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mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
It is PRT, or more accurately PRT+ which appears to be a feature on multiple GPU's and is also coming to Windows for selected GPU's.

github.com

DirectX-Specs/d3d/SamplerFeedback.md at master · microsoft/DirectX-Specs

Engineering specs for DirectX features. Contribute to microsoft/DirectX-Specs development by creating an account on GitHub.

I'd expect PS5 to have the necessary hardware for this as well.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,708
About those verge comments... Random insiders on the internet is how we ended up with 13.3TF PS5s. Just saying.

Exactly. I don't think that Verge commenter is credible at all.

They liken the PS5 having different performance profiles to being "somewhat similar" to the development challenges of the PS3 vs. the 360, which makes absolutely no sense. The PS5 and XSX are far, far more similar than those two machines were.

They also talk about how Sony "rushed" to have their ex-GDC presentation to counter the Microsoft DF infodump, which also makes no sense at all. You can't prepare a presentation in two days, come on. It was a GDC-style presentation that was clearly originally intended for GDC.

Throw in...questionable claims about how "Sony is not showing off the PS5 because it has thermal problems" and a really weird affinity for Microsoft's proprietary drives (it's like bringing over your gamecube memory card to a buddy's house, apparently?) and they don't exactly seem to be the most impartial source. Why are we even discussing them at all, again?
 

horkrux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,736
It should, but if you compare say the higher clocked RX 580 to the XBX's GPU, which has 4 more CU's & some other minor improvements, it's a case by case basis in which game will play faster, it seems half the time the X beats the 580 no matter how much higher you clock the 580.
Of course this is comparing a PC to a Console, but i think others like Digital Foundry would agree in some games SX's compute potential is going to give it a big advantage over PS5.

but then again there's Vega 56/64, where overclocking the 56 brought you rather close to the 64. apparantly because some games didn't scale well with CUs?
makes me wonder.
 

Morgan J

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,685
Smaller.

I was actually thinking the opposite. While I think it looks fine, and would have no problem putting it on my desk, I would not know where to put it in my living room setup without it standing out too much. I want a clean TV setup with everything in their own compartiment. I think alot of people feel the same. Luckily I game more often at my desk than I do in the living room.

That said i'm curious about the form factor of the PS5 and if it's cooling solution allows for it to be put in a compartiment.
Oh yeah it definitely depends on how you have decorated your home, colours etc so I understand you.
 

lunanto

Banned
Dec 1, 2017
7,648
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,812
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.

Difference between a console that sold 100 million and 40. Don't take it personally, it's just the reality.

All MS needs right now is more 1st party games. Once they deliver that, they win in everything. So sit tight and relax.
 

Morgan J

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,685
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.
They are trying something new, and hopefully there might come new type of games or something. And popularity .
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,708
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.

I don't see anyone saying XSX is a piece of shit? I think it's just that more people are excited for PS5 because more people have PS4s.

That's why Microsoft went first. They had to announce when they did to try to build buzz and get people to stop thinking about PlayStation as the default option. They're the challenger brand.

Both machines are great. People can be excited for one without it being a slight toward the other.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,057
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.
Because we are getting XSX news for a while now. PS5 news finally dropped after long silence.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,057
Maybe I wasn´t paying attention... but I don´t remember that response from devs and media in general when the specs for XSX were revealed.
It got spread out kinda over all the different announcements. We kinda "knew" the XSX was gonna be powerful etc.
Also the word is getting out fine. That Evans vid of the Series X is at 6m views for example.
 

Nos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
207
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.
You're overreacting. It's probably because a lot of devs care more about I/O than teraflops.
The XSX is still 15% more capable regarding the GPU so you can relax.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,650
Maybe I wasn´t paying attention... but I don´t remember that response from devs and media in general when the specs for XSX were revealed.

Think the reason could also be that people just looked at numbers and spouted nonsense that the PS5 is weak. You didn't have that with XBOX numbers since even on Paper the xbox is a monster. SO devs chimed in and gave there input to why the PS5 is also a monster.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
All this bantering about the specs and I think we can safely say:
- Xbox has a ray tracing advantage
- Playstation a loading time advantage

Bet most other differences won't be noticeable to the naked eye.

My big and only real concern for either console is PS5's heat and cooling. Those frequencies make me nervous. Definitely getting insurance on my PS5.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Think the reason could also be that people just looked at numbers and spouted nonsense that the PS5 is weak. You didn't have that with XBOX numbers since even on Paper the xbox is a monster. SO devs chimed in and gave there input to why the PS5 is also a monster.

They also seem further ahead in tools. I'm not sure how devs can be dancing in the streets about Xbox development when the tools are coming in hot.

I/O speeds to remove decompression bottlenecks also make development easier. We already saw the tweet that the Xbox answer isn't ready yet.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
My big and only real concern for either console is PS5's heat and cooling.
That's actually the thing I'm least concerned about with their design, since they have a perfectly fixed load they always have to deal with from a design perspective, rather than having to wonder what games might actually get it up to one day (RDR2, I'm looking at you) and guessing wrong.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
All this bantering about the specs and I think we can safely say:
- Xbox has a ray tracing advantage
- Playstation a loading time advantage

Bet most other differences won't be noticeable to the naked eye.

My big and only real concern for either console is PS5's heat and cooling. Those frequencies make me nervous. Definitely getting insurance on my PS5.

I am also 100% confident that Xbox Series X multiplatform games (the way into the 90% range of most games that people play of course over time) will provide more consistent frame rates with less drops during heavy gameplay scenarios due to its overall CPU/GPU compute advantage with greater memory bandwidth and no "variable" frequency approach that is definitely going to drop on the PS5 under certain loads as Cerny himself even admitted (next generation games are only going to get more complex visually and with CPU usage now that we have legitimate CPUs on these consoles) and application of greater graphical effects beyond just ray tracing due to the overall GPU compute advantage (without even taking into account the likelihood that the PS5 10.28 TF number is just "paper" spec due to the variable frequency we are still talking about enough of a TF difference at 1.875 to have 1 and 1/2 PS4s contained within in it when you think of it that way, and that is going to provide headroom for upticks in graphical options such as shadows and other things that are present on PCs when you have a higher end GPU available).
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
I think Game Pass + XSX will be a killer deal.
Even more so if/when Lockhart becomes a reality.

As another poster said, all MS need to do now is deliver on 1st party, the most critical element to this.
 

RogerL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
606
To hit the headline speed, it needs to be a sequential read, which means each individual chip needs to hit the 5.5Gb/s mark. So, no, you're incorrect here, the PS5 SSD will inevitably be more expensive than the Series X SSD precisely because they need higher performing NAND.

That is not how this works. That is like saying a wider RAM bus will not give you higher throughput...

Check this data from Phison
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1472...18-pcie-40-ssd-controller-up-to-7-gbs-nvme-14

Note that with doubled channels and same NAND chips you get doubled throughput.
Do also note that Phison has no 12 ch chipset...

SONY will NOT need to use 1200 MT/s NAND chips, they will do really well with 800 MT/s, can almost manage with 667 MT/s,
and there might be a NAND chip maker that does 720 MT/s chips - perfect!

But you wont always get doubled 4k read ops with doubled channels as there are often something else that limits that.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
I am also 100% confident that Xbox Series X multiplatform games (the way into the 90% range of most games that people play of course over time) will provide more consistent frame rates with less drops during heavy gameplay scenarios due to its overall CPU/GPU compute advantage with greater memory bandwidth and no "variable" frequency approach that is definitely going to drop on the PS5 under certain loads as Cerny himself even admitted (next generation games are only going to get more complex visually and with CPU usage now that we have legitimate CPUs on these consoles) and application of greater graphical effects beyond just ray tracing due to the overall GPU compute advantage (without even taking into account the likelihood that the PS5 10.28 TF number is just "paper" spec due to the variable frequency we are still talking about enough of a TF difference at 1.875 to have 1 and 1/2 PS4s contained within in it when you think of it that way, and that is going to provide headroom for upticks in graphical options such as shadows and other things that are present on PCs when you have a higher end GPU available).

Yup I can see game devs pushing graphical effects further if they want. First party are going to go ham like they did for the X1X using higher settings
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
Can't wait for the ps5 pro and Xbox series xx. 24gb of gddr6x, much improved rt performance. I wonder what they might want to push in 3 years after the release.
 

RogerL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
606
I don't want to write 4 posts just to justify my impression. When the consoles fully shipped, I will see if my expectation was right or not.

I agree that SONY has squeezed, but I think they have squeezed out every bit of performance thay can get from a given target prize.
On the other hand it looks like Microsoft has squeezed every bit of performance they can get with current technology and compact form factor.
What is surprising is that the result looks this similar.

Think of it like this, assume that SONY and Microsoft would release another console within three years - what would that be?
Microsoft: there are ALREADY talks about Lockheart - a cheaper console.
SONY: could make a Pro with double the number of CUs, bigger NAND chips (or even more channels?), wider RAM bus with more GDDR6 RAM, ... - a lot more expensive but...

Pricing estimate: XBox One X <? Lockheart < PS5 < System X (< PS5 Pro)
Lets begin with Lockheart and One X.
One X: currently $323
Lockheart: $250..$399
System X: $450..$599
PS5 is almost as performant as System X in every area, superior in some, $50 lower would be enough
PS5: $399..$549
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,551
Console warriors on both sides of the fence are running rampant across the interwebs. It'll calm down in the coming days but debate will keep going on and on until both systems are out and side by side comparisons can be done by a third party like DF. Hell, even after that I'm confident that some people will debate and interpret the results to suit whatever their agenda is.

It's been a fun week so far, now we just sit back and wait for the next info dump.
Exactly so. This whole thread is downplaying one console or the others specs. It won't matter once we start getting 3rd party and direct comparisons can be made. Even then there will be plenty who downplay the results because it doesn't favor their console
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,793
Okay, so the GPU in the Series X is obviously and clearly superior, no question. But people keep saying the CPU is also significantly more powerful? Am I missing something here? That 3.8 number for Xbox is without hyperthreading/SMT, otherwise the CPU runs at 3.6. So that leaves a 100MHz difference against the PS5's 3.5GHz CPU, which is basically nothing. Unless people are thinking the PS5 CPU won't run at that speed most of the time?

I suppose it somewhat depends on how low the PS5 CPU can theoretically go. Though I can't imagine it will be more than 200 - 300MHz at most.

All of this guesswork just reaffirms that Sony should have clarified (or rather quantified) how these variable clocks are going to work. It's a mess.
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
7,846
Okay, so the GPU in the Series X is obviously and clearly superior, no question. But people keep saying the CPU is also significantly more powerful? Am I missing something here? That 3.8 number for Xbox is without hyperthreading/SMT, otherwise the CPU runs at 3.6. So that leaves a 100MHz difference against the PS5's 3.5GHz CPU, which is basically nothing. Unless people are thinking the PS5 CPU won't run at that speed most of the time?

I suppose it somewhat depends on how low the PS5 CPU can theoretically go. Though I can't imagine it will be more than 200 - 300MHz at most.

All of this guesswork just reaffirms that Sony should have clarified (or rather quantified) how these variable clocks are going to work. It's a mess.


For 8 core is 3,8Ghz for XSX

For 16 Thread is 3,5Ghz. For PS5

And the CPU of PS5 is variable. I think with 8 core and variables Frequency is more 3,2-3,4.

So yes more than 300Mhz I think.


I hope cerny has well designed their system, because if cooling is bad your whole system is destroyed because of huge loss of performance.
 
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OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Exactly so. This whole thread is downplaying one console or the others specs. It won't matter once we start getting 3rd party and direct comparisons can be made. Even then there will be plenty who downplay the results because it doesn't favor their console

That's the annoying part. The downplaying. At absolute worst, regardless of who's better, these are both massive leaps over the previous console generation. Much bigger, more exciting jumps than we had in 2013. Both are cutting edge in not just hardware but feature sets. One will win the multiplat battles...and very few people will switch their preference based on that winner. In this time of shitty pandemics and quarantines, would be nice to see less anxiety and fighting over a couple of really cool toys.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
For 8 core is 3,8Ghz for XSX

For 16 Thread is 3,5Ghz. For PS5

And the CPU of PS5 is variable. I think with 8 core and variables Frequency is more 3,2-3,4.

So yes more than 300Mhz I think.


I hope cerny has well designed their system, because if cooling is bad your whole system is destroyed because of huge loss of performance.
Throwing out guesses of 3.2-3.4GHz is pretty disingenuous, Cerny stated it should run at 3.5GHz the majority of the time.
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,551
That's the annoying part. The downplaying. At absolute worst, regardless of who's better, these are both massive leaps over the previous console generation. Much bigger, more exciting jumps than we had in 2013. Both are cutting edge in not just hardware but feature sets. One will win the multiplat battles...and very few people will switch their preference based on that winner. In this time of shitty pandemics and quarantines, would be nice to see less anxiety and fighting over a couple of really cool toys.
Yup. Sony's SSD is no joke, it's serious hardware that can't and shouldn't be ignored. Can't wait to see how it changes things for the PS5. XSX on the other hand has beastly CPU and GPU silicone (not that Sony's isn't strong) but 52 CU's (even if you ignore the 12.2 Teraflops) and 3.8 GHz processor is God tier next to how this gen hardware launched.

I imagine if the specs were flipped we'd see the same arguments with the posters making them flipped. People should be happy neither of them screwed up. I do feel like the 3rd party support for switch is about to get worse as next gen spools up.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,990
I think some forget this thread still exists.

Should be a good place to discuss the similarities and differences, instead of the official threads.
 

Rex1157

Banned
Nov 22, 2017
1,429
I´m genuinely curious to know why there seems to be such a positive buzz and support for PS5 in the media from devs and journalists, as if XSX was a piece of shit. Nobody talks about it. I don´t get it.
I've seen the opposite actually. People constantly claiming that Sony is lying about the 10.3 TF flights and believing the rumor about ps5 supposedly being prone to overheating.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
XSX got great press + Gamepass + BC hype. PS5 is starting to get good press after the general TF disappointment when the I/O magic started to get traction. The old place and this place are called Sonygaf or Sonyera for a reason, and that's because the PS4 its and its exclusives were by far more popular in every measurable capacity. MS has a lot of promise - which a lot of people seem to be intrigued by - but even more to prove rn. Just seems normal to me. Let me put it this way: I don't see a lot of pejoratives rn but maybe some slanted skepticism or optimism at worst.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,990
Another reminder bump, that this thread still exists.

I don't know much about software development or terminology. But still a question.

Do yall think Unreal Engine 5 will take advantage of what these systems can offer?

UE is seen as a multiplatform engine no?....but lately more and more MS/Sony published games on both sides have used the engine instead of an inhouse engine.

So will Epic take this into consideration when developing the next version? Have tools ready to take advantage of what differentiates these consoles from each other? To entice more first party studios?

Or is it not worth the extra time/money, and Epic just goes with the status quo.

Edit-I'm also curious what Sony San Diego does with development of the MLB The Show franchise, since it will be released on Xbox and Switch in 2021. Would they convert their current engine? or build a new engine that can scale fine for all systems? Or maybe use UE4? 🤷🏾‍♂️
 
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-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
12,613
Another reminder bump, that this thread still exists.

I don't know much about software development or terminology. But still a question.

Do yall think Unreal Engine 5 will take advantage of what these systems can offer?

UE is seen as a multiplatform engine no?....but lately more and more MS/Sony published games on both sides have used the engine instead of an inhouse engine.

So will Epic take this into consideration when developing the next version? Have tools ready to take advantage of what differentiates these consoles from each other? To entice more first party studios?

Or is it not worth the extra time/money, and they let the studios make the most of the engine for their exclusive games.
Can you list some of the games?
Also, does using UE reduce costs?
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
All I can gather from this is that the PS5 may load everything way faster than we're used to, and xboxonexseries (they have to fix this naming shit, it's dumb and confusing) will load things maybe half as fast (still way faster than anyone is used to) but it will look better when it loads. I'm an expert, my uncle had a nintendo.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,990
Can you list some of the games?
Also, does using UE reduce costs?

First to come to mind is Days Gone by Bend Studio/Sony

Déraciné from FromSoftware/Sony Published
Hidden Agenda from SuperMassive/Sony Published

And there's a few more.

Microsoft uses it alot more, with obviously Gears, Crackdown, Everwild, and more

Here's a list.

Edit- I'm not saying that is where Exclusives are headed in the future, more so would(can?) Epic go out of their way to entice more 1st Party studios to choose their engine.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
All I can gather from this is that the PS5 may load everything way faster than we're used to, and xboxonexseries (they have to fix this naming shit, it's dumb and confusing) will load things maybe half as fast (still way faster than anyone is used to) but it will look better when it loads. I'm an expert, my uncle had a nintendo.
Yeah, here's my summary:

• PS5's exclusives will look awesome, might run great too if Sony drops the 30fps-is-enough thinking.
• PS5's faster SSD will be seen all the time, in exclusives and multiplats, with less loading times and less texture streaming issues compared to XSX.
• PS5's faster GPU clock will show itself in some multiplats, the weaker maximum power will show itself in other multiplats.

• XSX's exclusives will look awesome, might run great too if MS keep the 60fps target.
• XSX's relatively fast SSD will decrease loading times like crazy but not as much as on PS5, more streaming issues will be seen in multiplats compared to PS5.
• XSX's higher CU count and maximum power will show itself in some multiplats, the slower GPU clock speed will show itself in other multiplats.

Everyone should honestly be happy. And when they show the games people will care less about a power or speed difference, after that it'll be about which game types and IPs you like the most.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
• PS5's faster GPU clock will show itself in some multiplats, .
• XSX's slower GPU clock speed will show itself in other multiplats.

I'm not sure it works that way. Certainly there's no precedence for this on the PC GPU side.

Everyone should honestly be happy. And when they show the games people will care less about a power or speed difference, after that it'll be about which game types and IPs you like the most.

I fully agree with this. Quite excited about the large CPU jump too, now 60fps games will be more prevalent on console.
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
I'm legit worried how are Sony gonna keep ps5 quiet trying to cool that high clock GPU. My PS4 and pro were so loud it kinda ruined my emersion and enjoyment of some games.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
Yeah, here's my summary:

• PS5's exclusives will look awesome, might run great too if Sony drops the 30fps-is-enough thinking.
• PS5's faster SSD will be seen all the time, in exclusives and multiplats, with less loading times and less texture streaming issues compared to XSX.
PS5's faster GPU clock will show itself in some multiplats, the weaker maximum power will show itself in other multiplats.

• XSX's exclusives will look awesome, might run great too if MS keep the 60fps target.
• XSX's relatively fast SSD will decrease loading times like crazy but not as much as on PS5, more streaming issues will be seen in multiplats compared to PS5.
• XSX's higher CU count and maximum power will show itself in some multiplats, the slower GPU clock speed will show itself in other multiplats.

Everyone should honestly be happy. And when they show the games people will care less about a power or speed difference, after that it'll be about which game types and IPs you like the most.
This point is odd. PS5 is 10tf (variable) vs 12tf. Are you saying the difference won't be as noticeable in certain games? Or are you saying that the gpu differences will actually favor the ps5 in some situations?

In reality, the XSX will always have a gpu advantage (unless it isn't used). The higher clocks on the ps5 gpu literally exist to close that gap as much as possible. Which, they've done a good job doing. The gap is small, but to say that a weaker gpu would ever have an advantage is crazy.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,845
I'm legit worried how are Sony gonna keep ps5 quiet trying to cool that high clock GPU. My PS4 and pro were so loud it kinda ruined my emersion and enjoyment of some games.
With how the system is designed you dont have to worry about that, they give constant a power consumption in demanding games and design the cooling system around that power level, which means they can ensure a certain sound level.
This point is odd. PS5 is 10tf (variable) vs 12tf. Are you saying the difference won't be as noticeable in certain games? Or are you saying that the gpu differences will actually favor the ps5 in some situations?
TF number is only a maximum theoritical compute capability, there are more things that determine the real performance, its not some end all be all variable that decides by itself if a game takes x amount of frametime to render. The main difference that this user pointed out is that PS5's GPU runs a lot faster, and generally faster clock is easier to handle than increased parallelization.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
With how the system is designed you dont have to worry about that, they give constant a power consumption in demanding games and design the cooling system around that power level, which means they can ensure a certain sound level.

TF number is only a maximum theoritical compute capability, there are more things that determine the real performance, its not some end all be all variable that decides by itself if a game takes x amount of frametime to render.
TF numbers have safely predicted the differences between consoles this entire generation. For example, the PS4 has a 40% stronger gpu. That difference was clearly shown in the games. Actually, the Xb1 has slightly higher clocks right? That didn't have any impact. The 40% performance difference was what it was, no matter what MS tried to argue against.

Specs don't change when they're put in a console instead of a PC. A 20% gpu difference is exactly that.

All of this is incredibly odd when one realizes why the PS5 gpu is clocked as high as it is. Clearly, Sony knew they needed that CU count for BC, and they knew they needed BC. So they did what they could to minimize the difference. But acting like gpu's are somehow benefitted from lower CU counts that are clocked higher runs counter to the progressions we see.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,845
TF numbers have safely predicted the differences between consoles this entire generation. For example, the PS4 has a 40% stronger gpu. That difference was clearly shown in the games. Actually, the Xb1 has slightly higher clocks right? That didn't have any impact. The 40% performance difference was what it was, no matter what MS tried to argue against.
XB1 had a slightly higher clock, but not one to make a significant difference (6% difference, meanwhile PS5 has more than 20% higher clock), in addition to that, PS4 was also the leading development platform for the generation as it was the more popular hardware, there were also other differences between the GPUs beyond TF number (PS4 had 8 async compute units while X1 had only 2), and a huge difference in memory, this time its hard to say which one has the better memory, because of how you access the memory on Xbox.