Slate: "Is Pete Buttigieg Just Another White Male Candidate, or Does His Gayness Count as Diversity?"

jph139

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Oct 25, 2017
3,570
Massachusetts
There's a discussion you could have about the difference between visible and invisible minorities, but that's not something the author seems interested in having. And even if she did, I don't think it's a distinction that really applies to politicians or other public figures.
 

Mercury Fred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,079
Lol fuck this article, this writer and this sentiment.

Yes, gay white men have a lot of privilege, that's important to remember. We also face discrimination, threats of violence, bear the brunt of institutionalized homophobia and face the psychological trials of coming out (or not). No other minority but LGBT people face the real possibility of rejection from their family simply because of who they are.

Personally, I'd love a black woman pres as I do believe that representation matters. And black women are the backbone of the party. I'm still not sure about Kamala though, but I digress.
 

krazen

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Oct 27, 2017
1,025
Gentrified Brooklyn
Billy Porter, the actor on Pose, kind of summed up what I've seen in NYC in a Vulture interview a few months back as it grows more affluent:

https://www.vulture.com/2018/07/billy-porter-pose-aids-crisis-interview.html


For me, as a 48-year-old gay man, when I came out, we had to fight for our lives. Because the fight was so intense — and this is what this show has taught me — the T in LGBTQ was almost invisible. The fight was about something else. I equate it to the idea of the civil rights movement, and Martin Luther King Jr. and his relationship with Bayard Rustin. He was the gay man that taught him and set him up to be the civil rights leader that he was, and was erased from the conversation because that wasn’t the fight.

I think there’s a little bit of that — no, let me just say it — there’s a lot of that in the gay culture, especially the cisgender, white, rich gay culture. I sat on the board of the Empire State Pride Agenda for six years, and that’s an organization that really was influential in lobbying and fighting for gay rights, during the AIDS crisis all the way up through marriage equality. When these white, cisgender, rich boys got marriage equality and the organization’s focus turned to transgender rights, those motherfuckers closed their checkbooks, and the organization of 25 years had to close. We need take all that energy and focus, and shift it on to those who are less than us. That’s how it works. Internal vigilance is the price of liberty.
Many poor and POC focused queer spaces are getting killed in the city, and considering how gay friendly those neighborhoods are, and who are the main ones sprouting 'NIMBY' stuff at community meetings..."all skinfolk ain't my kinfolk" as far a sexuality is concerned it seems. Similar to any other minority running for any position Ill be wary until they actually profess to politics that support what we assume they believe in and not give them a pass because they happen to LOOK like they should give a fuck about their (and all) people suffering under the boot.
 

Iloelemen

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Oct 27, 2017
1,323
Good lord this toxic mess of an article just from the title alone.

As for the discussion on the LGBT community, it still faces heavy discrimination. Heck, some countries can even get you killed by law for being queer.

As for the discussion on gay men and gender expression, we still have the problem of stereotyping and the utter disbelief of homophobes regarding the existence of masculine gay dudes. Gay men are diverse and you can't categorize them based on your preconceived notions from homophobic portrayals in media by straight men from decades ago. You can't just erase the validity of masculine gays.

But at the same time, this really saddens me but fem gays exist too and they face discrimination even within the community. They've been the stereotype used as the butt of jokes in homophobic media, and within the gay community they face femmephobia, especially from those straight-acting.
 

M52B28

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I don't think that gay white men share equal struggles as gay black men or black people in general.

It's strange seeing that idea of equal or more severe struggle being passed around.
 

Mercury Fred

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Oct 25, 2017
2,079
I don't think that gay white men share equal struggles as gay black men or black people in general.

It's strange seeing that idea of equal or more severe struggle being passed around.
Oh?

Here's what Coretta Scott King had to say about that.

Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.
 

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
23,012
I don't think that gay white men share equal struggles as gay black men or black people in general.

It's strange seeing that idea of equal or more severe struggle being passed around.
No one is saying they're equivalent. But being masculine-presenting, male, and/or white does not erase the issues one faces for being gay and there are specific ways in which these will intersect which will be different for white gay men, black gay men, black gay women, etc. that result in a wide variety of differing experiences and differing issues that need to be addressed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,002
canada
Being gay doesnt mean shit all if you arent personally for diversity and against the status quo

Theres a few secretly gay high ranking conservatives in Canada who are anti gay publically.

All that matters is policy, if your policy just continues the status quo of oppression then it dont matter who or what you are
 

Moppeh

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Oct 28, 2017
1,132
Being gay doesnt mean shit all if you arent personally for diversity and against the status quo

Theres a few secretly gay high ranking conservatives in Canada who are anti gay publically.

All that matters is policy, if your policy just continues the status quo of oppression then it dont matter who or what you are
Out of curiosity, what conservative MPs are you talking about?
 

Jimmypython

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Oct 27, 2017
334
First openly gay man major presidential candidate IS a historical thing, and should not be ignored. But Buttigieg is far FAR more than a candidate merely running on his "gayness". His ideas, intellectual excellence and personable social skills are the things people should also focus on.
 

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
23,012
Being gay doesnt mean shit all if you arent personally for diversity and against the status quo

Theres a few secretly gay high ranking conservatives in Canada who are anti gay publically.

All that matters is policy, if your policy just continues the status quo of oppression then it dont matter who or what you are
Buttigieg is not a right wing politician.
 

Moppeh

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Oct 28, 2017
1,132
Its not my place to out them, not to mention Id rather not get in trouble lmao

but the points the same, doesnt matter who you are if you just continue the status quo
Ah, sorry, I thought you might have gleaned this info from some available sources, but I gather you must have this insight by some other means.

But yes, that is definitely correct. Unfortunately, being any sort of minority doesn't mean the individual will be dedicated to addressing the struggles that minorities face. Though, luckily, that doesn't appear to apply to Buttigieg. He has said that he wants equal rights for LGBTQ+ people.
 

NinjaDBL

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Oct 27, 2017
594
I also want to touch on something the author is doing here- she is conflating the terms "Queer" and "Gay" as though they are synonymous. They are not.

"Queer" is an umbrella term used because the LGBT+ community consists of gay men, lesbian women, bi/pan individuals, trans men, trans women, etc. and is a collection of smaller communities that, while overlapping in many areas, often have distinct individual subcommunities, vastly different patterns of association and personal history, and incredibly different wants and personal needs. Using "queer" to refer to the overall LGBT+ community and culture is perfectly fine, and I get that some people like to use the word to self-ID, but when you are talking about a specific individual, it's completely inappropriate to use the word to describe them without them having explicitly referred to themselves as such. Buttigieg identifies as a gay man, and there is not singular "Queer Identity" that gay men, trans women, trans men, etc. all stem from- orientation and Identity are two very different axes that happen to intersect.

By using the term in this manner, the author is trying to pretend that her experiences as a non-straight and/or non-cis woman are equivalent and relatable to Pete's experiences and difficulties as a gay man, when this is absolutely not the case. We use rainbow imagery for a reason- gay/trans/etc people come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and places on the masc/fem spectrum. Those differences in lived experiences are very real, and recognizing them is absolutely critical to actually being supportive of others in the community.
Wonderfully said.
 

DrROBschiz

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Oct 25, 2017
7,975
Yay for liberals eating themselves alive instead of banding together

sure Booty Keg is white and likely well off to an extent but hes not the damn enemy

what the fuck was the point of this article. Would love to have this conversation after we get the monster in chief out of office but I must be dreaming thinking we could rally together that smoothly
 

Tap In

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Oct 28, 2017
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The Dems are gonna fuck this up again with our damned purity testing aren't we. Jesus Christ dems, get your shit together and listen to the message and See the strategy it will take to beat the orange douche in a general and grow the fuck up.


Buttigieg is on point and articles like these don't so much cause a problem as it represents the problem that the party as a whole has in not seeing the big picture and focusing on stupid shit.
 

Kenai

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Oct 26, 2017
797
I also want to touch on something the author is doing here- she is conflating the terms "Queer" and "Gay" as though they are synonymous. They are not.

"Queer" is an umbrella term used because the LGBT+ community consists of gay men, lesbian women, bi/pan individuals, trans men, trans women, etc. and is a collection of smaller communities that, while overlapping in many areas, often have distinct individual subcommunities, vastly different patterns of association and personal history, and incredibly different wants and personal needs. Using "queer" to refer to the overall LGBT+ community and culture is perfectly fine, and I get that some people like to use the word to self-ID, but when you are talking about a specific individual, it's completely inappropriate to use the word to describe them without them having explicitly referred to themselves as such. Buttigieg identifies as a gay man, and there is not singular "Queer Identity" that gay men, trans women, trans men, etc. all stem from- orientation and Identity are two very different axes that happen to intersect.

By using the term in this manner, the author is trying to pretend that her experiences as a non-straight and/or non-cis woman are equivalent and relatable to Pete's experiences and difficulties as a gay man, when this is absolutely not the case. We use rainbow imagery for a reason- gay/trans/etc people come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and places on the masc/fem spectrum. Those differences in lived experiences are very real, and recognizing them is absolutely critical to actually being supportive of others in the community.
Times like this I wish I could rate up posts, well said
 

Jeb

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Mar 14, 2018
877
I don’t know much about Pete.


What’s his position on Palestine and Aipac?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,002
canada
Buttigieg is not a right wing politician.
I wasnt really talking about him just the idea that ppl of minority backgrounds bring diverse policy

See this post for clarification

But yes, that is definitely correct. Unfortunately, being any sort of minority doesn't mean the individual will be dedicated to addressing the struggles that minorities face. Though, luckily, that doesn't appear to apply to Buttigieg. He has said that he wants equal rights for LGBTQ+ people.
This dude may bring better policy which is good, but my main argument is that its not guaranteed a minority will do so
 

Nerokis

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Oct 25, 2017
1,521
Pete does have white male privilege. You can see that, for example, in how people talk about his intellect vs. Elizabeth Warren’s; the latter was a top professor, is throwing out substantial policy after substantial policy, clearly radiates intelligence, but Pete is the one who has quickly developed the reputation as an intellectual heavyweight.

You can also see it in how people talk about his electability. Becoming Mayor of South Bend isn’t a huge feat for a Democrat, but the mantle of The One Who Can Unite Us was passed to him so seamlessly.

All that said, the fact that he’s gay and married to a man is definitely meaningful. It probably hasn’t fully sunk in because that aforementioned privilege is so clearly shining through in the context of the primary. Imagine what a step forward it would be to have a gay president of the United States. In a country and in a world that is still very much gripped by toxic conceptions of straightness and homophobia, that would be amazing.

Not enough to justify voting for him in and of itself, though.
 

SageShinigami

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Oct 27, 2017
13,756
If you want to attack Buttigieg on his stances, I'm fine with that. That's not what this did. This decided since the guy is "straight acting" he's not gay enough. It even insults your intelligence by doing that, then immediately telling you that's not what it's doing.
 

EightBitNate

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Nov 2, 2017
1,644
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/anti-lgbtq-hate-crimes-rose-3-percent-17-fbi-finds-n936166

Gay men are the victims of the majority of federally reported anti-LGBT hate crimes. (Not to conflate this with proportional rates, where if memory serves trans individuals have the highest % of incidents relative to their population size.)
Yeah I googled and found similar statistics but I was unsure about the “killed everyday” part. Still absolutely awful, but hate crimes aren’t necessarily murder. I don’t really have a frame of reference but I thought everyday seemed kinda high.
 

KefkaFFVI

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Aug 4, 2018
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I mean gayness counts as diversity and he is a white cis man. Like, those two things are not mutually exclusive...

Like, yes, there is a discussion to be had that cis white men have a lot of privilege and how some of they use that privlige to hurt the most vulnerable LGBTQ folks and other non-queer oppressed oflks. But life isn't easy just because you're an abled cis white men, either. Diversuity isn't a linear spectrum where you can neatly place your privilege by earning/losing diversity points, some areas in life are harder because of your sexuality and if you're another marginalized group those difficulties tend to be multiplicative. The articles seems to suggest that abled cis white gay men have it easy enoguh, to the point that oppression doesn't even exist, which is a very wrong take. An appropriate take is abled cis white men don't experience oppression beyond the narrow category of sexuality but use those limited experiences to generalize to oppression in general, which is a completely fair discussion.

I'm also really bothered about the whole "too straight presenting" comment, but it's way too much to for me to unpack right now. Yes, flamboyant men aren't taken as seriously as men who outwardly appear to be "straight"; but this is a much broader conversation about gender presentation and how many people implicitly give more credence to cis-masculine presentation which makes it difficult for anyone but cisdudes to be taken seriously. And like, that's important to talk about, but also that doesn't mean he's not part of the LGBTQ community just because he doesn't experience as much oppression as others. It's just... a comment with a lot to unpack.
 

mutantmagnet

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Oct 28, 2017
7,240
You can tell when Sanders stans are nervous about a particular candidate.
Your public insecurity isn't a good look on you.

Anyway I was never on board with disqualifying a candidate because they are a white male in the first place. That said the question is really gross considering the efforts still needed to protect queer folk as a minority group.
 
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Dr. Benton Quest

Dr. Benton Quest

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That ratio is encouraging.


It's nice to see people giving thoughtful breakdowns of her arguments and speaking their own experiences in her mentions.

Gives me some hope, lol.
 

Disclaimer

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Oct 25, 2017
5,492
To counterbalance the utter sewage that is the article in the OP, here is something much more critical and well articulated - https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete

You probably shouldnt vote for this guy. But not because he hasnt got enough checkmarks on the "minority" list.
See, that's actually a thoroughly critical piece and illuminates many of his issues, chiefly his disturbing priorities and penchant for navel-gazing.
 

Pyccko

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Oct 25, 2017
770
so this lady isn't exactly very smart

but seriously, democrats, please stop nitpicking every single candidate to death. we really need to like actually band together this time. like for real.
 

mutantmagnet

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Oct 28, 2017
7,240
To counterbalance the utter sewage that is the article in the OP, here is something much more critical and well articulated - https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete

You probably shouldnt vote for this guy. But not because he hasnt got enough checkmarks on the "minority" list.
Holy shit. I got to the part he called out other Havard students advocating for a living wage for janitors at HAVARD, social justice warriors and now he went from being a mixed bag that I'll pay attention to to completely unacceptable in my eyes.


The lack of moral integrity to say that in that context speaks so much as how much more insidious he is than your typical politician. I could see myself voting for Bush Jr. over this guy. Bush Jr's moral baseline is fundamentally higher than being annoyed with classmates wanting to help an exploited labor force (that may not even be doing menial jobs, by virtue of working at absolutely the richest and one of the most dynamic teaching and research institutions in the country).

I'll keep on reading but can this article get any worse than that?
 

Sirpopopop

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Oct 23, 2017
388
Holy shit. I got to the part he called out other Havard students advocating for a living wage for janitors at HAVARD, social justice warriors and now he went from being a mixed bag that I'll pay attention to to completely unacceptable in my eyes.


The lack of moral integrity to say that in that context speaks so much as how much more insidious he is than your typical politician. I could see myself voting for Bush Jr. over this guy. Bush Jr's moral baseline is fundamentally higher than being annoyed with classmates wanting to help an exploited labor force (that may not even be doing menial jobs, by virtue of working at absolutely the richest and one of the most dynamic teaching and research institutions in the country).

I'll keep on reading but can this article get any worse than that?
Suggesting that passage is him calling out other students negatively is a stretch. It did not strike me as him using it pejoratively here. Rather, it’s a reflection on his own view that he was surprised that the techies had a more near-term influence on the world than the protestors.
 

Psychoward

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Nov 7, 2017
15,244
Holy shit. I got to the part he called out other Havard students advocating for a living wage for janitors at HAVARD, social justice warriors and now he went from being a mixed bag that I'll pay attention to to completely unacceptable in my eyes.


The lack of moral integrity to say that in that context speaks so much as how much more insidious he is than your typical politician. I could see myself voting for Bush Jr. over this guy. Bush Jr's moral baseline is fundamentally higher than being annoyed with classmates wanting to help an exploited labor force (that may not even be doing menial jobs, by virtue of working at absolutely the richest and one of the most dynamic teaching and research institutions in the country).

I'll keep on reading but can this article get any worse than that?
That was really really really strange. Look at those losers fighting for a living wage for others, I'm on my way to get pizza and talk with well known political figures instead... some of which would probably support the "social justice warriors". He unironically used SJWs to demean people fighting for a living wage for janitors.

Or this


9/11 happens while Buttigieg is an undergraduate and the rest of the book’s Harvard portion is spent musing on war and peace. One of the few things that does disturb him about the school is that its students are no longer expected to serve in the military. (In an extreme conservative tone, he suggests there was no excuse for a student like him not to voluntarily join the armed forces.) He says that he would spend time looking at the names of Harvard students who died in the Civil War, and that “I sometimes paused to recite a few of them, under my breath, between eating breakfast and going to class.”

The author himself seems kooky but Pete's book and the revelations it shows about some of his views is pretty damning.
 

Apharmd

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Oct 25, 2017
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Psychoward

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It does actually get worse as he continually downplays America's toxic role in foreign affairs and stans for his shitty firm.
 
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Dr. Benton Quest

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Holy shit. I got to the part he called out other Havard students advocating for a living wage for janitors at HAVARD, social justice warriors and now he went from being a mixed bag that I'll pay attention to to completely unacceptable in my eyes.


The lack of moral integrity to say that in that context speaks so much as how much more insidious he is than your typical politician. I could see myself voting for Bush Jr. over this guy. Bush Jr's moral baseline is fundamentally higher than being annoyed with classmates wanting to help an exploited labor force (that may not even be doing menial jobs, by virtue of working at absolutely the richest and one of the most dynamic teaching and research institutions in the country).

I'll keep on reading but can this article get any worse than that?
You've got to be careful here.

This is a political hit piece that makes paragraphs off of sentence snippets, then applies the words of others to Pete.

It's not even very well written, and is a monument to the author's bias.

For instance, this passage:

A more significant one is the way he talks about war. Buttigieg’s thesis was in part about Vietnam, which he calls a “doomed errand into the jungle.” The liberal vocabulary on wars like Vietnam and Iraq should trouble us. It says things like “doomed” and “mistaken,” (“a lethal blunder” that “collapsed into chaos,” to quote Buttigieg) its judgments pragmatic rather than moral. In doing so, it fails to reckon with the full scale of the atrocities brought about by U.S. government policy.

It also treats America as an innocent blundering giant with “the best of intentions.” Buttigieg quotes Graham Greene: “Innocence is like a dumb leper that has lost his bell, wandering the world, meaning no harm.” This is the Ken Burns line: We mean so well but we make terrible mistakes. It excludes the possibility that American leaders know full well what they are doing but simply do not care about the lives of non-Americans. And, in fact, it implicitly accepts the devaluation of non-American lives. Discussing the dissolution of Iraq into “chaos” (note: a word that obscures culpability), Buttigieg writes of “a reality on the ground that could no longer be denied amid rising American body count.” The Iraqi body count (over 500,000) is unmentioned, just as he leaves out the Vietnamese body count (in the millions). The phrase “reality on the ground” is used without any discussion of what that reality was for those who actually lived on the ground.
He makes some pretty serious claims about Pete's view on foreign policy and imperialism, yet the evidence he uses is a fucking sentence fragment. A SENTENCE FRAGMENT.

The rest of the word salad there is from other people that the author ties to Pete with nothing.
 

Izzard

Member
Sep 21, 2018
802
I don't think that gay white men share equal struggles as gay black men or black people in general.

It's strange seeing that idea of equal or more severe struggle being passed around.
There are countries out there where gay white men will face death, and where they can’t marry for being who they are.
Those 2 basic human rights are enough, but if you did some research you’d find more.

Let’s not start with the “my struggle is worse than yours” crap.
 

M52B28

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Oct 26, 2017
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There are countries out there where gay white men will face death, and where they can’t marry for being who they are.
Those 2 basic human rights are enough, but if you did some research you’d find more.

Let’s not start with the “my struggle is worse than yours” crap.
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know.

I'm not trying to start anything, just commenting on something I've realized on this forum.
 

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
935
Why am I not surprised she is a Sanders supporter. They were insufferable in 2016 too. Instead of boosting their loser candidate they make toxic comments about others.

You can dislike any candidate you want but don't insult them for being gay or being women. Sanders supporters need to STFU.
You're conflating two different writers. Christina Cauterucci is the writer of the Slate article. She does not seem to be a Sanders supporter based on her media activities.

Your quote is about Nathan Robinson who wrote the Current Affairs article on Pete. He also wrote a scathing analysis of Kavanaugh back during the debacle that went into the nitty gritty of it all. He supports Bernie Sanders.

I think your dislike of Sanders has allowed you to more easily pounce on any perceived Bernie supporter. This kind of sniping contributes to the toxic atmosphere found here.
 

Morrigan

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Oct 24, 2017
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