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Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
still want to know where everybody is getting this "gamers demand massive graphical fidelity" thing from. I can't recall a time when the best looking game has ever been the highest selling one.
Every new Call of Duty that pushes incredible graphics tech with extremely low input latency? The best selling game of 2016 was Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare.

What about Ghost Recon: Wildlands? Do you think GTA V would be topping the charts in 2017 if it had graphics on par with Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas?
 

Aokiji

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,265
Los Angeles
Many of the top selling games could honestly be argued as having "the best" graphics subjectively though, being amongst the best is par for the course, and being notably below that is a cause for mockery. By "bad" graphics, I mostly just meant games that basically nobody would throw into a graphics war willingly. That definitely would apply to something like Marvel vs Capcom Infinite, and not just the faces. I won't link to the GAF thread, but it was being compared with Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, lol. And most games are judged on non-final code. Final code may change people's perceptions, either for the better (in GTS' case) or for the worse (Ubisoft in general). But the fact remains that everyone goes nuts when something like Horizon Zero Dawn, Quantum Break, Spiderman or God of War are shown, even with unfinished code... whereas Gran Turismo Sport received a much more negative welcome, almost entirely as a result of how it looked, before other aspects of the game were even considered. This applies even to games that don't necessarily look "bad", but don't match up to the high graphical expectations for a AAA title, like Halo 5.

Recore not being a AAA game is basically entirely the point. It didn't look like a AAA game. We didn't even need the actual details of its budget. And being stylised is fine in general, often even applauded. It's when being stylised draws comparison with graphics with a previous generation (without being intentionally retro), it becomes an issue.

that's fair. I just think they need to stop trying to "blame" us per se. it is common place to hear "gameplay matters most" when we know it is graphics that usually sell a game, hence Horizon etc. General perception is based on graphics, i just think they need to realize that cutting edge graphics are not expected of every game so to say "graphical expectations are a blame is lazy, especially when we're seeing those in the indie space make phenomenal games without that AAA graphical budget
 

Aokiji

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,265
Los Angeles
Every new Call of Duty that pushes incredible graphics tech with extremely low input latency? The best selling game of 2016 was Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare.

What about Ghost Recon: Wildlands? Do you think GTA V would be topping the charts in 2017 if it had graphics on par with Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas?

CoD sells based on the name. It is not the best looking game. Wild Lands again a great looking game but it isnt setting the bar for graphics. And really? Comparing GTAV to SA? that's not even close to what we're talking about.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
CoD sells based on the name. It is not the best looking game. Wild Lands again a great looking game but it isnt setting the bar for graphics. And really? Comparing GTAV to SA? that's not even close to what we're talking about.
that's fair. I just think they need to stop trying to "blame" us per se. it is common place to hear "gameplay matters most" when we know it is graphics that usually sell a game, hence Horizon etc. General perception is based on graphics, i just think they need to realize that cutting edge graphics are not expected of every game so to say "graphical expectations are a blame is lazy, especially when we're seeing those in the indie space make phenomenal games without that AAA graphical budget

Horizon has great gameplay and story...not sure what you are getting at. It was the gameplay and concept, not graphics why people were excited for Horizon.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
Graphics don't usually "Sell" a game at all. All gams look great in 2017, what sells is a well rounded game with appeal. Graphics are just the cherry and helps , nothing more. I mean switch is selling well..it isn;t for it's raphics, same with minecraft, PUBG, etc..
 

John Omaha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,867
The best selling games aren't the most graphically impressive for the most part. Maybe Western publishers should work harder to differentiate their games through great game design instead of spending so much money on impressive graphics.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,212
that's fair. I just think they need to stop trying to "blame" us per se. it is common place to hear "gameplay matters most" when we know it is graphics that usually sell a game, hence Horizon etc. General perception is based on graphics, i just think they need to realize that cutting edge graphics are not expected of every game so to say "graphical expectations are a blame is lazy, especially when we're seeing those in the indie space make phenomenal games without that AAA graphical budget

Cutting-edge graphics aren't required for every game, but they are often expected for the sorts of games usually being referred to in these conversations (AAA, single-player games). You can make a game with a lower budget, and less graphical aspirations (like say Super Lucky's Tale or Gravity Rush 2), but it'll almost invariably be considered a different tier of game entirely, and then when a Horizon or God of War is brought up, they won't generally be accepted as examples of single-player offerings on a competing platform. Something like Ryse or The Order 1886 will be though, even if received more negatively overall, because they look the part.

Horizon has great gameplay and story...not sure what you are getting at. It was the gameplay and concept, not graphics why people were excited for Horizon.

Nobody new basically anything about Horizon's story, and very little about its gameplay during its E3 reveal (in fact, the gameplay being received so well come review time took most by surprise). The initial hype was very much driven by its graphics, and how it was considered the best looking game ever at the time. Same with the small E3 2016's short Spiderman announce trailer that shows precisely zero actual gameplay.

It's not so much that graphics sell a game. Good graphics are basically an expectation. Failing to have impressive graphics can very much "unsell" a game though. Look at the difference in excitement for Shenmue III from it being announced, to when recent trailers showed the graphics not looking too hot. You immediately had a bunch of backers expressing their regret at kickstarting it, based on the graphics alone.

Graphics don't usually "Sell" a game at all. All gams look great in 2017, what sells is a well rounded game with appeal. Graphics are just the cherry and helps , nothing more. I mean switch is selling well..it isn;t for it's raphics, same with minecraft, PUBG, etc..

Nintendo in general is the exception of the industry, and it helps that their typical style of game requires less in terms of hardware grunt to shine (throw a Wii U game through Dolphin, and in many cases they would get by today). More importantly though, outside of NSMB and Wii Sports, Nintendo's most successful games typically represent the graphical pinnacles of their consoles, and in the Switches case are basically the best graphics portable games in existence.

Minecraft, PUBG, League of Legends, Counter-Strike, Hearthstone, and the vast majority of other games you could mention with less of a focus on graphics typically fall into the service-based games that aren't held to the same graphical standard that most single-player games are.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
I don't agree at all....again, pretty much every game today looks great. The concept, setting, fighting big dinos were the main draw, and no, it was not a shock when it reviewed well, it ws clear from just previews and early impressions Horizon was going to be good. The only exception were the "LOL guerilla sucks" troll. COD is the worst looking shooter out there. It isn't just service games, pretty much all the biggest selling games are not graphical marvels.....

The point is...if Horizon was just graphics it would not have sold like it has, the fact it is a great game is why it sold very well for a new ip. I mean Killzone is a perfect example, graphics do not sell a game alone in 2017..at all. Name me one game that sold because of graphics and nothing else?

It takes far more than just graphics to sell a game in 2017. If all that sells are graphics like one poster said, I assume Xbox one X will be the best selling console gong forward?
 
Last edited:

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,990
The console market is too small to support AAA single player games with a few exceptions. Thats why you see lootboxes and more service oriented games. We need more platforms to be mega succesfull. Switch is doing well and will probably explode in sales in the upcoming years, but Nintendo machines havent been the most lucrative platforms for M rated content. I think Nintendo is much more open to the idea now then ever, though, so who knows how that will turn out. Xbox should follow Nintendo in this and launch a hybrid platform so that hardeare sales are big enough to support all kinds of games.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
It doesn't work that way......Nintendo is great at what they do. The same strategy would bomb for MS. Do you really think an Xbox hybrid Console/Handheld would be a winner? It would sell worse than Xbox one.
 

Deleted member 12352

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,203
Most publishers seem to manage to produce singleplayer games with no issues. Seems like MS is one of the few who have proven incapable of offering good single player experiences in recent years, so of course in true MS fashion, they're gonna downplay the relevance of singleplayer games as much as they can.

Remember when Phil Spencer was trashing singleplayer only games earlier this year at the same time Horizon and Zelda were tearing up the charts? Yeah.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,286
How can say this when you have current examples of single player games (Crash, Persona 5, Automata) being huge hits ,while definitely having reasonable budgets?

Provide quality and it will sell.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
The console market is too small to support AAA single player games with a few exceptions. Thats why you see lootboxes and more service oriented games. We need more platforms to be mega succesfull. Switch is doing well and will probably explode in sales in the upcoming years, but Nintendo machines havent been the most lucrative platforms for M rated content. I think Nintendo is much more open to the idea now then ever, though, so who knows how that will turn out. Xbox should follow Nintendo in this and launch a hybrid platform so that hardeare sales are big enough to support all kinds of games.

The console market is fine, we see lootboxes and GaaS games because third party publishers have an insatiable greed that cannot be sustained by merely selling tens of millions of $60 games and there's no laws or regulations preventing them from exploiting loot crates or microtransactions.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
COD is the worst looking shooter out there.
Compared to what? Infinite Warfare is a graphically beautiful game. Call of Duty always has bleeding edge graphical technology while balancing a 60fps target on consoles with industry-low input latency. Infinite Warfare has 40ms input latency on PS4. That's an incredible technical achievement. Not necessarily a graphical one, but a testament to how they balance graphics with latency.

Call of Duty: Black Ops II is from 2012, and still looks fantastic today. It's a mixture of innovative technology and top notch art design.

 
Oct 25, 2017
137
I think Shannon is pretty clear that nobody is saying single player games are going away, but because the money right now is on microtransactions in multiplayer games, the industry is struggling to justify pitching new single player games. In particular, since many of the big companies are publicly traded, they need to justify them to their stockholders.

The worst case scenario that is actually inching close to complete reality is most single player games will drop in scale in terms of budget/ambition, with only a select few (Nintendo, Atlus, THQ Nordic) continuing to make them at AAA budgets since it's their bread and butter. And even then they won't be as big as the online multiplayer games.

But anyway, that's the real worry. Not that single player games will disappear in a flash, but they'll just stop making them big.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,286
Complicated as in it's hard to find a way to milk more $$$ outta players that isn't intrusive or borderline predatory to offset rising development costs?

I don't think all games must be photorealistic, instead they should push for art direction and use some of those remaining cash to create unique gameplay moments rather than just copy-pasting the same stuff over and over again.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,331
Back when Nintendo decided to stop competing to have the most powerful console after the GameCube generation seemed wrong at the time, but right now in the end it looks like they were right, when it comes to needing to scale back graphics for dev costs
 

Shingi_70

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
Back when Nintendo decided to stop competing to have the most powerful console after the GameCube generation seemed wrong at the time, but right now in the end it looks like they were right, when it comes to needing to scale back graphics for dev costs

Nintendo was always right in this regard. Hell the Wii was the best selling console during its time and was a lifeboat for developers and no one jumped on it. AA died and what was left fled to handhelds and now we're stuck with AAA and indie, with very few in between even if AA titles are slowly coming back.
 

MagnesG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
784
That's the price for pursuing too much photorealisitc graphics, while sacrificing new innovative core gameplay for the sake of easy revenues.
Gameplay needs to be real, real different to compensate with lower graphic fidelity in order to succeed.

If not, safer approach would be maintaining the core gameplay with god-tier graphics, and see how much longer until we got drown on 'samey' type generic bullshit. Then blame the society for not buying.

Bahhh
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,990
The console market is fine, we see lootboxes and GaaS games because third party publishers have an insatiable greed that cannot be sustained by merely selling tens of millions of $60 games and there's no laws or regulations preventing them from exploiting loot crates or microtransactions.
I dont think so. The lootbox and Gaas model are pretty much the only way to sell games in a massive quantity. This is supported by data. The market is not big and diverse enough to support every type of game. The whole middle ground has dissapeared. Its either high budget or indie. Something like the Switch does seem to indicate that there is room for more mid tier efforts but that has het to be proven. Dont expect much single player AAA stuff on xbox or ps4 going forward. It just isnt going to happen.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
I dont think so. The lootbox and Gaas model are pretty much the only way to sell games in a massive quantity. This is supported by data. The market is not big and diverse enough to support every type of game. The whole middle ground has dissapeared. Its either high budget or indie. Something like the Switch does seem to indicate that there is room for more mid tier efforts but that has het to be proven. Dont expect much single player AAA stuff on xbox or ps4 going forward. It just isnt going to happen.

All i was saying is that the major publishers dont need MTs and lootboxes to be filthy rich.
 

ManatuBear

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
239
Portugal
My concern is that GaaS will evolve to SaaG (in a way, not literally).
At least we will always have indies and midle-tier games (like Hellblade) for single player experiences.
My favorite game this year, so far, is Thimbleweed Park. I don't need great graphics to have fun!
 

Lurcharound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,068
UK
Why do so many people - including many in the industry - equate SP with huge AAA budgets? I feel the issue lies right there in trying to produce hugely expensive SP games with goal of matching big MP games. I've got PC, PS4 and Switch and TBH there's more SP games than I could possibly play.

There clearly remains a place for AAA SP too (Horizon and Witcher prove that conclusively) but there's likely not room for 20 of those a year which I believe is what troubles the big publishers who're trying to out do each other and see AAA SP as more a zero sum game

Realistically you can have AAA SP with decent MP and succeed (U4 and TLOU for example from Sony) or you can have AAA SP RPG if you nail the content and enjoyability (Witcher) or you can have AAA SP still if you manage marketing, PR and of course game content well (Horizon).

There's plenty of room for lower budget titles though as SOMA, Inside, Talos Principle and many, many others show.

This does always feel like a concern that console centric analysts have (even though I think there's plenty of evidence on both Sony and Nintendo - less so MS if feels like - that there's a decent market there too).

Companies like EA apparently trying to make everything sell like FIFA or CoD doesn't help either.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,990
All i was saying is that the major publishers dont need MTs and lootboxes to be filthy rich.
Im dont like loot boxes at al, and I agree that it doesnt have to be this way but the reality is that it is very risky to publish big games these days. The budgets are insanely high. One flop can have a very negative effect. That is why you see a natural pressure on publishers to lower the risk by making sure they earn very huge amounts on the games that are very succesful.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,172
Hope Shannon's looking at Odyssey because I'm like 80% sure its budget is a lot less than what Microsoft holds the bar for on AAA single player experiences.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
Hope Shannon's looking at Odyssey because I'm like 80% sure its budget is a lot less than what Microsoft holds the bar for on AAA single player experiences.

I'm always amazed that publishers dont at least attempt to try and emulate Nintendo's style of game design. For instance, basically everything in Mario can be interacted with in some way, it's not filled with thousands of expensive AAA assets that are just for show and literally nothing else.
 

Shingi_70

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
Why do so many people - including many in the industry - equate SP with huge AAA budgets? I feel the issue lies right there in trying to produce hugely expensive SP games with goal of matching big MP games. I've got PC, PS4 and Switch and TBH there's more SP games than I could possibly play.

There clearly remains a place for AAA SP too (Horizon and Witcher prove that conclusively) but there's likely not room for 20 of those a year which I believe is what troubles the big publishers who're trying to out do each other and see AAA SP as more a zero sum game

Realistically you can have AAA SP with decent MP and succeed (U4 and TLOU for example from Sony) or you can have AAA SP RPG if you nail the content and enjoyability (Witcher) or you can have AAA SP still if you manage marketing, PR and of course game content well (Horizon).

There's plenty of room for lower budget titles though as SOMA, Inside, Talos Principle and many, many others show.

This does always feel like a concern that console centric analysts have (even though I think there's plenty of evidence on both Sony and Nintendo - less so MS if feels like - that there's a decent market there too).

Companies like EA apparently trying to make everything sell like FIFA or CoD doesn't help either.


Well the Major problem seems to be that outside of a few instances the games in the market that do fall into the AA, are either priced out of the market poorly marketed, or not supported by the similar fact they aren't AAA games. Problems aside look how negatively received Knack 2 and Recore were and those were both games from major publishers that wear their AAness of their sleeve. On the flip look at games Like agents of Mayham, or the upcoming Biomutant that probably should be $40-$50 but are coming in a full retail $60.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Nintendo was always right in this regard. Hell the Wii was the best selling console during its time and was a lifeboat for developers and no one jumped on it. AA died and what was left fled to handhelds and now we're stuck with AAA and indie, with very few in between even if AA titles are slowly coming back.
The problem with the Wii and DS alike was poor 3rd party sales. Very few people were actually buying Wii/DS games that weren't made by Nintendo or one of a small handful of developers.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,708
United Kingdom
It's a shame MS feel this way, I'd love to see more AAA single player games from them. Sony and Nintendo and some third party devs still have no problem making and selling single player games, so I'm not 100% on board with what they are saying.

Clearly MS have issues to work out, Quantum Break and ReCore didn't set the world on fire, Fable and Scalebound being cancelled didn't help either and they still haven't invested in new studio's like they said they might do.

It would be nice if they had something like their own Horizon but not every game has to have a massive budget, as long as the game is made well and plays well then they should still be able to provide a good single player experience for Xbox owners.
 

BasilZero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,346
Omni
MP really has gotten bigger over the last few years but I think we'll see SP games still but more focus on MP.

Look at FFXV for an example.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,212
I don't agree at all....again, pretty much every game today looks great. The concept, setting, fighting big dinos were the main draw, and no, it was not a shock when it reviewed well, it ws clear from just previews and early impressions Horizon was going to be good. The only exception were the "LOL guerilla sucks" troll. COD is the worst looking shooter out there. It isn't just service games, pretty much all the biggest selling games are not graphical marvels.....

The point is...if Horizon was just graphics it would not have sold like it has, the fact it is a great game is why it sold very well for a new ip. I mean Killzone is a perfect example, graphics do not sell a game alone in 2017..at all. Name me one game that sold because of graphics and nothing else?

It takes far more than just graphics to sell a game in 2017. If all that sells are graphics like one poster said, I assume Xbox one X will be the best selling console gong forward?

You are misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm not saying that good graphics alone will make a game a success. I'm saying that in many cases good graphics are pretty much a requirement and expectation for a AAA singleplayer game. Saying "pretty much every game today looks great" is exactly the point. They all look great because they need to in order to not be automatically dismissed from AAA discussion, and many people's consideration. Horizon absolutely was being lauded for its graphical prowess on reveal. Yes, there was interest in the concept also, but you could say something like that for the reveal of Recore also. The difference in graphical presentation made a huge difference, and this can be easily seen from simply going back and reading posts that were being made at the time.

Also Killzone doesn't have a release in 2017, but Shadowfall doing over 2 million by March 2014 (which I believe actually made it the top selling launch exclusive at that point) makes it probably not the best example you could use.

How can say this when you have current examples of single player games (Crash, Persona 5, Automata) being huge hits ,while definitely having reasonable budgets?

Provide quality and it will sell.

Persona 5 and Nier Automata aren't huge hits from the view of a huge publisher. Countless IP have been killed for having their level of sales.
 

Vishmarx

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,043
Im sure its been said but every game, as a console dev, shouldn't be about making profits.
If your competitors can sustain and succeed, so can you. And this doesn't explain your teams failing at big multiplayer games either
 

MagnesG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
784
The problem with the Wii and DS alike was poor 3rd party sales. Very few people were actually buying Wii/DS games that weren't made by Nintendo or one of a small handful of developers.

That was quite subjective actually, few reasons to consider such as much inferior ports, lower sales expectations (fanbase) or sub-par marketing/timeline. Or maybe the game itself sucks hahaha

Aside from limited specs hindering game developments, are there any other reasons sales from 3rd parties became much lower compared to other related platforms?
I mean, from what I see couple of 3rd party series suffered pretty much the same due to all the reasons above, even from main PS consoles.
They're more prone to rehash same thing while keeping standard graphics for easy money.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
That was quite subjective actually, few reasons to consider such as much inferior ports, lower sales expectations (fanbase) or sub-par marketing/timeline. Or maybe the game itself sucks hahaha

Aside from limited specs hindering game developments, are there any other reasons sales from 3rd parties became much lower compared to other related platforms?
I mean, from what I see couple of 3rd party series suffered pretty much the same due to all the reasons above, even from main PS consoles.
They're more prone to rehash same thing while keeping standard graphics for easy money.
The bluntest way of looking at it is that the kind of people who bought Wiis only bought party games and games that had Mario on the cover. There is a massive gulf in sales between those kind of games and everything else. Same with the DS. I think people really overestimate how well DS games sold. Most of them sold very poorly.
 

MagnesG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
784
The bluntest way of looking at it is that the kind of people who bought Wiis only bought party games and games that had Mario on the cover. There is a massive gulf in sales between those kind of games and everything else. Same with the DS. I think people really overestimate how well DS games sold. Most of them sold very poorly.

Yeah that's an undeniable truth albeit sad. It is hard to make direct comparison to other platform, but I'm still a little bit on positive side about projected sales.
I believe few AA/AAA 3rd party titles (such as ports) from said platforms bombed due to their unavailability to deliver pleasant experiences which had been promised.
Regarding DS games, notable issues appeared like some of the Japanese devs, where they do suffer lower sales than expected, but it still on track considering much smaller budget / development time.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
But they don't..because most of the best selling games are among the worst looking. minecraft, pubg....
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
2 million for a triple AAA game is not exactly a big number sales wise, in fact that's fairly average these days. Also, shadowfall was a launch title, and a known franchise why it sold that much not the graphics.
 

Allseeingeye

Banned for having an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
It os obvious MS has very little interest in making single player games, they are all about profit maximization...the problem is that doesn't work in gaming, you need to take risks as a platform holder. MS simply has no appetite for it.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Bad Single player game fails = "wow, guess singleplayer games are dead"

Meanwhile they ignore numerous success stories. Is BotW single player? How about Cuphead?
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
2 million for a triple AAA game is not exactly a big number sales wise, in fact that's fairly average these days. Also, shadowfall was a launch title, and a known franchise why it sold that much not the graphics.

Nier Automata and Persona 5 are not AAA. AAA this gen means 100 million dollars to make the game, and another 100 million to market it.
 

Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,895
I feel it's harder to sell DLC for single player games, especially when it's DLC that's only related to aesthetics.

That takes out a big chunk of continuous economic viability when it comes to post release of a game.

Even multiplayer games that are popular, but don't sell as well as some single player games, DLC will be something that can still bring in more revenue.

I feel that DLC for aesthetics is also not as desirable for single player games as what's really the point of getting them if you can't show off to others? I mean it's cool, but doesn't really add a whole lot to the experience outside of looks.

DLC related to extra game content are great, but that's also going to take more time and resources to develop them, and it will be either hit or miss, or it'll take awhile after the games been released.

I personally enjoy the single game experience more for the gaming, but enjoy the multiplayer aspect more for just the social aspect and not as much as the game content. Yeah, I know, sounds like a no brainer, but for some people I know they can only enjoy a game if there's a social aspect for it, so it's not always so cut and dry.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
What do you consider bad. Plenty of games in the 80 range fail. If it takes having a game be 90+ to succeed, that's saying something

I'll be honest with ya, I don't care about critic reviews. People think a game is horrible when it gets 70s.

These guys also get advertising money from publishers and have to rely on publishers to get early access to games. I've also just never cared about critic reviews anyway.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,942
I'll be honest with ya, I don't care about critic reviews. People think a game is horrible when it gets 70s.

These guys also get advertising money from publishers and have to rely on publishers to get early access to games. I've also just never cared about critic reviews anyway.
I generally don't either but it gives some kind of grounding when discussions about a games quality arises.

I don't take reviews seriously when Forza Horizon 2 and sunset overdrive both got low 80's
 

quesalupa

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,781
US
I have a feeling Sony will be doubling down on their SP exclusives. While 3rd parties will focus on the more lucrative ventures, Sony can draw people into their ecosystem with their big budget showcases. Microsoft is all over the place so I'm not really sure what functional approach they'll take to the changing market.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,416
The English Wilderness
The graphics argument is really one of demographics. Nintendo games can get away with their style/quality of graphics because they're aimed at a different audience to games like COD. Same with stuff like P5, whose anime stylings will alienate a lot of people.

Imagine if Bloodborne was exactly the same game, but it's assets replaced with something out of a kids' cartoon. It's going to appeal to a completely different audience even if the actual gameplay is identical.

I think the drive for realistic graphics is also a form of validation, too: games are still trapped in that adolescent limbo where they desperately want people to take them as a serious form of entertainment, still afraid people look down on them as childish bleep-bop distractions. It's an insecurity a number of gamers themselves still have, and so the cycle feeds itself. You even argue that the push for "social" gaming over single-player is a further attempt to "lift" games up over the "shut-in loser" stereotype that is still prevalent in a lot of places.
 

Lurcharound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,068
UK
Well the Major problem seems to be that outside of a few instances the games in the market that do fall into the AA, are either priced out of the market poorly marketed, or not supported by the similar fact they aren't AAA games. Problems aside look how negatively received Knack 2 and Recore were and those were both games from major publishers that wear their AAness of their sleeve. On the flip look at games Like agents of Mayham, or the upcoming Biomutant that probably should be $40-$50 but are coming in a full retail $60.
Yah pricing is another issue - good point I should have mentioned that too. I also look at the apparent good success of the Ratchet and Clank remake at lower price point as well as some other recent examples.

TBH it feels like a lot of publishers don't perform basic price elasticity analysis combined with attribute analysis of the games at their selling price point. They seem so wedded to the idea of a common price point particularly for console orientated releases. On PC it's been shown that it's fine to have lots of different price points aligned to the titles genre and attributes (is it SP, what length is it, etc). I guess the heavy retail side of console (which is still where the majority of titles seem to sell) leans to having simple price structure but as more titles see larger digital audiences publishers should be willing to be more flexible. Retail could easily support 3 or 4 clear tiers from $60 down to say $20 at launch.

I feel a lot of publishers try and hit a big launch spike then assume there's only a relatively small tail at a vastly reduced price but again that's just following historic trends vs setting new ones. A lot of more AA and in particular SP titles could have better tails with better pricing and keeping the title moderately visible on social media (which doesn't have to cost much at all to do). Again PC market I feel shows how this can work and how games total LTD and profits can be much better with better lifecycle management.
 

TalonJH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,875
Louisville, KY
I spend 90% of my gaming time playing a MMO. That being said, when I'm not playing that, I prefer SP narrative focused games. I don't know what I would do if they died.