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Simon Says Mafia - I would never lie to you, please do what I say
- Thread starter Pedro
- Start date
I started the Salva train, so... sorry. D:
<3
I never thought people would turbo without my double. I left for an hour and bam day was done.
I had decided to abandon the Fran lynch anyways since no one else wanted to follow me on it. I was going to try to go after Fran's partner. Unfortunately, at the time I thought that was Meatwad. Little did I know all it took was town to bus Salva and no scum were involved at all lol.
OP
OP
You're welcome! <3
The Mafia thread should be open for everyone on OM!
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I'm going to address something that genuinely bummed me out in this game, and hopefully I will not have to talk about it another time.
During the middle of the game, there were a few rude comments about this game's balance. That, over time, demoralized me and made me feel I had done a bad job, reducing my enjoyment for my own game; it's why I stopped writing flavor for it.
I ask everyone who played in this game to in the future:
- don't comment on how broken or badly designed you think a game is before you see all of its pieces. No single person is trying to create a bad game on purpose, so if you think a side is overpowered there is likely something else to compensate for it;
- remember that the gamerunner is not the only person responsible for their game. They work with a pair of reviewers (in this case, 3 reviewers helped me) to make sure it's acceptable and no single person should take the full blame for any mishaps;
- even if in the end you still think some roles should have been different, provide criticism in a better way that was done here. Having to read that people would "shout at me" for putting X or Y roles in place was really uncool.
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I want to thank Sawneeks for helping me with the first draft of this design waaaaaaay back in February last year and making sure the Simon role would work (god, it's been a while),
Sorian , Rover , and Fireblend for reviewing my game and giving me better ideas than I could ever think of by myself,
Brazil for being the best person I could have wanted to run a game alongside me <3,
and the entire Modchat for supporting me at all times. It is tough to make decisions that could influence the enjoyment of multiple people, and I was very fortunate to know that they would always have my back.
If you still want more Mafia, please follow The Mansion if you aren't following it already! That game had many exciting moments and I badly want to see how it will end. And I hope to see y'all playing more games in this season!
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I was so close to pushing a lynch on you even though you had a double vote. Fran had to walk me from the ledge lol. It couldve been fun.
Im sorry if I was harsh about it. I tried to just roll wiht it and see it as a glass half full type thing with it happening so early.
Pedro I hope the negative comments don't influence you going forward. I thought the design of this game was really cool and unique. You did a great job running it, and clearly some of the comments about balance didn't pan out at all the way some made it out to seem. I hope to see some cool designs from you in the future!
Plus you said you'd co-design a future game with me. I haven't forgot😉
Sorry you had to deal with those comments Pedro, They annoyed me too because I believe full faith should always be given to the game runner. If something appears to be unusual then there is usually a good reason for it. Balancing a game is hard and keeping it balanced while making it fun and unique is harder still. I highly respect the efforts of you and everyone else who takes the time and effort to make these games.
I also want to apologize for the times you had to warn me about activity. I tried to be active as possible at all times but I misjudged how well I could handle the game between school and work and that led to me falling behind at times. Still greatly enjoyed playing so thanks.
I also want to apologize for the times you had to warn me about activity. I tried to be active as possible at all times but I misjudged how well I could handle the game between school and work and that led to me falling behind at times. Still greatly enjoyed playing so thanks.
I will hard agree on this, and we need designers keeping games happening. Beyond that, though, this was a fun game to watch! I kept up with it pretty steadily until about a week ago and I'm honestly not much for spectating, so that says something.
Also yeah, just to speak to the design of the game, I thought it was really cool that there were all these roles that were built around the day phase rather than the night phase, what with the Hammerer, the Unlynchables, the Day Vig, and the Vengeful. I just thought that was a really cool design and I don't think I've seen anything like that yet, so yeah, I thought the design was great too, Pedro! <3
OP
OP
Thanks, you two, and everyone else. And don't worry at all about that warning, Meatwad. I know these games are hard to follow during weekends, and that warning didn't lessen my opinion of you in any way; I just have to send them because of our rules. In fact, I'm super glad that you respond to my invites and keep returning to play with us <333
I like you both, don't fight!!! (yes, we have to do that, nat. monkey, we're already doing one. also, i was someone else's co-designer before you both so lol)
D'aww <3
It was my pleasure. Your game was really fun to follow along, and I really liked the design as well, as I've already said multiple times, hahaha.
Looking lean
Vengeance for the lost
I'm going to answer to this: I'm sorry that you felt that, it wasn't my intention to make you feel bad but I was really frustrated with how the game was designed and reacted badly. I worked really hard to make 2 lynchs happen (well, not so much with DC's but I did with Faddy's) and, instead of lynching a townie, I was punished forcing me to kill a player because they are now a confirmed townie. Town had 2 unlynchables townies (and I know that Faddy isn't officially one but when he had no restriction about saving himself that what he really is) which are roles that rewards town for bad play. Town fucked up twice (going after the easy lynch with DC and Faddy claiming his role) but they were never punished for it. Instead they were rewarded with a confirmed townie and a bunch of votes to work with. And scum was forced to kill that confirmed townie, even when that player was doing a bad job, instead of people that were actually playing well.
I get being frustrated that a play you felt was solid didn't pan out, but that doesn't mean the balance was bad. Town had two roles that interacted with lynches - both one shot. Mafia also had two roles that interacted with lynches - one that balances out one of the town ones by adding an additional death to make up for a lost death, and the other can be used to force a free hammer on a townie (one would assume this likely doesn't work twice). There was a scum-aligned neutral that was looking to kill a townie (and was successful in doing so). If Apollo shoots a town member this game becomes a landslide in favor of scum that isn't even remotely close even WITH the two no lynches. A good play backfiring does not equate in any way with balance.
Gah, well played scum. What a team. We were so close to lynching Fran, but with his power they would have been in a pretty good place even so. Because as I mentioned
Scum MVP
Also malus was awesome
Also gahhhhhhhh I want to apologize to everyone for not using the thunderdome and wasting a town power. With the no turbo power, we could have maybe turned things around in lylo.
Sorry I wasn't around at the end there either Meatwad Apollo
And TheChuggernaut bro, sorry about doubting you at the end. I shouldn't have!
I've also never been in lylo as a townie, so that was a really cool experience, a fun kind of stressful.
I really had fun this game, thanks Pedro ! I thought the game design was really unique and fun. I really liked being a part of a smaller game, because I felt like I had a better grip on people. And these games don't run as long, which is convenient for me.
Scum MVP
Also malus was awesome
Also gahhhhhhhh I want to apologize to everyone for not using the thunderdome and wasting a town power. With the no turbo power, we could have maybe turned things around in lylo.
Sorry I wasn't around at the end there either Meatwad Apollo
And TheChuggernaut bro, sorry about doubting you at the end. I shouldn't have!
I've also never been in lylo as a townie, so that was a really cool experience, a fun kind of stressful.
I really had fun this game, thanks Pedro ! I thought the game design was really unique and fun. I really liked being a part of a smaller game, because I felt like I had a better grip on people. And these games don't run as long, which is convenient for me.
Yeah, Zeke was really good here. Even if we got Fran I think he could of won pretty easily.
And no worries! it was my fault anyway lol. If I pushed that Fran lynch through, we would be talking about poor Malus being screwed with his wincon right now haha
Faddy's should have had limitations. I feel like malus probably should've had some limitations as well. That's two players that can hijack the day phase through their own motivation. In a game based around day actions, it seems a bit too OP.
As for my role, I don't really think its a particularly useful power unless I managed to survive to endgame. It was more to something like a message sender, because it's just some misinformation if anything.
It was a novel game, being based around the day so much, though I probably wouldn't play in a set up like this again. I don't entirely think it worked.
Balance wise, I can sort of see the day vigi counter the scum-leaning neutral, but overall I was okay. It was swingy but not broken.
Your role isn't consistently useful, but it would have been useful once prior to it being revealed. I just find it hard to take the balance complaints seriously when you went through the game with BOTH town lynch-free powers activating, lost a member to the vig, and still easily won without even using the lynch bomb. You can dislike the design if you want, but it is certainly not "unbalanced".
Just answer me this: What would have happened if we killed Malus N1? Or if Apollo shot Malus? Is that still balanced?
And my point is that town was rewarded for screwing up, not once but twice. One thing is rewarding a side for a good play (a doctor protecting a target, a cop targeting scum, etc) and another is giving rewards even for bad plays. There is a difference there. Both Cabot and my role had conditions for them to work (Cabot couldn't stack votes and it could only hammer and I couldn't be the last scum remaining) while the unlynchables had none drawside. Town players could just play badly (and just look at Faddy D1 before the shot and D3) and they still not only wouldn't lose anything but also gain a confirmed town status and a votecount to work with. There is a big difference with the rewards/punishments for bad play between both sides.
Another thing that is not related to that: Can we stop allowing day vigs to kill D1? This is the second game in a row that uses them and it's really shitty for the player getting killed without being able to at least play a single phase. Imagine if you sign up for a game and you are killed in the 5 first minutes by a happy trigger vig.
I will say I feel we've went off with complexity ratings again.
I just double checked and Brexit 2 was set as Unusual, the same as both Mansion and this.
I dunno how Brexit 2 which was fairly standard mafia with a few unseen roles is in the same group as either of these games.
I just double checked and Brexit 2 was set as Unusual, the same as both Mansion and this.
I dunno how Brexit 2 which was fairly standard mafia with a few unseen roles is in the same group as either of these games.
If Malus dies instead of winning that only alters the player count by a single person. If Malus is shot instead of Cabot, it alters the count by a single person and scum still have an extra body. In scenario #1 you go into the that last phase in mylo instead of lylo which has very little impact all told (either they still mislynch and lose or they no lynch and it goes to lylo anyways). In scenario #2 you're actually in a better spot ratio wise so I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove?
Sure, those two powers could help protect bad town play. Your lynch bomb does nothing but protect bad scum play. The hammerer's first use punishes bad town play.
I will agree that Day 1 Vig is pretty brutal though, regardless of who is shot.
I didn't see you complaining about being a lynch bomb which is literally the same thing.
I had to die to use my power. Both Faddy and DC were lynched and survived. Big difference. Mine had a big drawback (losing a 1/3 of the scum team), theirs didn't.
Also my last point was covered in spec but I'll raise it here:
We should see if anyone is willing to join the scheduling team that is spoiled to all games. I think it was an unfortunate timing issue, but I wasn't best pleased with playing two games in a row with king mechanics (on D1 at least). This seems to have come around because different members of the team were playing in different games so their lack of knowledge on the games in the queue sort of caused this perfect storm.
Only way I can see this not happening again is if someone who affects scheduling knows the designs of all upcoming games and can pace appropriately based on that.
We should see if anyone is willing to join the scheduling team that is spoiled to all games. I think it was an unfortunate timing issue, but I wasn't best pleased with playing two games in a row with king mechanics (on D1 at least). This seems to have come around because different members of the team were playing in different games so their lack of knowledge on the games in the queue sort of caused this perfect storm.
Only way I can see this not happening again is if someone who affects scheduling knows the designs of all upcoming games and can pace appropriately based on that.
They negated a lynch, town's only way to remove scum outside of a single vig shot. It's not a big difference given scum get to just pop off NKs that will never miss because there's no doctor. These were town's only protective roles and they were 1-shot. They were equivalent to 1-shot BPs, simply causing a no kill day instead of a no kill night. You can dislike the design if you want for feeling like it's too forgiving to bad play, but as far as balance goes (was one side strongly favored over the other prior to anything happening) I think you're off the mark.
I think leaning too far into scheduling based on roles in a game can get murky fast. Do you prevent two games from running in close proximity because they both have cults? Or if both have some sort of modifiers like MafiEra and Mansion? What if three games are approved in a row with King mechanics? Does the third person who got approved have to wait an extra season for their game to run just because of bad luck?
I mean I'd say the system is bad luck already really.
Brexit 2 was approved about six months before it ran, and by the time it came round to launching my enthusiasm for running had died. This was probably down to the fact that the queue isnt available to everyone.
When you have big game changing mechanics like cults and kings, I absolutely think you should spread them apart. The other way of doing it and not worrying about the order is by putting these games into their own complexity rating or giving away some hints at sign up that a similar game has been run recently.
Except that they worked when town was getting lynched. They were never removing scum, they were protecting town when they screwed up.
It forces scum to kill the unlynchable during the night phase. I wouldn't have killed neither DC or Faddy but I had no choice when they became confirmed townie. This was a small game so I can't take the risk of letting they live until the end.
And making them confirmed townies. And giving town all the votecounts of that day to make reads.
Natiko, your point about the doctor requires perfect information on the game. I think at the time these players were 'flipped', scum could have reasonably suspected a Doctor existed and acted accordingly.
Doctors are the most common power role.
Doctors are the most common power role.
As far as the delay between approval and running, that does suck. I believe Game of Thrones took just shy of a year from approval to running. House of Horrors will run this season at some point, but was approved early June 2018. I was more thinking along the lines though of if three games have a King and were going to run 9, 10, and 11 months after approval, if you then have to further spread them out it would be that much longer of a wait for the second and third approved ones.
Yes, but it caused them to NOT lynch anyone and allowed scum to get an unopposed NK off.
It doesn't "force" scum to do shit. I didn't see you kill Apollo who was as good as confirmed when no one counter claimed.
And it's entirely possible to have seen those votecounts do nothing but led town to mislynch town. They could have had an all town train on them, that's how the game works. I mean Fran, seriously, what you're arguing would apply to ANY town player that is voted to be lynched - whether they are lynched or not. Scum have to be smart with how they vote. We are playing Mafia, huge shocker that vote placement matters.
Sure, they totally could have. That's a great example as to why you shouldn't complain about balance without the full picture. I've done it myself so I'm certainly not free of blame, but an uninformed opinion is often a faulty one.
I mainly think it's a design argument being masked as a balance one when I think they're two very different things. Design is totally subjective, I would never argue against someone's feelings about a design. I just think conveying those as if they're balance problems isn't really accurate.
I really enjoyed the game. Great job, pedro.
Personally, I think the balance was fine. As someone who doesn't know much about usual balance, I had no reason to distrust Faddy's claims due to balance reasons. I trusted that the game master properly balanced the game.
Considering there was no doc and no cop, I think the game was beautifully balanced. It really came down to reads and carefully over mulling people's posts and motives. That's where town failed. Town was very lucky early on, but even luck wasn't enough to win the game alone. Scum did really well. Great job guys.
Personally, I think the balance was fine. As someone who doesn't know much about usual balance, I had no reason to distrust Faddy's claims due to balance reasons. I trusted that the game master properly balanced the game.
Considering there was no doc and no cop, I think the game was beautifully balanced. It really came down to reads and carefully over mulling people's posts and motives. That's where town failed. Town was very lucky early on, but even luck wasn't enough to win the game alone. Scum did really well. Great job guys.