-_eTX9T_0QqHIJEn-qgZNDuFHzGWRJUqoxa4AbvDjCe8Jo056ImvgbWxXXFURZaFkJzvXeFHc77rMTNpiKJMeo-ay6vbVY331COxGZSBBkB8OPyURgoRo_BRLQTVV4k6uHTXzQb6QhO_q5Bj9Z7F8Q1YSwdX7HCLoX8MaMmpgajm2ctzLuSC2IhKOHJyFTxzKnIH3tqqXtdB3kncAarn0x0GUTnKgYm1DuUl96I_bIEClTT6UlYof5csVZw4nVeYHazT9flsHiKjfZfout93MecH02K7qzA33njCrgw1YehuHT_3tCX934t7seraVo-T5LBqzsNnDxDtQFoHWHNBhxZDNiRBUqSmAfoBzOTVdO3gzT8kmu0mXs99OrvpDAt6s0hHriS-pO8mvN60mgj4OBkLc0PPSWJMJ_zK7SXiXg2BVY5olb-A5m54JoT1WLahhGzCIRkPXOlmJBqFYO0lPec=w600-h190-no


Both of the configurations above have the same TF on a comparison sheet but one is actually a third faster in most aspects and is notably more real-word performent (TF is only applicable to one part of the GPU while frequency affects plenty). As he pointed out, if you can handle the extra power and cooling needs then there's a lot to be said about being faster (it's also easier to fill 36CU's worth of work than 48CU's).

Real world performance benchmarking will be really interesting with the PS5.
 
Jan 15, 2018
191
It's not. And you know full well it's not. I honestly don't know why you keep playing like this.

Unless you somehow believe that a 28% difference is lower than a 15% difference.

The user you quoted is right. And you know it.

And the differences between PS4 and XBox One was from 1080p to 900p most of the time. Not 720p.
You are clearly wrong and falling for peak performance numbers that sony put out. No console operates at peak performance all the time. The numbers for xsx are "sustained". You really need to watch the df video and listen to what they are saying.. The gap is bigger the it was last gen. Clearly bigger.
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
Sony did a smart thing tho with the variable frequency as people will always use the highest number they can get. Even if it doesnt always hit it.

Dumb question, but isn't that's the cause with all of these TFLOP figures? I always thought it was peak TFLOPS and the GPUs did not always sustain it.
Still, the wording on variable frequency obviously means that it changes more than previous setups?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
You are clearly wrong and falling for peak performance numbers that sony put out. No console operates at peak performance all the time. The numbers for xsx are "sustained". You really need to watch the df video and listen to what they are saying.. The gap is bigger the it was last gen. Clearly bigger.

Ok, so you are trolling. Several other people have already corrected you, but not wasting my time anymore.
 

Raonak

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,170
this this gap is bigger then it was between ps4 and xbox one. Im not sure what you are talking about.

Previous gen sony had more CUs packed into the gpu because ms wanted embedded memory. Sony went with faster ram while xbox had the cpu clocked higher. The difference was 1080p vs 720p in most cases
Im not sure what you are talking about.

PS4 had substantially faster RAM, which is where X1's embedded memory was needed to keep up.
PS4 had 1.8tfs vs X1's 1.2, which is a 50% increase.
That's why there was a 1080p vs 900p difference.
 

Fiddler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
380
You are clearly wrong and falling for peak performance numbers that sony put out. No console operates at peak performance all the time. The numbers for xsx are "sustained". You really need to watch the df video and listen to what they are saying.. The gap is bigger the it was last gen. Clearly bigger.

Don´t you contradict yourself? First you say no console operates at peak performance all the time and yet you claim that the XSX does? Either both do or don´t.

Also you don´t clock your Gpu that high without extensive testing, it´s clearly not some last minute approach by sony to counter XSX. The whole cooling system has to be designed around that.