1. I can't tell if this is a joke or if you honestly think those characters are more deserving. Also calling iconic characters from an iconic series "washed up...has-beens" is just embarrassing. You couldn't have constructed a more laughably transparent and biased argument. Bison is the only one who might be at their level and I doubt many people even know he's suppose to be a POC (from Thailand?)
     
  2. Pirarucu

    Pirarucu
    Member

    I can understand adding one, but adding TWO Castlevania characters over a black or brown character, of which there plenty that are popular - Shantae outstrips Simon and Richter by a mile in terms of recognizability - is just rubbing salt into the wound. Yes, there was already Street Fighter representation: then why add Ken? I'd like to think this was simply an innocent mistake, but try as I might, I can't consciously be so naive.
     
  3. Winterreise

    Winterreise
    Member

    Echo fighters require an absolute franction of the development time and funds to make. I would agree with you if they were two separate characters, but Ken and Richter are echoes of Ryu and Simon and didn't require significant development efforts.

    Shantae is not more recognizable or popular than Simon or Richter, that's just patently false.

    The only naivete here is assuming that Nintendo "passed up" on black or brown characters.
     
  4. Gotdatmoney

    Gotdatmoney
    Member

    Black and Brown was meant to refer to both skin tone and race and PoC is plainly meant to refer to people who do not originate from Europe. It's apparent what OP meant and it's obvious what you are trying to do with this bullshit.
     
  5. The Adder

    The Adder
    Member

    Feminine =/= Has a traditional female body
    Athletic =/= Does physical activity

    Twintelle is simultaneously a fashion model with her own fragrance AND a toned gym rat who we've actually been shown doing anaerobic exercise instead of just cardio-vascular or stretching workouts.

    So maybe think your posts through before you come at someone, yeah?
     
  6. KtSlime

    KtSlime
    Member

    Do you think Shantae is more recognizable in Japan? The planning board for characters was done in Japan, they are going to base their decisions on their common sense, that's just the reality of the situation.
     
  7. psychowave

    psychowave
    Member

    calm down. i'm not "coming at" anyone. i'm a woman who is very tired of this "athletic women never get to be feminine!!" narrative. they almost always do. there's barely any gender nonconforming women in media, especially in video games.

    but thanks for mansplaining femininity to me.
     
  8. Pacouranga

    Pacouranga
    Banned Member

    Race and skin tone are two wildly different things and OP being ambiguous about which they mean while categorically denying the existence of any Non-White and darker-than-light-pink characters is disingenuous and impossible to argue for. Because either they meant race, in which case Ryu is Japanese and not White, so they are wrong, or they meant skin tone in which case Little Mac is brownish, so they are wrong.
     
  9. Gotdatmoney

    Gotdatmoney
    Member

    Which is why he was referring to "both" like I said.

    He said black or brown. He didn't say Japanese.

    The point of skin tone and race is so someone doesn't do exact stupid shit you're doing where they take an obviously European based character with a slightly darker complexion and go "DIVERSITY DIVERSITY". Again, you're plainly transparent. You're not fooling anyone.
     
  10. Pacouranga

    Pacouranga
    Banned Member

    • User Banned (Permanent): Troll account
    So is Ganondorf White or just light-skinned?
     
  11. The Adder

    The Adder
    Member

    We're on the internet you're just an avatar and a name and I doubt you click everyone's profile name before responding to them. Put it in your post and I'll give your point of view on the subject more weight than I otherwise would.
     
  12. psychowave

    psychowave
    Member

    lmao, of course you're doubling down instead of apologizing. don't assume everyone on the internet is male.
     
  13. DragonSix

    DragonSix
    Member

    Forget it, not worth it. If you try to be moderate people will label you Nazi or SJW depending of what you say.
     
  14. The Adder

    The Adder
    Member

    That's not a double down. That's literally "i would have done something differently had I have known." It's an admission of error absent an actual apology.

    As for your second point? You're not wrong,
     
  15. psychowave

    psychowave
    Member

    no, you were justifying yourself. you even told me to announce that i'm a woman, because it's apparently my job to do that instead of you spending 0.5 seconds to click on my profile and check.

    but whatever, have a nice day
     
  16. Slayven

    Slayven
    You probably post about me on another board. Moderator

    Actually Storm is a rework of couple of characters that was pitched to DC
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  17. The Adder

    The Adder
    Member

    You too.
     
  18. I will never not campaign for Doc Louis, Punch-Out has more games than Kid Icarus after all.
     
  19. Shantae? Not many knows this character. Its absolutely niche and not even comparable with Castlevania characters, a serie with dozens of games and a TV show.
     
  20. OsakaDon

    OsakaDon
    Member

    Is there a list that breaks down how many human characters and how man non-human characters there are?
    Then we can look at the human characters and see from that list. From the characters I know, Ganondorf is the only brown skinned character. Yes he is not technically human, he is Hylian, but he is closest to perhaps middle Easter. Are there any Gerudo in Smash Bros? They are also brown skinned so that might count.
    I dont know the human character number count and of that the percentage of dark skinned characters, but they are clearly much in the minority.
    Mario, Luigi, Wario, Waluigi are all Italian.
    What about Peach? What about Toad? Are their dark skinned toads?
    Actually I think it would be cool if there were Toad characters based off of different types of mushrooms.
     
  21. This aint it
     
  22. cmChimera

    cmChimera
    Member

    So do you just not understand that black/brown people exist or are you intentionally making the argument that Little Mac is a brown person?
     
  23. Spinluck

    Spinluck
    Member

    Italians are definitely white, what the fuck lmao.
     
  24. DrArchon

    DrArchon
    Member

    [Citation Needed]
     
  25. Urban Scholar

    Urban Scholar
    Member

    You got me there chief.

    So Smash has been around for nearly 20 years.

    Ganondorf was introduced in melee 2001 and has been the only visibly non fair skinned human for 17-18 years.

    And in 2018 we definitely need more visible PoCs.
     
  26. Smash needs more diverse demographics in playable characters -- skin tones, hair types, etc.. I dont see this as a debate on racial or ethnicity inclusion. To me Mario is not Italian, and Pit is not Greek. They are fantasy characters from fantasy worlds with white skin is all.
     
  27. These are all the characters
    [​IMG]

    It's a bit hard to break down, but of all the "human "characters" we have 42.
    Of those, 3 of them aren't real characters and are more just avatars (Wii Fit Trainer, Inkling, Villager) and and the latter have dark skinned and opposite gendered variants, so I'll just remove them, so we have 39.

    Of the remaining, Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, and IIRC Little Mac are Italian.
    Link, Zelda and Peach are presumably European given the Peter Pan influences on the original Zelda (could be Japanese though)
    Pokemon Trainer is probably Japanese considering he's based on Red who's from Kanto which was literally modeled after a region in Japan
    Ryu is Japanese, Ken is American
    Ganondorf seems based on some desert culture so based on the Middle Eastern or Northern African?
    Given Dracula's Eastern European roots, I think we can assume Simon and Richter are also from that region
    Palutena, Pitt and Dark Pitt I guess are Greek?

    As for the others, who knows
     
  28. TwinBahamut

    TwinBahamut
    Member

    Well, there was a period of time where they were not considered to be. "White" is, like any other descriptor of race, an unreliable term completely divorced from biology or science. So what is considered to be White or Black or anything else has changed a lot over time. This is why these words simply are not useful when trying to talk very precisely about anything, especially fictional characters from nonexistent worlds invented by a game designer.

    I mean, how do you even describe the "race" of someone like Lyn from Fire Emblem? She is the child of a man from European-style nobility, at least in social customs, and her mother was from a tribe based heavily on Mongolian steppe nomads, but the art style of the game tends to obscure any differences there may be between those ethnic groups. Even her, a character used to tell a story about overcoming racism, is really hard to label using real world ethnicities.

    It's why it is more practical to talk about things like skin tone and cultural trappings.
     
  29. Smellycat

    Smellycat
    Member

    I am all for inclusivity, but some people just for look them in the wrong places. I am a minority and not once have I ever wondered about diversity in Super Smash Brothers. Do people actually relate to characters from that franchise? It is mostly made up of anthropomorphic characters, and other imaginary characters, including humans. Not once have I ever wondered why Nintendo wasn't including people from my race/skin tone.

    I honestly read the thread title and went "what?"

    Now, if you are talking about a franchise like GTA or Uncharted, TLOU, etc... and those games didn't have any black or minority characters in them then this would be a great discussion, but I just don't get the criticism here. Am I missing something?
     
  30. WestEgg

    WestEgg
    Member

    By what metric? Simon is the face of Castlevania and his debut game has sold more than the entire Shantae franchise. He's a pillar of gaming history. I can understand calling out, say, Daisy or a Fire Emblem character, but criticizing Castlevania for being included makes no sense at all to me.
     
  31. Kenai

    Kenai
    Member

    I'd like to see it more too, but the old guard franchises of the 80s and 90s don't have much to work with, and newer franchises are starting to improve with various skin tone options but rarely have them as the default MC (with Splatoon 2 being an exception to that rule).

    That being said, Elma, Octoling, Twintelle and Urbosa are all characters I see potential in making it into the game sooner or later and would add a refreshing bit of color to the roster. I do think Nintendo has a bit more onus on them than the rest of the industry to diversify their roster, but I don't necessarily mind that. They can do it.
     
  32. RM8

    RM8
    Member

    In the case of SSB, it's just a reflection of the lack of black/brown characters in gaming, especially in Japan.

    You know what would be really cool but will never happen? Prince of Persia! Even though he can look really white depending on the game, lol.
     
  33. Spinluck

    Spinluck
    Member

    I'm aware that things get a lot deeper when we approach them at the root, but semantics isn't the way to tackle this issue. When a dark haired Italian w/blue eyes is applying for a job in the states, they aren't crossing out White on that job application, they are circling it in. That's that to me, and a majority of them identify as white here so I ain't gonna be Googling their descendants or family trees. I'm going to take their word for it. I myself am Haitian-American, but I identify as a black man in America regardless of some of my own Tiano roots or the fact that my parents were born islanders.

    There is straight up not a single person that is black or even hispanic/latino playable in the game. Sure, it's cool to have a black Villager or Inkling skin option I guess... but that's not their default.

    Many of these characters that are ambiguous in their background are clearly made up of prominent Eurocentric traits or features, and this is fairly common in Japanese anime or media. Outside of that fact, Smash is extremely diverse, but it magnifies this issue of racial/ethnic diversity in gaming as a whole.
     
  34. Jacobbles

    Jacobbles
    Member

    Is this a troll post? I honestly can't tell any more.
     
  35. KtSlime

    KtSlime
    Member

    Why should the world have to follow the US's racial categorization system?
     
  36. tapedeck

    tapedeck
    Member

    Im not sure why but I never realized Twintelle was Black.
     
  37. 8byte

    8byte
    Member

    lol

    You can sugar coat it I guess, but at the end of the day he is “part Asian” in writing only. His character is literally inspired by and modeled after white movie stars.
     
  38. Yeah, as a villain.
     
  39. TwinBahamut

    TwinBahamut
    Member

    Well, no, semantics isn't the issue, and I wouldn't really say someone like Mario is a substitute for better and more diverse representation or anything like that. I wasn't trying to defend the post you were quoting or even really criticize your comment, just kinda used your reaction as a springboard for some of my own thoughts.

    I'm still of the camp that says it would be really cool for Elma to get in the game as DLC, at least as a start.
     
  40. Spinluck

    Spinluck
    Member

    Categorize it however you like. I only look at it the way I do because no matter how many sub-categories you break it down into, less white or kinda white is still white in this scenario. If you ask most people what race Mario is, they are going to tell you white, unless I am mistaken and even then they decided to design both Mario brothers to look like the whitest Italians possible lol. Peach and Daisy don't really help their case either, both are princesses of a fictional world but are still very clearly white women. I mean, I am not sure what to say or what we are even arguing here.
     
  41. Ryce

    Ryce
    Member

    I am dying here.
     
  42. OsakaDon

    OsakaDon
    Member

    Very nice breakdown. Seems logical.
    But yea, gaming in general has pretty few dark skinned lead characters.
     
  43. KtSlime

    KtSlime
    Member

    More diverse representation in skin color is important. America may blanket categorize Italians as white, which would mean they don't count as diversity, however if Japan considers the character Italian, that means they are foreigners, which means they are being diverse. It's not as diverse as it could/should be, but it all is a matter of perspective. Humans are really diverse in skin pigmentation, so there are people considered black in America, who have lighter skin that some people who are considered white, or asian. The only solution is to have lots of skin pigmentations in the game.
     
  44. Urban Scholar

    Urban Scholar
    Member

    Should the world still lean on white or fair skin being the qualities of a hero? Or to the point here a default in media (games, movies, etc?
     
  45. KtSlime

    KtSlime
    Member

    Of course not, I am arguing in favor of being inclusive and understanding. Saying some characters don't count as diversity because of x or y is the opposite of being inclusive.
     
  46. Spinluck

    Spinluck
    Member

    Japanese anime in most scenarios favor Eurocentric traits morso than anything else besides their own features or beauty standards. And a lot of the stuff they make is/was inspired by Western pop culture or Hollywood. Shit, Miyamoto was inspired by Popeye (a white sailor) when making Mario, a lot of this isn't accident. Smash will easily sell most of its copies here in the states.

    I absolutely know diversity doesn't start or end at skin pigmentation, but this just further pushes the point I am trying to make. Western games are clearly struggling on this front, but there is proof that supports the idea that diversity isn't just exclusively a problem here.
     
  47. Im not saying its good or bad really just that technically its what he is.


    Though its also a bit of those Japanese games that like to cram a little nugget in there sometimes.
    I remember something in Resident Evil saying Jill Valentine is part Japanese.
    (I don't remember where though, I don't think it was a novel)
     
  48. John Omaha

    John Omaha
    Member

    This is a problem with the lack of iconic black/brown leads or antagonists in gaming as a whole. The Smash roster is a celebration of the main characters from popular Nintendo and/or third-party series, and I'd say that the only character that definitely deserves a roster spot is already in the game (Ganondorf). Elma could be a good addition as well (though X is the least popular Xenoblade game so far), Twintelle and the Octoling Girl are too new.

    Representation is important to me as a biracial dude, but I have very little interest in shoehorning the likes of Doc Louis or Mike Fucking Tyson into Smash just to have more black people on the roster. What we need are more black/brown leads in Nintendo series, and I think we've seen a shift in that direction in the past few years with Elma, Marina, Twintelle, etc... Claude in FE: Three Houses is one of the main protagonists, and he definitely ain't white.
     
  49. BigBluePig

    BigBluePig
    Member

    The OP is not *technically* correct as Ganondorf is middle-eastern, or at least intended to be. There are also some dark-skinned Inkling skins and some skins here and there for other characters (though I believe those are meant to be tanned and not there to represent any race)

    Have we already gone over what characters Nintendo could use? At the end of the day, they don't have many black/middle-eastern/etc characters to use, or at least none I can think of off the top of my head.
    Maybe Nintendo will start adding more main characters that aren't white/Japanese in the future, but at least for this Smash there really isn't anyone except Ganondorf.
     
  50. Jacobbles

    Jacobbles
    Member

    The highlighted part is one of the most patently ridiculous posts I've read on here in quite a while.
    Not to mention the idea that Smash characters should be chosen based on their race is stupid as hell. The idea that they would pick Twintelle or Shantae over an iconic videogame character like Simon, just because Simon is white? Come on now.
    Also Ken was obviously chosen because a) he's probably the second most iconic SF character after Ryu (though this is debateable, Chun-Li is probably tied for this) and b) he's an Echo, and therefore his development effort is significantly reduced.