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Simon Says Mafia - I would never lie to you, please do what I say

Oct 25, 2017
2,117
Same to you

lol yea, that breadcrumb. I was toying with claiming a doc if I needed to at some point. Probably 1 shot or something.



Thanks, and yea give me spec

You should see our reactions in scum chat about the turn around. We were amazed.
====

I thought I may have messed up when I was pushing exo off of the Fran lynch yesterday. Dat double vote was scary.
You both have it
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,732
I thought I may have messed up when I was pushing exo off of the Fran lynch yesterday. Dat double vote was scary.
I never thought people would turbo without my double. I left for an hour and bam day was done.

I had decided to abandon the Fran lynch anyways since no one else wanted to follow me on it. I was going to try to go after Fran's partner. Unfortunately, at the time I thought that was Meatwad. Little did I know all it took was town to bus Salva and no scum were involved at all lol.
 
OP
OP
Pedro
Oct 25, 2017
1,037
Thanks for hosting the game Pedro
You're welcome! <3

The Mafia thread should be open for everyone on OM!

---

I'm going to address something that genuinely bummed me out in this game, and hopefully I will not have to talk about it another time.

During the middle of the game, there were a few rude comments about this game's balance. That, over time, demoralized me and made me feel I had done a bad job, reducing my enjoyment for my own game; it's why I stopped writing flavor for it.

I ask everyone who played in this game to in the future:
  • don't comment on how broken or badly designed you think a game is before you see all of its pieces. No single person is trying to create a bad game on purpose, so if you think a side is overpowered there is likely something else to compensate for it;
  • remember that the gamerunner is not the only person responsible for their game. They work with a pair of reviewers (in this case, 3 reviewers helped me) to make sure it's acceptable and no single person should take the full blame for any mishaps;
  • even if in the end you still think some roles should have been different, provide criticism in a better way that was done here. Having to read that people would "shout at me" for putting X or Y roles in place was really uncool.
I will stick around helping with other games, and at some point I'll run another Gif game, but if another person had received these comments about their game they might have felt intimidated enough to decide not to run any other game again.

---

I want to thank Sawneeks for helping me with the first draft of this design waaaaaaay back in February last year and making sure the Simon role would work (god, it's been a while),
Sorian , Rover , and Fireblend for reviewing my game and giving me better ideas than I could ever think of by myself,
Brazil for being the best person I could have wanted to run a game alongside me <3,
and the entire Modchat for supporting me at all times. It is tough to make decisions that could influence the enjoyment of multiple people, and I was very fortunate to know that they would always have my back.

If you still want more Mafia, please follow The Mansion if you aren't following it already! That game had many exciting moments and I badly want to see how it will end. And I hope to see y'all playing more games in this season!
 
Last edited:
Nov 3, 2017
1,828
I never thought people would turbo without my double. I left for an hour and bam day was done.

I had decided to abandon the Fran lynch anyways since no one else wanted to follow me on it. I was going to try to go after Fran's partner. Unfortunately, at the time I thought that was Meatwad. Little did I know all it took was town to bus Salva and no scum were involved at all lol.
I was so close to pushing a lynch on you even though you had a double vote. Fran had to walk me from the ledge lol. It couldve been fun.
---

I'm going to address something that genuinely bummed me out in this game, and hopefully I will not have to talk about it another time.

During the middle of the game, there were a few rude comments about this game's balance. That, over time, demoralized me and made me feel I had done a bad job, reducing my enjoyment for my own game; it's why I stopped writing flavor for it.
Im sorry if I was harsh about it. I tried to just roll wiht it and see it as a glass half full type thing with it happening so early.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
Pedro I hope the negative comments don’t influence you going forward. I thought the design of this game was really cool and unique. You did a great job running it, and clearly some of the comments about balance didn’t pan out at all the way some made it out to seem. I hope to see some cool designs from you in the future!

Plus you said you’d co-design a future game with me. I haven’t forgot😉
 
Oct 25, 2017
800
USA
Sorry you had to deal with those comments Pedro, They annoyed me too because I believe full faith should always be given to the game runner. If something appears to be unusual then there is usually a good reason for it. Balancing a game is hard and keeping it balanced while making it fun and unique is harder still. I highly respect the efforts of you and everyone else who takes the time and effort to make these games.

I also want to apologize for the times you had to warn me about activity. I tried to be active as possible at all times but I misjudged how well I could handle the game between school and work and that led to me falling behind at times. Still greatly enjoyed playing so thanks.
 

Dr. Monkey

Mafia MVP
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,619
I will stick around helping with other games, and at some point I'll run another Gif game, but if another person had received these comments about their game they might have felt intimidated enough to decide not to run any other game again.
I will hard agree on this, and we need designers keeping games happening. Beyond that, though, this was a fun game to watch! I kept up with it pretty steadily until about a week ago and I'm honestly not much for spectating, so that says something.
 

Fantomas

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,495
Also yeah, just to speak to the design of the game, I thought it was really cool that there were all these roles that were built around the day phase rather than the night phase, what with the Hammerer, the Unlynchables, the Day Vig, and the Vengeful. I just thought that was a really cool design and I don't think I've seen anything like that yet, so yeah, I thought the design was great too, Pedro! <3
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,764
Also yeah, just to speak to the design of the game, I thought it was really cool that there were all these roles that were built around the day phase rather than the night phase, what with the Hammerer, the Unlynchables, the Day Vig, and the Vengeful. I just thought that was a really cool design and I don't think I've seen anything like that yet, so yeah, I thought the design was great too, Pedro! <3
Yeah, all day abilities was super neat!
 
OP
OP
Pedro
Oct 25, 2017
1,037
Im sorry if I was harsh about it. I tried to just roll wiht it and see it as a glass half full type thing with it happening so early.
Sorry you had to deal with those comments Pedro, They annoyed me too because I believe full faith should always be given to the game runner. If something appears to be unusual then there is usually a good reason for it. Balancing a game is hard and keeping it balanced while making it fun and unique is harder still. I highly respect the efforts of you and everyone else who takes the time and effort to make these games.

I also want to apologize for the times you had to warn me about activity. I tried to be active as possible at all times but I misjudged how well I could handle the game between school and work and that led to me falling behind at times. Still greatly enjoyed playing so thanks.
Thanks, you two, and everyone else. And don't worry at all about that warning, Meatwad. I know these games are hard to follow during weekends, and that warning didn't lessen my opinion of you in any way; I just have to send them because of our rules. In fact, I'm super glad that you respond to my invites and keep returning to play with us <333

Plus you said you’d co-design a future game with me. I haven’t forgot😉
excuse you he is my co-designer
You can share😡
I like you both, don't fight!!! (yes, we have to do that, nat. monkey, we're already doing one. also, i was someone else's co-designer before you both so lol)
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,878
Congrats on the scum win.

Sorry Pedro that you got those comments. I followed this game loosely so I probably missed those comments but I hope it doesn't discourage you too much in the future <3
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,437
During the middle of the game, there were a few rude comments about this game's balance. That, over time, demoralized me and made me feel I had done a bad job, reducing my enjoyment for my own game; it's why I stopped writing flavor for it.
I'm going to answer to this: I'm sorry that you felt that, it wasn't my intention to make you feel bad but I was really frustrated with how the game was designed and reacted badly. I worked really hard to make 2 lynchs happen (well, not so much with DC's but I did with Faddy's) and, instead of lynching a townie, I was punished forcing me to kill a player because they are now a confirmed townie. Town had 2 unlynchables townies (and I know that Faddy isn't officially one but when he had no restriction about saving himself that what he really is) which are roles that rewards town for bad play. Town fucked up twice (going after the easy lynch with DC and Faddy claiming his role) but they were never punished for it. Instead they were rewarded with a confirmed townie and a bunch of votes to work with. And scum was forced to kill that confirmed townie, even when that player was doing a bad job, instead of people that were actually playing well.

  • even if in the end you still think some roles should have been different, provide criticism in a better way that was done here. Having to read that people would "shout at me" for putting X or Y roles in place was really uncool.
Again, I'm sorry about that. I got really frustated and ended up venting in the game when I shouldn't. I wasn't never going to shout at you but I was really angry at the time. I should have just stepped away from the keyboard and don't post anything or ask for a replacement.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
I'm going to answer to this: I'm sorry that you felt that, it wasn't my intention to make you feel bad but I was really frustrated with how the game was designed and reacted badly. I worked really hard to make 2 lynchs happen (well, not so much with DC's but I did with Faddy's) and, instead of lynching a townie, I was punished forcing me to kill a player because they are now a confirmed townie. Town had 2 unlynchables townies (and I know that Faddy isn't officially one but when he had no restriction about saving himself that what he really is) which are roles that rewards town for bad play. Town fucked up twice (going after the easy lynch with DC and Faddy claiming his role) but they were never punished for it. Instead they were rewarded with a confirmed townie and a bunch of votes to work with. And scum was forced to kill that confirmed townie, even when that player was doing a bad job, instead of people that were actually playing well.

Again, I'm sorry about that. I got really frustated and ended up venting in the game when I shouldn't. I wasn't never going to shout at you but I was really angry at the time. I should have just stepped away from the keyboard and don't post anything or ask for a replacement.
I get being frustrated that a play you felt was solid didn't pan out, but that doesn't mean the balance was bad. Town had two roles that interacted with lynches - both one shot. Mafia also had two roles that interacted with lynches - one that balances out one of the town ones by adding an additional death to make up for a lost death, and the other can be used to force a free hammer on a townie (one would assume this likely doesn't work twice). There was a scum-aligned neutral that was looking to kill a townie (and was successful in doing so). If Apollo shoots a town member this game becomes a landslide in favor of scum that isn't even remotely close even WITH the two no lynches. A good play backfiring does not equate in any way with balance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
389
Gah, well played scum. What a team. We were so close to lynching Fran, but with his power they would have been in a pretty good place even so. Because as I mentioned

Without any proof or rereads, I could totally see a scum Zeke here. He is extremely powerful and slippery as scum. Frighteningly so.
Scum MVP

Also malus was awesome

Also gahhhhhhhh I want to apologize to everyone for not using the thunderdome and wasting a town power. With the no turbo power, we could have maybe turned things around in lylo.

Although a Fran/Zeke thunderdome would be so so sweet
Sorry I wasn't around at the end there either Meatwad Apollo

And TheChuggernaut bro, sorry about doubting you at the end. I shouldn't have!

I've also never been in lylo as a townie, so that was a really cool experience, a fun kind of stressful.

I really had fun this game, thanks Pedro ! I thought the game design was really unique and fun. I really liked being a part of a smaller game, because I felt like I had a better grip on people. And these games don't run as long, which is convenient for me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,216
Gah, well played scum. What a team. We were so close to lynching Fran, but with his power they would have been in a pretty good place even so. Because as I mentioned



Scum MVP

Also malus was awesome

Also gahhhhhhhh I want to apologize to everyone for not using the thunderdome and wasting a town power. With the no turbo power, we could have maybe turned things around in lylo.



Sorry I wasn't around at the end there either Meatwad Apollo

And TheChuggernaut bro, sorry about doubting you at the end. I shouldn't have!

I've also never been in lylo as a townie, so that was a really cool experience, a fun kind of stressful.

I really had fun this game, thanks Pedro ! I thought the game design was really unique and fun. I really liked being a part of a smaller game, because I felt like I had a better grip on people. And these games don't run as long, which is convenient for me.
Yeah, Zeke was really good here. Even if we got Fran I think he could of won pretty easily.

And no worries! it was my fault anyway lol. If I pushed that Fran lynch through, we would be talking about poor Malus being screwed with his wincon right now haha
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Glasgow, Scotland
I get being frustrated that a play you felt was solid didn't pan out, but that doesn't mean the balance was bad. Town had two roles that interacted with lynches - both one shot. Mafia also had two roles that interacted with lynches - one that balances out one of the town ones by adding an additional death to make up for a lost death, and the other can be used to force a free hammer on a townie (one would assume this likely doesn't work twice). There was a scum-aligned neutral that was looking to kill a townie (and was successful in doing so). If Apollo shoots a town member this game becomes a landslide in favor of scum that isn't even remotely close even WITH the two no lynches. A good play backfiring does not equate in any way with balance.
Faddy's should have had limitations. I feel like malus probably should've had some limitations as well. That's two players that can hijack the day phase through their own motivation. In a game based around day actions, it seems a bit too OP.

As for my role, I don't really think its a particularly useful power unless I managed to survive to endgame. It was more to something like a message sender, because it's just some misinformation if anything.


It was a novel game, being based around the day so much, though I probably wouldn't play in a set up like this again. I don't entirely think it worked.

Balance wise, I can sort of see the day vigi counter the scum-leaning neutral, but overall I was okay. It was swingy but not broken.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
Faddy's should have had limitations.

As for my role, I don't really think its a particularly useful power unless I managed to survive to endgame. It was more to something like a message sender, because it's just some misinformation if anything.


It was a novel game, being based around the day so much, though I probably wouldn't play in a set up like this again. I don't entirely think it worked.
Your role isn't consistently useful, but it would have been useful once prior to it being revealed. I just find it hard to take the balance complaints seriously when you went through the game with BOTH town lynch-free powers activating, lost a member to the vig, and still easily won without even using the lynch bomb. You can dislike the design if you want, but it is certainly not "unbalanced".
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,437
I get being frustrated that a play you felt was solid didn't pan out, but that doesn't mean the balance was bad. Town had two roles that interacted with lynches - both one shot. Mafia also had two roles that interacted with lynches - one that balances out one of the town ones by adding an additional death to make up for a lost death, and the other can be used to force a free hammer on a townie (one would assume this likely doesn't work twice). There was a scum-aligned neutral that was looking to kill a townie (and was successful in doing so). If Apollo shoots a town member this game becomes a landslide in favor of scum that isn't even remotely close even WITH the two no lynches. A good play backfiring does not equate in any way with balance.
Just answer me this: What would have happened if we killed Malus N1? Or if Apollo shot Malus? Is that still balanced?

And my point is that town was rewarded for screwing up, not once but twice. One thing is rewarding a side for a good play (a doctor protecting a target, a cop targeting scum, etc) and another is giving rewards even for bad plays. There is a difference there. Both Cabot and my role had conditions for them to work (Cabot couldn't stack votes and it could only hammer and I couldn't be the last scum remaining) while the unlynchables had none drawside. Town players could just play badly (and just look at Faddy D1 before the shot and D3) and they still not only wouldn't lose anything but also gain a confirmed town status and a votecount to work with. There is a big difference with the rewards/punishments for bad play between both sides.


Another thing that is not related to that: Can we stop allowing day vigs to kill D1? This is the second game in a row that uses them and it's really shitty for the player getting killed without being able to at least play a single phase. Imagine if you sign up for a game and you are killed in the 5 first minutes by a happy trigger vig.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Glasgow, Scotland
I will say I feel we've went off with complexity ratings again.

I just double checked and Brexit 2 was set as Unusual, the same as both Mansion and this.


I dunno how Brexit 2 which was fairly standard mafia with a few unseen roles is in the same group as either of these games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,437
I just find it hard to take the balance complaints seriously when you went through the game with BOTH town lynch-free powers activating, lost a member to the vig, and still easily won without even using the lynch bomb.
Because town playing badly is not game balance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
Just answer me this: What would have happened if we killed Malus N1? Or if Apollo shot Malus? Is that still balanced?

And my point is that town was rewarded for screwing up, not once but twice. One thing is rewarding a side for a good play (a doctor protecting a target, a cop targeting scum, etc) and another is giving rewards even for bad plays. There is a difference there. Both Cabot and my role had conditions for them to work (Cabot couldn't stack votes and it could only hammer and I couldn't be the last scum remaining) while the unlynchables had none drawside. Town players could just play badly (and just look at Faddy D1 before the shot and D3) and they still not only wouldn't lose anything but also gain a confirmed town status and a votecount to work with. There is a big difference with the rewards/punishments for bad play between both sides.


Another thing that is not related to that: Can we stop allowing day vigs to kill D1? This is the second game in a row that uses them and it's really shitty for the player getting killed without being able to at least play a single phase. Imagine if you sign up for a game and you are killed in the 5 first minutes by a happy trigger vig.
If Malus dies instead of winning that only alters the player count by a single person. If Malus is shot instead of Cabot, it alters the count by a single person and scum still have an extra body. In scenario #1 you go into the that last phase in mylo instead of lylo which has very little impact all told (either they still mislynch and lose or they no lynch and it goes to lylo anyways). In scenario #2 you're actually in a better spot ratio wise so I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove?

Sure, those two powers could help protect bad town play. Your lynch bomb does nothing but protect bad scum play. The hammerer's first use punishes bad town play.

I will agree that Day 1 Vig is pretty brutal though, regardless of who is shot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,437
I didn't see you complaining about being a lynch bomb which is literally the same thing.
I had to die to use my power. Both Faddy and DC were lynched and survived. Big difference. Mine had a big drawback (losing a 1/3 of the scum team), theirs didn't.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Glasgow, Scotland
Also my last point was covered in spec but I'll raise it here:

We should see if anyone is willing to join the scheduling team that is spoiled to all games. I think it was an unfortunate timing issue, but I wasn't best pleased with playing two games in a row with king mechanics (on D1 at least). This seems to have come around because different members of the team were playing in different games so their lack of knowledge on the games in the queue sort of caused this perfect storm.


Only way I can see this not happening again is if someone who affects scheduling knows the designs of all upcoming games and can pace appropriately based on that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
I had to die to use my power. Both Faddy and DC were lynched and survived. Big difference. Mine had a big drawback (losing a 1/3 of the scum team), theirs didn't.
They negated a lynch, town's only way to remove scum outside of a single vig shot. It's not a big difference given scum get to just pop off NKs that will never miss because there's no doctor. These were town's only protective roles and they were 1-shot. They were equivalent to 1-shot BPs, simply causing a no kill day instead of a no kill night. You can dislike the design if you want for feeling like it's too forgiving to bad play, but as far as balance goes (was one side strongly favored over the other prior to anything happening) I think you're off the mark.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
Also my last point was covered in spec but I'll raise it here:

We should see if anyone is willing to join the scheduling team that is spoiled to all games. I think it was an unfortunate timing issue, but I wasn't best pleased with playing two games in a row with king mechanics (on D1 at least). This seems to have come around because different members of the team were playing in different games so their lack of knowledge on the games in the queue sort of caused this perfect storm.


Only way I can see this not happening again is if someone who affects scheduling knows the designs of all upcoming games and can pace appropriately based on that.
I think leaning too far into scheduling based on roles in a game can get murky fast. Do you prevent two games from running in close proximity because they both have cults? Or if both have some sort of modifiers like MafiEra and Mansion? What if three games are approved in a row with King mechanics? Does the third person who got approved have to wait an extra season for their game to run just because of bad luck?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Glasgow, Scotland
I think leaning too far into scheduling based on roles in a game can get murky fast. Do you prevent two games from running in close proximity because they both have cults? Or if both have some sort of modifiers like MafiEra and Mansion? What if three games are approved in a row with King mechanics? Does the third person who got approved have to wait an extra season for their game to run just because of bad luck?
I mean I'd say the system is bad luck already really.

Brexit 2 was approved about six months before it ran, and by the time it came round to launching my enthusiasm for running had died. This was probably down to the fact that the queue isnt available to everyone.

When you have big game changing mechanics like cults and kings, I absolutely think you should spread them apart. The other way of doing it and not worrying about the order is by putting these games into their own complexity rating or giving away some hints at sign up that a similar game has been run recently.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,437
They negated a lynch, town's only way to remove scum outside of a single vig shot.
Except that they worked when town was getting lynched. They were never removing scum, they were protecting town when they screwed up.

It's not a big difference given scum get to just pop off NKs that will never miss because there's no doctor.
It forces scum to kill the unlynchable during the night phase. I wouldn't have killed neither DC or Faddy but I had no choice when they became confirmed townie. This was a small game so I can't take the risk of letting they live until the end.

They were equivalent to 1-shot BPs, simply causing a no kill day instead of a no kill night.
And making them confirmed townies. And giving town all the votecounts of that day to make reads.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Glasgow, Scotland
Natiko, your point about the doctor requires perfect information on the game. I think at the time these players were 'flipped', scum could have reasonably suspected a Doctor existed and acted accordingly.


Doctors are the most common power role.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
I mean I'd say the system is bad luck already really.

Brexit 2 was approved about six months before it ran, and by the time it came round to launching my enthusiasm for running had died. This was probably down to the fact that the queue isnt available to everyone.

When you have big game changing mechanics like cults and kings, I absolutely think you should spread them apart. The other way of doing it and not worrying about the order is by putting these games into their own complexity rating or giving away some hints at sign up that a similar game has been run recently.
As far as the delay between approval and running, that does suck. I believe Game of Thrones took just shy of a year from approval to running. House of Horrors will run this season at some point, but was approved early June 2018. I was more thinking along the lines though of if three games have a King and were going to run 9, 10, and 11 months after approval, if you then have to further spread them out it would be that much longer of a wait for the second and third approved ones.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
Except that they worked when town was getting lynched. They were never removing scum, they were protecting town when they screwed up.
Yes, but it caused them to NOT lynch anyone and allowed scum to get an unopposed NK off.

It forces scum to kill the unlynchable during the night phase. I wouldn't have killed neither DC or Faddy but I had no choice when they became confirmed townie. This was a small game so I can't take the risk of letting they live until the end.
It doesn't "force" scum to do shit. I didn't see you kill Apollo who was as good as confirmed when no one counter claimed.

And making them confirmed townies. And giving town all the votecounts of that day to make reads.
And it's entirely possible to have seen those votecounts do nothing but led town to mislynch town. They could have had an all town train on them, that's how the game works. I mean Fran, seriously, what you're arguing would apply to ANY town player that is voted to be lynched - whether they are lynched or not. Scum have to be smart with how they vote. We are playing Mafia, huge shocker that vote placement matters.

Natiko, your point about the doctor requires perfect information on the game. I think at the time these players were 'flipped', scum could have reasonably suspected a Doctor existed and acted accordingly.


Doctors are the most common power role.
Sure, they totally could have. That's a great example as to why you shouldn't complain about balance without the full picture. I've done it myself so I'm certainly not free of blame, but an uninformed opinion is often a faulty one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,117
all this balance talk sounds just like a difference of opinion really.
I mainly think it's a design argument being masked as a balance one when I think they're two very different things. Design is totally subjective, I would never argue against someone's feelings about a design. I just think conveying those as if they're balance problems isn't really accurate.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,732
I really enjoyed the game. Great job, pedro.

Personally, I think the balance was fine. As someone who doesn't know much about usual balance, I had no reason to distrust Faddy's claims due to balance reasons. I trusted that the game master properly balanced the game.

Considering there was no doc and no cop, I think the game was beautifully balanced. It really came down to reads and carefully over mulling people's posts and motives. That's where town failed. Town was very lucky early on, but even luck wasn't enough to win the game alone. Scum did really well. Great job guys.
 
Oct 30, 2017
518
Switzerland
Congrats to the scum team! The one time I didn't suspect Zeke he of course turns out scum.

I think the balance was fine. Considering scum got hit by the worst case with the vig shot and no lynches but still managed to get the victory, maybe even a bit in favor of scum. Though I still think a 5 minute window to use a power is very tight and would definitely favor people from certain time zones, but I guess in the end it really didn't matter since Faddy was turboed when everyone knew he was around.

I'm also going to say that trusting a game is balanced and not believing a claim are not the same thing. At the time I didn't believe Faddys claim because it seemed unbalanced, but with the reveal you just have to adjust your expectation of the rest of the game instead of crying foul.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,667
Congrats to Fran and Zeke!

I don't know how you don't get lynched Fran. One day I will get you as scum! I was just getting there on Zeke when I was brutally killed.

I thought it was a really neat game Pedro. And any "game balance" issues were clearly not present when the whole game is revealed. Pedro I know it is tough to read criticism but Fran was completely legitimate in how he handled it. It really isn't about the design, it was about discrediting me. And that really did win scum the game imo. You can see Sorian do similar in MafiEra when he is presenting game design arguments to steer the game in his direction.

Congrats to Cabot on having your corpse dragged to a win!