Since it's November, annual reminder: Thanksgiving is a problematic holiday, "celebrates a myth of colonialism and white proprietorship of the U.S."

[Book One]

Continue to educate and separate the myths about the 'first thanksgiving', sure. It will lead to continued change about what people take from a holiday like that. (Which has already happened for a lot of people).

but 'thanksgiving is problematic and should end, etc?'

it's like some people are trying to help right wingers get more support in their dismissal of progress

 

[Lundren]

The best response in this thread, thank you.

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Great post.

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This. Perfect post.

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What was your favourite part of that post? The dismissal of concerns around the impact of colonialism or the attacking of the community?

The extermination of the indigenous population was done WAY before I or my parents were born and there is nothing I can do to reverse or change it.

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This is a bad argument when it's used about people not wanting to discuss slavery, and it's a bad argument here.

 

[Deception]

Continue to educate and separate the myths about the 'first thanksgiving', sure. It will lead to continued change about what people take from a holiday like that. (Which has already happened for a lot of people).

but 'thanksgiving is problematic and should end, etc?'

it's like some people are trying to help right wingers get more support in their dismissal of progress

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This place tends to take every issue to its absolute extreme. Like the first part of the post is everything that every decent person should agree upon and most already do, but when you come with the "lets end this" you are going to lose everyone and they won't even pay attention to the rest of your argument.

 

[Soph]

This topic is extra crucial since this is about a minority which is far smaller than most other minorities who already have trouble defending themselves.
It's because we wiped them out too that they are not around anymore to defend themselves in large numbers either. There are a lot of people showing their colours here and I'm honestly astounded and perplexed.

Disgusting.

 

[SilentPanda]

This place tends to take every issue to its absolute extreme. Like the first part of the post is everything that every decent person should agree upon and most already do, but when you come with the "lets end this" you are going to lose everyone and they won't even pay attention to the rest of your argument.

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If they aren't on board already due to some small issue, then they were never allies to begin with, it's the same as, I would have supported police reform, but only if the sport player didn't disrespect the flag, I would have supported something, but only if the protester didn't bother my daily life in their protesting.

 

[SweetBellic]

The problematic aspects of the Thanksgiving origin story should be addressed in America's school curriculum. Context matters. However, considering it is one of the few American holidays that is both secular and commemorates values I can get behind (indulgence, gratitude, togetherness) I think it's worth celebrating for that alone, despite the problematic origin. Same goes for Independence Day, which commemorates other things I value (freedom, self-determination, partying) despite America's problematic origins and continued problems.

 

[Stinkles]

Yup, we celebrate Christmas at our house without any religious bits, but we refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving beyond eating - often as guests of family/friends. But I do think it's important to celebrate some sort of national holiday - and a less problematic one. So we only celebrate Columbus Day, that way we can appreciate science, discovery and moral clarity all on the same day. Also celebrates a culture of immigrants - Columbus was Italian by birth and Spanish by charter. I know a little bit about him from watching news specials on Columbus day on Fox - and he not only discovered a completely virgin land beyond the waves, he brought morality and culture and medicine and light and even comfortable bedding, to a people who otherwise would have been trapped forever in squalor and horror.

 

[Hasseigaku]

Continue to educate and separate the myths about the 'first thanksgiving', sure. It will lead to continued change about what people take from a holiday like that. (Which has already happened for a lot of people).

but 'thanksgiving is problematic and should end, etc?'

it's like some people are trying to help right wingers get more support in their dismissal of progress

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It's amazing how fragile are in that one small thing is enough to tip them over into being a right-winger because this is about the millionth incantation of this particular idea.

 

[Hasseigaku]

This place tends to take every issue to its absolute extreme. Like the first part of the post is everything that every decent person should agree upon and most already do, but when you come with the "lets end this" you are going to lose everyone and they won't even pay attention to the rest of your argument.

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Or people are only addressing the extreme argument in order to find an excuse the whole thing out of hand.

"Cool he went too far now I get to ignore the entire thing!"

 

[Book One]

It's amazing how fragile are in that one small thing is enough to tip them over into being a right-winger because this is about the millionth incantation of this particular idea.

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good thing only one small thing exists

 

[McScroggz]

The problematic aspects of the Thanksgiving origin story should be addressed in America's school curriculum. Context matters. However, considering it is one of the few American holidays that is both secular and commemorates values I can get behind (indulgence, gratitude, togetherness) I think it's worth celebrating for that alone, despite the problematic origin. Same goes for Independence Day, which commemorates other things I value (freedom, self-determination, partying) despite America's problematic origins and continued problems.

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I think the reason a lot of people including myself are scoffing at OP is because it is taught in America's school system. Can it be better taught and represented? Sure. But extending it out to the point where we are calling for an end to a holiday that only superficially is linked to the origins I feel is very counterproductive. All it does it make progressives look that much worse for conservatives and, more importantly, moderates. And honestly do you really want to be in a constant state of cynicism?

Like, Thanksgiving is about community and showing appreciation to your loved ones and doing something good for other people. If you are taking something else from it you just have an agenda.

Next week will we be discussing how Arbor Day is really just a way for Americans to justify their deforestation and pretend global warming isn't getting worse or something? I mean come on guys...

 

[Deception]

If they aren't on board already due to some small issue, then they were never allies to begin with, it's the same as, I would have supported police reform, but only if the sport player didn't disrespect the flag, I would have supported something, but only if the protester didn't bother my daily life in their protesting.

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That's not the same though. It would be the same as someone condemning the abuse of minorities by police and then in the same breathe saying police should be abolished. The average person is going to agree that there are injustices happening, but not going to agree that police should be abolished. You don't always have to go to the extreme to have a dialogue about something (at least something that is honestly not going away) and that's something people should learn around here.

 

[The Climaxan]

I do wish schools would change the way Thanksgiving is taught. My daughter is in Kindergarten and I'm essentially have to reprogram what she's learning about pilgrims. They need to learn the truth (maybe not in Kindergarten but at some point in their youth) and at least evolve the narrative to be about giving thanks and respecting one another/celebrating our differences when teaching it to young children. In terms of the day itself, to echo a lot in this thread, the "first thanksgiving" never had a place in my family's thanksgiving gatherings and never will. It's the schools where the definition needs to change, because culturally it feels like it has for the most part.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Yup, we celebrate Christmas at our house without any religious bits, but we refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving beyond eating - often as guests of family/friends. But I do think it's important to celebrate some sort of national holiday - and a less problematic one. So we only celebrate Columbus Day, that way we can appreciate science, discovery and moral clarity all on the same day. Also celebrates a culture of immigrants - Columbus was Italian by birth and Spanish by charter. I know a little bit about him from watching news specials on Columbus day on Fox - and he not only discovered a completely virgin land beyond the waves, he brought morality and culture and medicine and light and even comfortable bedding, to a people who otherwise would have been trapped forever in squalor and horror.

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Without Columbus discovering America and paving the way for John Smith, we would have never gotten Disney's Pocahontas. Can you imagine? Some people just don't think of the ramifications when attacking holidays.

 

[Stinkles]

Without Columbus discovering America and paving the way for John Smith, we would have never gotten Disney's Pocahontas. Can you imagine? Some people just don't think of the ramifications when attacking holidays.

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And obviously all that led to Avatar!





Although more seriously, you'll be relieved to hear that Columbus is being taught - at least in Seattle schools - based on actual history - they don't get into it but my 11 year old describes him as "One of a few European explorers who navigated to inhabited countries near the Americas. He was not a nice man and he brought diseases with him and they killed a lot of local people for no reason.

He didn't really discover it because people had already discovered it in the ice age and a Viking discovered Canada before him anyway. And they weren't primitive they had huge cities and technology and writing and medicine already."


I wish that was her test this week because it's actually cacti - and she thinks they have a limited finite store of water that eventually runs out like Donald Trump's human energy.

 

[McScroggz]

I do wish schools would change the way Thanksgiving is taught. My daughter is in Kindergarten and I'm essentially have to reprogram what she's learning about pilgrims. They need to learn the truth (maybe not in Kindergarten but at some point in their youth) and at least evolve the narrative to be about giving thanks and respecting one another/celebrating our differences when teaching it to young children. In terms of the day itself, to echo a lot in this thread, the "first thanksgiving" never had a place in my family's thanksgiving gatherings and never will. It's the schools where the definition needs to change, because culturally it feels like it has for the most part.

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So I'm curious, how many people celebrate Thanksgiving in some other way than basically eating a meal with friends and family or some version of that? Because I've never experience or heard of somebody I know celebrating the first Thanksgiving or anything like that and I genuinely wonder if that's much of a thing at all?

 

[Book One]

I do wish schools would change the way Thanksgiving is taught. My daughter is in Kindergarten and I'm essentially have to reprogram what she's learning about pilgrims. They need to learn the truth (maybe not in Kindergarten but at some point in their youth) and at least evolve the narrative to be about giving thanks and respecting one another/celebrating our differences when teaching it to young children. In terms of the day itself, to echo a lot in this thread, the "first thanksgiving" never had a place in my family's thanksgiving gatherings and never will. It's the schools where the definition needs to change, because culturally it feels like it has for the most part.

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yeah that's a big part of it, especially at very young ages. Finding a way educate there without obviously getting too inappropriate for such an age would go a long way to actual progress.

 

[Jesse_and_the_rippers]

I mean what I said is certainly harsh, but I've been frustrated by the wilful ignorance in this thread. As others have said, it's very reminiscent of some of the Zwarte Piet threads.

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I sense your frustration but it comes off as arguing in bad faith when people go that extreme.

 

[Seirith]

What was your favourite part of that post? The dismissal of concerns around the impact of colonialism or the attacking of the community?



This is a bad argument when it's used about people not wanting to discuss slavery, and it's a bad argument here.

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My favorite part was the truth. Era seems to tends to take everything to the extreme, like we should do nothing ever because at some point some group was treated poorly. The past cannot be changed, it is part of history and what happened is done. No one here can do anything about how people were treated 400 years ago, we can only do something about how we treat people today and in the future. All people should be treated with kindness and respect.

I spent many of my past Thanksgivings doing volunteer work with the Salvation Army holding a dinner which was free for anyone that came. After that I spent the month of December helping screen and take people into their Christmas program which gave low income families toys for their children and food for the holiday season.

I am not going to skip getting together with my family because of what happened hundreds of years ago, I am going to treat all people with respect and I am going to enjoy a day of not working, eating food and having fun with my family and the new kitten that is going to be a hyper terror all day. I am going to be thankful for the warm house I live in, the food I get to eat and that both my parents are still on this planet. I am going to be thankful my mother has been 4 years cancer free from a rare and fast spreading type of cancer than comes back in more than 50% of people.

 

[iksenpets]

We should really drop the false Pilgrims-and-Indians narrative. Do they still dress kids up as Pilgrims and Indians in school? I remember elementary school in the 90s doing this, and little kids making paper Native headdresses, which holy shit what were our teachers thinking.

We should focus on the real meaning of Thanksgiving, forcing everyone into a room with all the extended family members they hate to eat a weirdly specific meal no one ever otherwise eats because no one actually likes it that much. It's a holiday about the misery of duty, the hellishness of other people.

 

[shotopunx]

All people should be treated with kindness and respect.

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I think it treats First Nations people with kindness and respect to not whitewash their genocide.

 

[Lundren]

Era seems to tends to take everything to the extreme, like we should do nothing ever because at some point some group was treated poorly.

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Hilarious that this is what the people being offended in this thread would prefer. You want to do nothing ever to recognize what happened to people and continues to impact their lives.

You say the truth was your favourite part. The truth is that the bullshit taught in schools to this day is whitewashing what happened to the Native people of this country. The truth is that a lot of people would prefer to pretend that it didn't happen because "what can we do about it now?" What about discussing that this stuff happened, which is what many in this thread are calling for? That seems to be too much for some. Like I said in my previous post, just like when it comes to talking about reparations or the impact of slavery or colonialism.

Edit:

I think it treats First Nations people with kindness and respect to not whitewash their genocide.

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Fucking this.

Btw, I can't believe that the guy talking about "well they had wars with each other" is still around without even a warning. That was some serious "what about thugs in Chicago" dogwhistling.

 

[Jesse_and_the_rippers]

It's amazing how fragile are in that one small thing is enough to tip them over into being a right-winger because this is about the millionth incantation of this particular idea.

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I mean, yes? It IS amazing how easily people are swayed by rightwing demagoguery.

 

[GrimGrinningGuy]

What was your favourite part of that post? The dismissal of concerns around the impact of colonialism or the attacking of the community?

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You nailed it! All of the above!

 

[Deleted member 3812]

Ok, since my sentiment I posted in the OP was highly controversial with me making the suggestion (please note I was NOT urging people to stop celebrating Thanksgiving) for people to not celebrate or commemorate Thanksgiving, I have altered the OP to take that sentiment out.

I'm sorry for the controversy that sentiment has started.

 

[GungHo]

Ok, since my sentiment I posted in the OP was highly controversial with me making the suggestion (please note I was NOT urging people to stop celebrating Thanksgiving) for people to not celebrate or commemorate Thanksgiving, I have altered the OP to take that sentiment out.

I'm sorry for the controversy that sentiment has started.

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You don't need to apologize, man.

 

[Deleted member 4452]

And obviously all that led to Avatar!

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Without Avatar, we wouldn't be getting the Avatar sequels!

 

[Violence Jack]

My favorite part was the truth. Era seems to tends to take everything to the extreme, like we should do nothing ever because at some point some group was treated poorly. The past cannot be changed, it is part of history and what happened is done. No one here can do anything about how people were treated 400 years ago, we can only do something about how we treat people today and in the future. All people should be treated with kindness and respect.

I spent many of my past Thanksgivings doing volunteer work with the Salvation Army holding a dinner which was free for anyone that came. After that I spent the month of December helping screen and take people into their Christmas program which gave low income families toys for their children and food for the holiday season.

I am not going to skip getting together with my family because of what happened hundreds of years ago, I am going to treat all people with respect and I am going to enjoy a day of not working, eating food and having fun with my family and the new kitten that is going to be a hyper terror all day. I am going to be thankful for the warm house I live in, the food I get to eat and that both my parents are still on this planet. I am going to be thankful my mother has been 4 years cancer free from a rare and fast spreading type of cancer than comes back in more than 50% of people.

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This is me also. My family has a Thanksgiving tradition of feeding the homeless on Thanksgiving morning. But that doesn't seem good enough for some on here because of something that happened long ago, and basically saying that we're ignoring the plights of Indigenous people or minorities because we dare to celebrate Thanksgiving. No one in my family nor anyone that I know of celebrates that bullshit whitewashed story about the Pilgrims, and the truth should be taught in schools. I know for my child, all they do for Thanksgiving in his school is have a festival, talk about corn, and make turkey paintings. But I'm damn sure going to tell him what really happened when he's old enough to understand.

Then you have an article saying that Halloween should be cancelled because a few idiots wear culturally insensitive costumes or paint their faces to match a minority and catch hell for it. Then people shaming for celebrating 4th of July or Memorial Day. Or wandering into threads about children as an opportunity to shit on parents because we're selfish for having kids. Or driving an SUV, buying meat, or a number of other innocuous things that some on Era want to pass judgment on when it's mostly people just living their lives. And I'm not talking about the ones with the intentions of educating those unaware, I'm talking about the ones who take it a step further and flat out call them shitty people because they participate in whatever is being talked about despite not knowing a damn thing about them.

When does it end? What is the end goal? What is it that you want people to do that you think they aren't doing already?

 

[Hasseigaku]

I think it treats First Nations people with kindness and respect to not whitewash their genocide.

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Yep.

People do not want to pay proper respect---they want to be comfortable and free from guilt. To some degree this is inevitable to stay sane because if you pull apart the strings of our economy to look at the strands you'll find horror all the way down.

But people want their cake and to eat it too. They want to both deny their current celebration's connection to the mythology and to avoid bringing up the unpleasant history that has undeniable connections to the way the world is today.

It's easy to talk about it in empty platitudes about how it's just all about family and food when you have not been directly affected by the history of the holiday and what it represents.

I mean, hell, there's probably a way to give the history a new mythology that can honor everyone at play here and does not erase Native Americans.

 

[Pirate Bae]

Thread is temp locked while we go through reports, thanks for your patience

 

[Pirate Bae]

This thread is now re-opened. Going forward, please be considerate of the historical significance surrounding Thanksgiving and the genocide that took place. Even if you think "It's just a holiday!", we ask that you be considerate that many people have been affected by this, and the issue matters greatly to them. Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 3812]

This thread is now re-opened. Going forward, please be considerate of the historical significance surrounding Thanksgiving and the genocide that took place. Even if you think "It's just a holiday!", we ask that you be considerate that many people have been affected by this, and the issue matters greatly to them. Thank you.

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Thank you for reopening this thread!

 

[Pirate Bae]

Thank you for reopening this thread!

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No prob :)

 

[Deleted member 48897]

When does it end? What is the end goal? What is it that you want people to do that you think they aren't doing already?

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I can't speak to anyone else but, like, capitalism and fascism are inextricably linked, and we've still got that whole capitalism thing going on. I would like it to not be.

 

[Dyle]

People who celebrate thanksgiving as anything other than a day to chill with family and eat a ton of food and actually embrace the gross colonialism stuff are weird

 

[J-Tier]

Strangely enough, I was taught about the genocides and the atrocities of European colonialism in the Americas in school. My teacher was incredibly passionate about it and I assumed that was the norm. We spent months on the topic and often went back to it. He also helped in soup kitchens and stuff in LA on the weekends for the homeless back then (this was the 90s) and helped to reform a tribe member who was a homeless alcoholic, so maybe he wasn't your average schoolteacher.

I celebrate Thanksgiving as an Asian person in an Asian family and it's so far removed from the roots of history, that I currently think as a holiday, it's okay. The name and circumstances around the holiday as it's celebrated now lacks the reverence of the colonizers. If it was called Pilgrims Day or something, then I think we'd have a problem. I.e. Columbus day was rightfully changed to Indigenous People's Day. I don't know what we could change about Thanksgiving to make it more appropriate. As for whether the way it's celebrated is considered a denial of the atrocities--I don't think so because I'd like to believe that many of us are fully aware of the horrors that the US is founded upon and I personally empathize with it since my parents came from a country where there was mass genocide of millions. That's my perspective at this moment. It may be wrong and I'm open to being enlightened.

 

[Empyrean Cocytus]

I don't know anyone who actually uses Thanksgiving for any other reason than to eat together with friends/family and tolerate turkey for a meal

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Pretty much. It's not so much used as a celebration of the pilgrims on Plymouth Rock as it is for a family get-together, eating a shit-ton of turkey, mashed potatoes, and stuffing, and the (official) start of the holiday season.

 

[Deleted member 3812]

Strangely enough, I was taught about the genocides and the atrocities of European colonialism in the Americas in school. My teacher was incredibly passionate about it and I assumed that was the norm. We spent months on the topic and often went back to it. He also helped in soup kitchens and stuff in LA on the weekends for the homeless back then (this was the 90s) and helped to reform a tribe member who was a homeless alcoholic, so maybe he wasn't your average schoolteacher.

I celebrate Thanksgiving as an Asian person in an Asian family and it's so far removed from the roots of history, that I currently think as a holiday, it's okay. The name and circumstances around the holiday as it's celebrated now lacks the reverence of the colonizers. If it was called Pilgrims Day or something, then I think we'd have a problem. I.e. Columbus day was rightfully changed to Indigenous People's Day. I don't know what we could change about Thanksgiving to make it more appropriate. As for whether the way it's celebrated is considered a denial of the atrocities--I don't think so because I'd like to believe that many of us are fully aware of the horrors that the US is founded upon and I personally empathize with it since my parents came from a country where there was mass genocide of millions. That's my perspective at this moment. It may be wrong and I'm open to being enlightened.

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I'm glad to hear that there are some teachers who are teaching the truth around colonialism in the U.S. Sadly to say, regarding "Columbus day was rightfully changed to Indigenous People's Day." That isn't the case everywhere in the U.S. For example, Maryland still commemorates Columbus Day.

 

[Ryuelli]

I made this thread in an attempt to educate people about the actual history surrounding Thanksgiving, this history is NOT the history that was taught to people in schools:

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Elementary school teacher here, not only is "The Native Americans and Pilgrims weren't friends afterall" something that IS actively taught in schools (especially once you leave Kindergarten), but it's something I feel like I've personally known since I was the age of the kids I teach (because I was taught that same thing in multiple school systems in 2 different non-bordering states.).

Like others have said, nobody particularly cares about the origins of Thanksgiving, just it's modern traditions which are simply an excuse to get together with those you love, eat copious amounts of food, and maybe throw on some football. Was it's origins "problematic", sure. Is it currently a problematic holiday? Hell no. It's just another harvest festival, in 2019 it's no different from something like Chuseok or the Lammas Festival.

Best Thanksgiving I ever had was spent in a bar in Korea eating Turkey our favorite bartender picked up (dude was always doing what he could to make us feel at home) and getting drunk off wine with people from the US, England, Ireland, South Africa, and India. Now that's a damn good holiday.

 

[JCG]

I don't celebrate this, mostly due to not growing up in the United States, but I think it's fair to recognize the historical myths surrounding this celebration and the injustices of the colonization process (which have been properly explained by the OP and other posts). No need to cover up the past.

It's true there are many families which use this event purely as yet another opportunity for coming together and interacting, without assigning any obvious historical or even religious purpose to it.

 

[J-Tier]

I'm glad to hear that there are some teachers who are teaching the truth around colonialism in the U.S. Sadly to say, regarding "Columbus day was rightfully changed to Indigenous People's Day." That isn't the case everywhere in the U.S. For example, Maryland still commemorates Columbus Day.

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Oh wow. That's terrible. I thought that was done across the board in the US. I felt like that was the biggest no-brainer decision.

 

[Deleted member 3812]

Oh wow. That's terrible. I thought that was done across the board in the US. I felt like that was the biggest no-brainer decision.

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Unfortunately not, Columbus Day is still commemorated in many areas of the U.S.

 

[Zoe]

I'm glad to hear that there are some teachers who are teaching the truth around colonialism in the U.S. Sadly to say, regarding "Columbus day was rightfully changed to Indigenous People's Day." That isn't the case everywhere in the U.S. For example, Maryland still commemorates Columbus Day.

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That's why I think that's a more worthwhile pursuit. Some places have already made the change and you devote the full holiday to the cause. Columbus Day is just a day off of school and furniture sales.

 

[JonesiiiFromtheMoon]

I think a lot of people are underestimating how many people theme something around the happy Pilgrim mythology. It's even reinforced through cartoon specials such as Charlie Brown Thanksgiving. It's basically along the lines of engrained societal Holocaust denial.

And it's not just about that, but also the lack of remembrance of the horrors surounding the day.

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Yup, people say the meanings change, I wonder if Native Americans feel that. Its hard to give up the greedy holidays

 

[thepenguin55]

Don't worry as it has slowly been transitioning into Black Friday Eve anyway. And there you have it, I just came up with the new name for Thanksgiving.

 

[SilentPanda]

That's not the same though. It would be the same as someone condemning the abuse of minorities by police and then in the same breathe saying police should be abolished. The average person is going to agree that there are injustices happening, but not going to agree that police should be abolished. You don't always have to go to the extreme to have a dialogue about something (at least something that is honestly not going away) and that's something people should learn around here.

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By ignoring the statement of the affected native and instead going on how your own definition is the problem.

same with Remembrance Day and wearing the poppy, to some it's to remember the fallen, to other such as the Irish who experienced The Trouble and Chinese who suffered the Opimium War, they get called traitor ortrying not to fit in as a excuse to other them, ignoring their grievance with the symbol.

 

[ilium]

Erasure and recontextualization has always been the modus operandi of colonial epistemology.

 

[Hasseigaku]

Erasure and recontextualization has always been the modus operandi of colonial epistemology.

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People want to enjoy the fruits of colonization without reckoning with the consequences. They want the cool exotic foods without dealing with having to think about the places they come from.

it seems insane to me that people get more mad about being reminded about the horrors perpetrated by our ancestors than the horrors themselves.

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

I was taught this in public schools, sad to have to take that kind on education for granted.

Also, I think this thread wouldn't have been "controversial" if you didn't describe Thanksgiving as "problematic," it's clearly not about celebrating the colonial betrayal of the native people but instead a time for family and friends to come together. That being said, the history behind Thanksgiving should still be explored as a way of informing those about how it can be a painful reminder of a time in native history, and our collective understanding can liberate the holiday from its unsettling past.

 

[kittens]

Thank you OP. America is built on genocide -- continued genocide. Indigenous people are still resisting the death of their peoples and this land and planet. We must support those efforts and undermine myths like Thanksgiving.