Sakurai made a point that the character is unusual exactly because of their extendable arms.
So I assume item-picking is one of those reasons.
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Smash Ultimate DLC character #6 is from ARMS and is coming in June
- Thread starter TheGamingNewsGuy
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Sakurai made a point that the character is unusual exactly because of their extendable arms.
So I assume item-picking is one of those reasons.
I was hoping for an ARMS character but gave up hope long ago, this was great news to me. :)
I'm sure everyone's already placed their bets, but my money's on minmin if they're only doing one character - she won the in game party bash event series and also uses a kick attack, alongside her default arms being the ranged dragon one and a more close up one. Would love to see Lola Pop and Misango specifically if they're going the route of 8-in-1 though.
Also hoping Nintendo is planning on doing something with ARMS soon between this, the free play period, the graphic novel in the air, and the upcoming tourney.
I'm sure everyone's already placed their bets, but my money's on minmin if they're only doing one character - she won the in game party bash event series and also uses a kick attack, alongside her default arms being the ranged dragon one and a more close up one. Would love to see Lola Pop and Misango specifically if they're going the route of 8-in-1 though.
Also hoping Nintendo is planning on doing something with ARMS soon between this, the free play period, the graphic novel in the air, and the upcoming tourney.
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Unless the base charcter is from Arms 2 and they wanted to reveal the Arms 2 MC with the Arms Charcter Trailer
Yeah, just look at this thread.
They didn't have the trailer ready yet, but still wanted to reveal something about the pass. So why not do what they did here and say "Arms character" and then list all 15 and have people speculating on who it will be until June.
There's not really a lot of series they could've done that with anyway so it really works here
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Time to bring this back.
This was inevitable, but it's finally time to tackle one of Nintendo's recent hit characters (& one of my personal favorites), Twintelle from ARMS. This should probably be a bit easier since I'm pretty well-versed in ARMS as a game, but I also have a lot to justify in this choice. Either way, I'm gonna enjoy this......very very much. In case you aren't caught up on this series, here are the previous entries.
The Silver Screen Queen herself, Twintelle started her career in the spotlight as part of the same record label as Ribbon Girl. But according to Biff (the announcer for ARMS), she eventually decided to pursue a career in acting, so she & Ribbon Girl parted ways in terms of them working together. This soon led Twintelle to establishing Twintelle Productions, eventually resulting in a productive career as a world-famous actress in the world of ARMS (thus earning the aforementioned moniker). To address the obvious elephant in the room, Twintelle is the only known character who possesses the ARMS gene that had said gene materialize in the form of her hair rather than her actual arms. This, along with Twintelle's ability to slow down time around her opponents, ends up helping Twintelle stand out compared to her fellow combatants on top of side-stepping the potential issues of having her extendable arms actually being her arms (Fun Fact: That mask is a free mask issued by ARMS Labs & is meant for being able to take control of said extendable limbs, as the arms would be more-or-less useless without the mask being on). This fact has caught the interest of ARMS Labs, who have tried & failed to have Twintelle come in for examination.
This is probably the question on most of your minds, so allow me to elaborate. Twintelle quickly became one of the most popular characters in ARMS right from her reveal (this is especially true in the West, as Japan ended up favoring Min Min), to the point where the devs put her into the Global Testpunch at the last minute due to fan demand. Anyway, I can already foresee two main objections towards this choice, so I'll approach responding to them in a different fashion than usual.
Because Twintelle actually has normal arms on top of her extendable hair arms, this allows for a bit more flexibility when it comes to crafting Twintelle's moveset. For one, you can more easily animate Twintelle holding items compared to Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, or Min Min, since Twintelle's real hands don't have ARMS (the gloves) covering them. As for her actual moves, her normals would involve a mixture of attacks involving her normal arms & her hair arms in a graceful manner befitting a movie star of Twintelle's caliber. Her Smash attacks would have Twintelle really wind up a punch with her hair arms, truly showing her body-building prowess. And since said hair arms are the ones that are extendable, her animations could be pretty creative, especially for her up smash & her aerials. For example Twintelle's Nair could have her hair arms spin around her like Palutena's staff, while her dash attack could have Twintelle spin her hair arms like a top similar to ROB's dash attack. Twintelle's Dair could even have her spiral down to the ground feet-first, with her hair arms following behind her as they twirl around her (this would spike, but also bounce off the opponent upon impact). But the main star of the show beyond her mechanics would be her range, which would make even the Belmonts break a sweat (though not by much, as Twintelle's range would still be within Belmont territory despite technically being longer). Anyway, onto her specials...
My choice for Twintelle's stage would be Sky Arena. I know what you may be wondering, "But Neoxon, this is Max Brass' stage". And you're right, as Twintelle's stage is actually Cinema Deux. However, this is probably one of the most visually striking stages in all of ARMS. Plus it's the final boss area, so everyone comes here at some point or another in ARMS's Grand Prix Mode. The stage would go for a tournament-legal approach in that it floats far above the looming city. Likewise, one major change I'd make to Sky Arena is that the center platform would float higher & can be passed through, with the gated metal floor making up the non-pass-through floors. Think of this stage as a version of Smashville with a larger upper pass-through platform. Of course, like King of Fighters Arena, you'll have cameos from every other ARMS character (who will for-sure show up if you're playing certain songs), including Biff. Twintelle also shows up in the background when she isn't in use. However, due to Spring Man having a chance of being present, you can't use his Assist Trophy on this stage.
As I've mentioned many times in the past, the lack of ARMS music is one of Smash Ultimate's most glaring blindspots in its otherwise-stellar music library. Twintelle's inclusion would give Sakurai & his team an opportunity to correct that error. And since ARMS is a Nintendo EPD franchise, there's no stopping Sakurai from getting everything he can from a licensing standpoint (plus Splatoon got 26 songs counting remixes, so what's listed below outside of potential remixes isn't far off). Anyway, here are the tracks.
ARMS currently has 5 spirits in the base game, including Twintelle. In her case, she has other renders & art to pull from, so her Fighter Spirit would use one of those. As for the others, we'd pull from the ARMS characters who have yet to be used as spirits in Smash Ultimate.
ARMS is one of a handful of successful new IPs the Switch brought us (followed by the likes of Astral Chain & Ring Fit Adventure). And of those franchises, ARMS is probably the most rich with unique characters with striking designs that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the other Nintendo legends. Likewise, Nintendo has made slow-but-steady strides to have more diversity amongst their characters in recent years. Twintelle as a character symbolizes both the new era of successful new Switch franchises as well as Nintendo's improvement with regards to representation. She may not be the main character of ARMS, but Twintelle is very much one of the main two fan-favorites of the game. While there may be other third party characters who would create more shockwaves, Twintelle being added would serve as an example of what Nintendo's moving towards going into the future. If the Inklings represent the creativity of modern Nintendo, Twintelle represents the growing diversity of modern Nintendo (though both still have elements of the other, as Splatoon is plenty diverse & ARMS is plenty unique, but you get the idea).
ORIGINALLY CREATED ON NOVEMBER 24TH, 2019
AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF TWINTELLE IN SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATE
AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF TWINTELLE IN SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATE
This was inevitable, but it's finally time to tackle one of Nintendo's recent hit characters (& one of my personal favorites), Twintelle from ARMS. This should probably be a bit easier since I'm pretty well-versed in ARMS as a game, but I also have a lot to justify in this choice. Either way, I'm gonna enjoy this......very very much. In case you aren't caught up on this series, here are the previous entries.
- Chapter 1: Chun-Li
- Chun-Li's section has undergone a few changes since its original debut, so please check it out if you aren't caught up on said changes.
- Chapter 2: Jill Valentine
- Chapter 3: Arle
- Bonus Chapter: Susie
- Post Made by MondoMega
WHO IS TWINTELLE?
The Silver Screen Queen herself, Twintelle started her career in the spotlight as part of the same record label as Ribbon Girl. But according to Biff (the announcer for ARMS), she eventually decided to pursue a career in acting, so she & Ribbon Girl parted ways in terms of them working together. This soon led Twintelle to establishing Twintelle Productions, eventually resulting in a productive career as a world-famous actress in the world of ARMS (thus earning the aforementioned moniker). To address the obvious elephant in the room, Twintelle is the only known character who possesses the ARMS gene that had said gene materialize in the form of her hair rather than her actual arms. This, along with Twintelle's ability to slow down time around her opponents, ends up helping Twintelle stand out compared to her fellow combatants on top of side-stepping the potential issues of having her extendable arms actually being her arms (Fun Fact: That mask is a free mask issued by ARMS Labs & is meant for being able to take control of said extendable limbs, as the arms would be more-or-less useless without the mask being on). This fact has caught the interest of ARMS Labs, who have tried & failed to have Twintelle come in for examination.
WHY TWINTELLE?
This is probably the question on most of your minds, so allow me to elaborate. Twintelle quickly became one of the most popular characters in ARMS right from her reveal (this is especially true in the West, as Japan ended up favoring Min Min), to the point where the devs put her into the Global Testpunch at the last minute due to fan demand. Anyway, I can already foresee two main objections towards this choice, so I'll approach responding to them in a different fashion than usual.
- "But Neoxon, Min Min won the Party Crash Bash. Clearly she's more popular than Twintelle."
- While you aren't wrong to assume this (Min Min is plenty popular, after all), it isn't as clear-cut as you may think. Party Crashes are much like Splatfests in Splatoon where popularity & skill play equal roles in determining the winner of any given match-up. To use Splatoon 2 as an example, Marina was very clearly the more popular Off the Hook member of the two. However, this fact worked to her detriment for many of the Splatfests, where Pearl won most of them. This was to the point where Nintendo eventually changed how Splatfests winners are determined which, while it did help Marina win a few Splatfests, still had Pearl win many of them. It's not just about being popular, it's also about having good players on your side. ARMS doesn't really provide hard numbers beyond who did the best during any given Party Crash, so it's hard to say who got the most people on their side during each Party Crash. But if the Marina situation was any indication, Twintelle's popularity likely hurt her viability in the long-run.
- "But Neoxon, Spring Man is the face of ARMS & Ribbon Girl is the leading lady. Shouldn't they be first in line?"
- Another valid argument, especially considering Sakurai's mentality of going for the poster child of any new franchise first. But I'd argue that this mentality is sometimes to a fault. Regarding Spring Man, I don't hate him by any stretch of the imagination (I've even done an entire thread on why Spring Man works as ARMS's poster boy). But while Spring Man does enjoy a fair bit of popularity, he's very clearly not the most popular character of his own game. Both Twintelle & Min Min have already come heads & shoulders ahead of Spring Man in this regard, to the point where taking the easy way out by adding Spring Man instead would feel like a missed opportunity. That plus there's the fact that Spring Man is already an Assist Trophy as well as a Mii Costume, which could arguably spell a better or worse scenario for Twintelle depending on how you see it (same for Ribbon Girl's Mii Costume). Either way, I could see this argument as being the bigger detriment towards the choice of Twintelle. But ultimately, while Spring Man would be the logical choice if we were to think like Sakurai, Twintelle would be the better choice for the fans. As for Ribbon Girl, Twintelle has already usurped usurped her as the leading lady of ARMS going by the way Nintendo treats both characters now compared to when ARMS initially came out, so Twintelle's already well on her way to the top spot (though Min Min is her main competition at this point, as mentioned earlier).
HOW WOULD TWINTELLE PLAY?
Because Twintelle actually has normal arms on top of her extendable hair arms, this allows for a bit more flexibility when it comes to crafting Twintelle's moveset. For one, you can more easily animate Twintelle holding items compared to Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, or Min Min, since Twintelle's real hands don't have ARMS (the gloves) covering them. As for her actual moves, her normals would involve a mixture of attacks involving her normal arms & her hair arms in a graceful manner befitting a movie star of Twintelle's caliber. Her Smash attacks would have Twintelle really wind up a punch with her hair arms, truly showing her body-building prowess. And since said hair arms are the ones that are extendable, her animations could be pretty creative, especially for her up smash & her aerials. For example Twintelle's Nair could have her hair arms spin around her like Palutena's staff, while her dash attack could have Twintelle spin her hair arms like a top similar to ROB's dash attack. Twintelle's Dair could even have her spiral down to the ground feet-first, with her hair arms following behind her as they twirl around her (this would spike, but also bounce off the opponent upon impact). But the main star of the show beyond her mechanics would be her range, which would make even the Belmonts break a sweat (though not by much, as Twintelle's range would still be within Belmont territory despite technically being longer). Anyway, onto her specials...
- SPECIALS
- Standard B: Chilla
- A charged-up punch not unlike Donkey Kong's Standard B special. Once you charge it half-way, your resulting punch will freeze your opponent, with the frozen time lasting longer with more knockback if you charge it further to its maximum. And like Donkey Kong, a max charge can be stored. However, you can't store a Chilla charge if it's not at max charge. And while you can pivot the punch up or down, you have less flexibility the more you charge the attack. Likewise, this can be augmented with the Dodge Charge, which I'll get into later.
- Side B: Parasol
- Think of this move as a means of helping your approach. The Parasol is a slow-moving punch that can has a certain amount of durability. What sets this punch apart from the others is that, even though you can't pivot it up or down like the low-powered Chilla punch, Twintelle can follow behind the Parasol to cover her approach (though don't expect to be able to use any other special until the Parasol connects with the opponent or reaches its maximum range). Don't rely on this too much, as the Parasol can only take so much damage. If it sustains too much damage, you'll lose access to that hair arm for a few seconds, which slows Twintelle down slightly. You still have one fully-functioning hair arm, so you aren't completely gimped. But still, play it safe with this move. Like the Chilla, the Dodge Charge can augment this ability, as it will be explained later.
- Up B: Item Drone Lift
- The Item Drone is basically a robot that brings in items during battle. While the Item Drone has no items with it in Smash, it can give Twintelle a lift to save her from certain death. Think of it like Snake's Up B.
- Down B: Thunderbird
- This easily has the least range of Twintelle's punch-based specials. But it packs quite the punch, as a fully-charged Thunderbird punch can stun your opponent for a decent amount of time. Even if they shield it, the Thunderbird can dish out quite a bit of shield damage. Of course, like the Chilla & Parasol, this move is augmented with the Dodge Charge.
- Final Smash: Rush
- Like Spring Man's Assist Trophy, Twintelle can send out a flurry of long-range punches that can be pivoted up or down. This move also has the benefit of locking in anyone caught in the punches, even as you move the attack upward or downward. God help anyone caught in this barrage.
- Standard B: Chilla
- UNIQUE MECHANICS
- Dodge Charge
- This works basically how it does in ARMS. If you dodge left or right (on the ground or in the air, but the air is limited to forward & backwards air dodges) & continue to hold down the shield button after doing the dodge, you can charge up your next attack. This charge will give said next attack more damage & knockback, as well as move-specific buffs for the following specials...
- Chilla
- More damage
- More knockback
- Longer-lasting freeze effect when you hit the 50+% charge threshold
- Parasol
- More damage
- More durability
- Thunderbird
- More damage
- Longer-lasting stun effect
- Chilla
- However, like with regular dodging, using the Dodge Charge too much will decrease its effectiveness. This ability also has another effect since this is Twintelle we're talking about, which transitions into the next unique mechanic.
- This works basically how it does in ARMS. If you dodge left or right (on the ground or in the air, but the air is limited to forward & backwards air dodges) & continue to hold down the shield button after doing the dodge, you can charge up your next attack. This charge will give said next attack more damage & knockback, as well as move-specific buffs for the following specials...
THE WORLD!!!Witch TimeTime Slowdown- If you dash into your opponent & continue to hold down the shield button, you can slow down your opponent. This functions similarly to Witch Time in many ways. Like Witch Time, this can't be triggered with projectiles (you'll dodge it like normal). But at the same time, you just need to get close to your opponent to trigger the slowdown. With that said, this can be shielded against, which can lead to the slowdown attempt being punished. Likewise, its effectiveness diminishes with each successful use of the attack. So while this is a powerful tool in Twintelle's arsenal, it must be used wisely.
- Extending Grab
- Like in ARMS, Twintelle's grab reach is insane and can be slightly aimed up & down. But there's one major drawback to this ability, as any physical attack can break the incoming grab (similar to ARMS). The grab has a few frames of invincibility at the start, so this circumvents that drawback if you want to use this grab up-close like you would for any other character. But still, use the long reach of the grab sparingly, as it can be a handy tool if used correctly.
- Float
- Twintelle can slightly float after doing an air dodge. She becomes vulnerable after the float expires.
- Always Facing the Opponent
- Like Ryu, Ken, & Terry, Twintelle will always face the opponent in 1v1 battles.
- Dodge Charge
WHAT WOULD TWINTELLE'S STAGE BE?
My choice for Twintelle's stage would be Sky Arena. I know what you may be wondering, "But Neoxon, this is Max Brass' stage". And you're right, as Twintelle's stage is actually Cinema Deux. However, this is probably one of the most visually striking stages in all of ARMS. Plus it's the final boss area, so everyone comes here at some point or another in ARMS's Grand Prix Mode. The stage would go for a tournament-legal approach in that it floats far above the looming city. Likewise, one major change I'd make to Sky Arena is that the center platform would float higher & can be passed through, with the gated metal floor making up the non-pass-through floors. Think of this stage as a version of Smashville with a larger upper pass-through platform. Of course, like King of Fighters Arena, you'll have cameos from every other ARMS character (who will for-sure show up if you're playing certain songs), including Biff. Twintelle also shows up in the background when she isn't in use. However, due to Spring Man having a chance of being present, you can't use his Assist Trophy on this stage.
WHAT MUSIC WOULD TWINTELLE BRING WITH HER?
As I've mentioned many times in the past, the lack of ARMS music is one of Smash Ultimate's most glaring blindspots in its otherwise-stellar music library. Twintelle's inclusion would give Sakurai & his team an opportunity to correct that error. And since ARMS is a Nintendo EPD franchise, there's no stopping Sakurai from getting everything he can from a licensing standpoint (plus Splatoon got 26 songs counting remixes, so what's listed below outside of potential remixes isn't far off). Anyway, here are the tracks.
- Sky Arena (Max Brass' Stage)
- Cinema Deux (Twintelle's Stage)
- Grand Prix (Title Theme)
- Grand Prix (Ribbon Girl Version)
- Spring Stadium (Spring Man's Stage)
- Ribbon Ring (Ribbon Girl's Stage)
- Ninja College (Ninjara's Stage)
- Mausoleum (Master Mummy's Stage)
- Ramen Bowl (Min Min's Stage)
- Scrapyard (Mechanica's Stage)
- Buster Beach (Byte & Barq's Stage)
- Skate Park (Kid Cobra's Stage)
- DNA Lab (Helix's Stage)
- Via Dolce (Lola Pop's Stage)
- Temple Grounds (Misango's Stage)
- Sparring Ring (Springtron's Stage)
- [Name Redacted] (Dr. Coyle's Stage)
- VS Dr. Coyle Hedlok
- VS Headlok (Grand Prix)
- Party Crash Menu Theme
WHAT SPIRITS WOULD BE INCLUDED WITH TWINTELLE?
ARMS currently has 5 spirits in the base game, including Twintelle. In her case, she has other renders & art to pull from, so her Fighter Spirit would use one of those. As for the others, we'd pull from the ARMS characters who have yet to be used as spirits in Smash Ultimate.
- Twintelle
- Fighter Spirit
- Dr. Coyle
- Lola Pop
- Misango
- Mechanica
- Master Mummy
- Kid Cobra
- Max Brass
- Helix
- Byte & Barq
- Springtron
- Biff
- Hedlok
LONG STORY SHORT
ARMS is one of a handful of successful new IPs the Switch brought us (followed by the likes of Astral Chain & Ring Fit Adventure). And of those franchises, ARMS is probably the most rich with unique characters with striking designs that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the other Nintendo legends. Likewise, Nintendo has made slow-but-steady strides to have more diversity amongst their characters in recent years. Twintelle as a character symbolizes both the new era of successful new Switch franchises as well as Nintendo's improvement with regards to representation. She may not be the main character of ARMS, but Twintelle is very much one of the main two fan-favorites of the game. While there may be other third party characters who would create more shockwaves, Twintelle being added would serve as an example of what Nintendo's moving towards going into the future. If the Inklings represent the creativity of modern Nintendo, Twintelle represents the growing diversity of modern Nintendo (though both still have elements of the other, as Splatoon is plenty diverse & ARMS is plenty unique, but you get the idea).
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surprised this didn't happen sooner. seemed like an obvious choice when dev on Ultimate was progressing.
So do people think we won't know the character till June? I'd think we'd see a trailer before then.
Maybe so, but if they weren't doing this I think they could tell us who the character is at least. It probably won't be every character from the game, but I bet they are doing more than one. Which one(s) we get will be determined by how the development and testing goes.
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Very possible. They could easily have the charcter trailer at the Summer Direct and Shadow Drop on the same day. Buuuut they could also have a Charcter Trailer in May since i assume Summer Direct will be at the same time as E3 would have been which is the 7th,9th
So this is at least breaking the "base game spirit" rule, right? There's no way one of the non-Spirit characters are going to be chosen, at least not as the main spot
If it's Twintelle I can foresee endless complaining online about nerfs to her figure. I doubt it's her.
They showed the ARMS 1 roster so I doubt that, but they could be hiding some form of multi-character entry.
I do think ARMS 2 will be a thing though, there's no reason to rush out another Mario Kart game.
Its kinda odd they showed all the characters during the announcement. Maybe its all of them as skins for a fighter, one Humanoid (with most of the characters as skins) and an Echo a big character silhouette for Mechanica and Master Mummy. Then mash majority of their moves together or ARMS change as a game mechanic.
Either way, I doubt they'd leave her out due to people complaining about her figure being "nerfed". Plus she was in an E10+ game already.
Its kinda odd they showed all the characters during the announcement. Maybe its all of them as skins for a fighter, one Humanoid (with most of the characters as skins) and an Echo a big character silhouette for Mechanica and Master Mummy. Then mash majority of their moves together or ARMS change as a game mechanic.
This is what I've been hoping for for a long time
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It's probably Min Min, super easy conversion if it's not spring man
This would be the best route they are not against making a bunch of models for one character as skins as shown by bowser jr and heroIts kinda odd they showed all the characters during the announcement. Maybe its all of them as skins for a fighter, one Humanoid (with most of the characters as skins) and an Echo a big character silhouette for Mechanica and Master Mummy. Then mash majority of their moves together or ARMS change as a game mechanic.
Over the next few days, we'll find at least 3 seperate 4chan posts that each predicted ARMS as FP6.
Monkeys and typewriters
Monkeys and typewriters
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Yeah i wouldn't be suprised if we got an influx of leakers know we know what FP7 is. Things are going to a lot more intresting now in terms of Smash Speculation
It also says "this fighter" rather than "these fighters" though.Its kinda odd they showed all the characters during the announcement. Maybe its all of them as skins for a fighter, one Humanoid (with most of the characters as skins) and an Echo a big character silhouette for Mechanica and Master Mummy. Then mash majority of their moves together or ARMS change as a game mechanic.
Hero also shows they are willing to and have the ability to have different voice actors for each skin.
I agree for many reasons:
-Considering they had completely different models for other characters (Bowser Jr, Hero), I can see them going with a selection.
-The ARMs style of fighting is unique enough in Smash Bros, that the individual ARMs fighter's nuance wouldn't really matter. Most, in not all, of the ARMs roster could share the moveset in Smash
-If they were going with one single ARMs character, they'd know who it was by now, and they just would have told us. If they knew it was, say, Min Min, they would have just announced Min Min.
Although Spring Man + Ribbon Girl swap would be the most vanilla and lame thing to do, so it's probably that.
So, I searched Twintelle on Twitter and yeah, it seems like she's still mainly known for her ass...
Im happy about this becuase it could mean we finally could see Rex with different balde characters in Smash now.
If this is choke full of cool Nintendo characters im buying this pack. Im think im tired of third party surprises now.
Also ARMS really deserved a spot.
If this is choke full of cool Nintendo characters im buying this pack. Im think im tired of third party surprises now.
Also ARMS really deserved a spot.
But single player in an fighting games are not main focus and are usually ok. Arms isn't splatoon it's a fighting game and fight games don't have a lot of interesting modes to begin with
I don't think it's Spring man because they definitely are not gonna alter an assist trophy for optional DLC and they sure as hell won't remove it for optional DLC. Besides who the fuck wants boring ass Springman?
My point is, why show what they did at all? If there was a delay, why give us a strangely vague teaser when, otherwise, they could have just held off entirely on the news until May or June and done it without a placeholder?
I swear even before COVID they said it would take awhile.
I'm not sure if I agree with that. They gotta maintain some kind of surprise.
Lola Pop, PLEASE. Twintelle deserves the spot tho. Give us both. I'm sure they can get creative and make echoes work.