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Smash Ultimate has 74 Characters, yet lacks Black/Brown characters (READ OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 4976
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Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire got several Pokeball Pokémon and remixes. While they didn't get a character, they still got decent acknowledgement. Xenoblade X so far as we know only has a skell spirit. And you can say Xenoblade X was only moderately successful on the Wii U and so it wouldn't get an AT but there's a Fatal Frame V AT.
Also Smash picks are not always based on trends. Elma and Xenoblade X are really not that old either. Most Xenoblade fans know who she is too. I think a possibility is that she was considered for the main roster but there were too many other things they needed to do and so she was decided as DLC before Sakurai played Xenoblade 2 and fell in love with the game.
Sure, but in Brawl we also got a Helirin AT despite someone like Midna being more popular, and Midna wasn't an AT until Smash 4. Assist Trophies aren't beholden to popularity the same way characters are.
Ruby and Sapphire also sold 16 million copies compared to Xeno X's sub 1 million, RSE (not to mention Emerald's 5+ million extra sales) was absolutely underrepped compared to how well it did even if it did get Pokeball Pokemon, Rayquaza as a boss, etc. If something that sold 16 million isn't guaranteed a stage, then Xeno X definitely isn't guaranteed much. Plus ORAS could not have been more perfectly timed for Smash 4 DLC, and it still didn't get that much extra representation.
Elma isn't that old, but Rex/Pyra/Mythra are all younger, more relevant, and more popular. There's no reason to pick Elma when characters in her own series are right there and in much higher demand. Maybe she was considered, but a ton of other characters considered too. If she didn't make it in the base game there's no way they thought she was important enough to be a shoe-in for DLC. That's near delusional.
I think the larger issue here would be one of Nintendo not really having a lot of black characters in their lineup to add to smash than it is about smash not having any black characters. Smash has to work with what's already there and with whatever 3rd parties allow them to license in.
I was trying to think of any games that had black characters even as extras and Mike Tyson and Doc were the only two that came to mind. One of the two they obviously aren't going to put in, and the other one would be better suited as a side character/assist character (which would be awesome, by the way - have Doc come out and pep up the characters for a strength boost or something). There's Twintelle. There are a few fighters from Punch Out that Mac fights but a lot of the characters in those games are plays on racial stereotypes themselves so that could draw its own heat.
Really drawing a blank as for other black people that have been represented in Nintendo franchises - there are a few in Earthbound but only as NPCs with no bearing on the story. I haven't played enough Fire Emblem to be familiar with all the characters there. None in the Mario universe. None of the old Pilotwings trainers. F-Zero X had a ton of characters, but I don't remember any of them outside of the original 4 (and none of them were black).
It's easy to defend Nintendo's ignorance on this issue in the 80's and 90's when they were producing product mainly for their own country where the racial mix is a lot more homogeneous, but gaming has been a Western developer-dominated landscape for at least the last 12 years since the 360/PS3 era, so more diversity should be something more globally recognized. I don't think Nintendo can do much about existing franchises, but certainly something they can address with new IPs moving forward.
I wouldn't hold this against Smash, though.
I was trying to think of any games that had black characters even as extras and Mike Tyson and Doc were the only two that came to mind. One of the two they obviously aren't going to put in, and the other one would be better suited as a side character/assist character (which would be awesome, by the way - have Doc come out and pep up the characters for a strength boost or something). There's Twintelle. There are a few fighters from Punch Out that Mac fights but a lot of the characters in those games are plays on racial stereotypes themselves so that could draw its own heat.
Really drawing a blank as for other black people that have been represented in Nintendo franchises - there are a few in Earthbound but only as NPCs with no bearing on the story. I haven't played enough Fire Emblem to be familiar with all the characters there. None in the Mario universe. None of the old Pilotwings trainers. F-Zero X had a ton of characters, but I don't remember any of them outside of the original 4 (and none of them were black).
It's easy to defend Nintendo's ignorance on this issue in the 80's and 90's when they were producing product mainly for their own country where the racial mix is a lot more homogeneous, but gaming has been a Western developer-dominated landscape for at least the last 12 years since the 360/PS3 era, so more diversity should be something more globally recognized. I don't think Nintendo can do much about existing franchises, but certainly something they can address with new IPs moving forward.
I wouldn't hold this against Smash, though.
I guess I just assumed those where the Americanized names.
Design-wise they don't really look anymore european than characters like Takumi and Sakura.
New challenger approaching
It's a shame Rodin is a assist trophy :/
Honestly if piranha plant can get in, more side characters should ...but that character was more of a joke <.< So...I dunno unless nintendo creates a new ip starring a person of color as the main character it's not gonna feel right imo also what 3rd party mascot is there that's black? Like you can't just add the dude from Watch_dogs 2 there has to be more impacting franchises
Only character that can seem viable is twintelle and Elma but both of these are not the "main character" of their series and Elma isnt even playable <.>
So very true. He would make an intriguing second Bayo character. His final smash could very well be his true form with some kind of omni directional stage wide attack.
Yes because painfully obviously doesn't remedy the Japanese culture in these anime/manga
This isn't an accurate comparison, you're comparing characters and not games. Midna may not have been a character but Twilight Princess got a stage and all of the main Zelda characters got redesigns from that game, plus all the music that came along with it.
That's because there was a wealth of Pokemon content already in the game. Gen 4 got Spear Pillar but there was also the generic Pokemon Stadium 2 which works for all gens of Pokemon, including 3. ORAS might have been timed well for Smash 4 DLC but it's a remake of an old game and they may have not wanted to add more Pokemon reps at that time. I don't think Ruby and Sapphire is really a good comparison here.
Xenoblade was primed for new content post Smash 4. Xenoblade X isn't just this lone game that just came out and faded into obscurity. Shulk was a newcomer in Smash 4 and after that the series got a 3DS port and a new entry which was advertised and pushed by Nintendo as one of the biggest Wii U games. Again, we're talking about a game that added an AT from Fatal Frame V. It's really weird for Elma or any Xenoblade X stuff to not get an AT especially since they would work very well as one.
I don't really appreciate you implying I'm delusional. Like I said, it really depends on when they decided who would be DLC. It's possible that they did it before 2 was done since we see even Spring Man made an AT instead of being saved for DLC. It's definitely possible based on that logic that they would consider Elma for DLC. I'm not saying that Elma is a guarantee but there definitely is a decent chance for her and the lack of Xenoblade X content and the questions around Xenoblade 2 mii outfits and music means it's definitely a possibility. Maybe she won't be DLC at all but I don't think it's delusional to think she could be. Either way, the whole relevancy and popularity arguments go out the window when we have Piranha Plant. It's not a Elma versus Rex debate because the idea is that it was too late for Rex.
Fire Emblem Fates have a country clearly based on Japan and the main character is named Corrin.
I mean... if you know the story of Fire Emblem Fates, you'll know why that is. You just need to look at the difference of the names between the Birthright and Conquest characters.
I think it comes down to anime stylization. We know anime usually tends to make the eyes very large and prominent while diminishing the nose and mouth while also not shying away from all sorts of bright colors for hair. When you consider that, a lot of ethnic traits wouldn't necessarily show. But looking at the character designs, what they wear, where they live, their names, there's definitely a difference.
Sakura clothing is very Japanese in style. It takes cues from shrine maidens. Ike by comparison has a very European looking outfit. The settings portray this difference too. Here's a castle in Ike's world and one from Sakura's country.
To be fair, Corrin is only the localized name. His name in Japan is Kamui. At the same time though Corrin's origins aren't purely Hoshidan, so his name could easily be because of that. So like, we can't really use Corrin as an example since his name will make sense no matter which one you use.
Shulk representing Xenoblade is why there's little reason for Elma. Xenoblade already has Shulk, who they've already said was a character they wouldn't usually include. Past that, Xenoblade was a very niche series until Xenoblade 2, which we really can't say is out of the realm of possibility for DLC.
The amount of circumstances that would require Xeno X being more relevant than Xeno 2 is crazy and all precedent we have implies that the time for X is done.
Your reasoning is wonky, but seems like you're not gonna change your mind.
Those names listed are NOT from that country and Corrin has a reason to not have a japanese sounding name.
Using the logic of "Japanese made them, so they're Japanese" means a show like Avatar is actually not completely BEREFT of white people as it's often praised for... but almost entirely white, because the creators are white. Which is completely ridiculous. :U
It's true that a lot of Japanese creators don't talk about ethnicity in their work, but that's because a lot of Japanese people have a different idea of ethnicity from the West. There's Japanese people - nihonjin; then there's Chinese/Korean people; and everyone else - gaijin. Obviously they can see a visual difference between what we consider a white person and what we consider a black person- but to them the difference is only visual. It's part of why many Japanese creators thought sambo and blackface iconography was okay for so long. They weren't mocking gaijin, just what some gaijin looked like.
Anyway, what this means is that to them, the idea of equating real world ethnicity to their created world's ethnicity doesn't particularly make sense, except in works specifically meant to bring up analogues. Ironically FMA, according to statements by Arakawa-sensei, is one of them.
When it comes up outside of these analogous works, it's usually prompted by discussion about potential Hollywood adaptation. IIRC Kishimoto once said it'd make sense for Naruto to be played by an American actor (i.e. white) whereas Sasuke would make sense to be Japanese. I'll see if I can dig it up, my Google Fu isn't working too well right now.
So, are Marth and Cloud Japanese or white? Well, we'll probably never get an answer from Nintendo or Square. So it's really up to interpretation. But to say "they are Japanese because the creator is Japanese" is pretty silly. I do consider Cloud Japanese, for the record, as he quite resembles an acquaintance of mine with similar facial features in AC.
It's true that a lot of Japanese creators don't talk about ethnicity in their work, but that's because a lot of Japanese people have a different idea of ethnicity from the West. There's Japanese people - nihonjin; then there's Chinese/Korean people; and everyone else - gaijin. Obviously they can see a visual difference between what we consider a white person and what we consider a black person- but to them the difference is only visual. It's part of why many Japanese creators thought sambo and blackface iconography was okay for so long. They weren't mocking gaijin, just what some gaijin looked like.
Anyway, what this means is that to them, the idea of equating real world ethnicity to their created world's ethnicity doesn't particularly make sense, except in works specifically meant to bring up analogues. Ironically FMA, according to statements by Arakawa-sensei, is one of them.
When it comes up outside of these analogous works, it's usually prompted by discussion about potential Hollywood adaptation. IIRC Kishimoto once said it'd make sense for Naruto to be played by an American actor (i.e. white) whereas Sasuke would make sense to be Japanese. I'll see if I can dig it up, my Google Fu isn't working too well right now.
So, are Marth and Cloud Japanese or white? Well, we'll probably never get an answer from Nintendo or Square. So it's really up to interpretation. But to say "they are Japanese because the creator is Japanese" is pretty silly. I do consider Cloud Japanese, for the record, as he quite resembles an acquaintance of mine with similar facial features in AC.
Nope even XCX is missing from spirits. Only XCX reresentation at all is a spirit of Elma's mech
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(Xenoblade_series)
I can't think of a bigger bummer as a XC2 fan than watching Rex relegated to mii costume status, while Elma takes a DLC character slot. lol
But that's my selfish side speaking. :P
But that's my selfish side speaking. :P
If Mother can get 2 reps I don't see why Xenoblade can't. Both franchises are even very similar being niche RPGs with classic status.
As I explained, Xenoblade was growing before Xenoblade 2. Shulk was a character they wouldn't normally include because it was a niche and single game. However, it made a big splash critically and spawned a 3DS port and a new title on Wii U which, I stress again, was pushed and marketed as one of the big games of the Wii U. Things obviously changed and Shulk being in the game already opens doors for more Xenoblade stuff than it denies it. Shulk actually gives Elma a better chance in Smash than if Shulk never was in Smash. If he wasn't, Elma wouldn't even be in the cards - we'd all be saying to add Shulk.
As for your second statement, I've already addressed this. If Elma is in, it would not be because she or Xenoblade X was chosen over Rex or 2. It would be because Rex and Xenoblade 2 weren't able to be considered at the time they decided and so it was simply Elma based on her own merits. The argument whether we can say the DLC was decided before 2 or not is, of course, up in the air. We don't know if Rex is a possibility or he is out because of timing. There are factors that lend to both perspectives. You can't say that Rex is guaranteed for DLC anymore than I can say Elma is. But while we don't know when the DLC was decided, I think it's fair and logical to think Elma may have a chance. It's not delusional or crazy.
To clarify, that's not Elma's skell. It's just a skell. A Formula type which is the most basic type and the one on the box art of Xenoblade X.
I would like to see both, honestly but if only one gets in, I would like it to be Elma. And not just because I like her more but because I feel like it's her "turn." I think Rex would still have opportunities in the future that Elma wouldn't necessarily have if Rex got in over her.
It doesn't matter what the real-world analogue that Fire Emblem characters inhabit is. There's no diversity in skin tones, hair types, and other distinguishing features in that game and in Smash or in many of Nintendo's games.
The world is based off Japan but they have blue and pink hair. I don't see how that helps anyone representation-wise?
The world is based off Japan but they have blue and pink hair. I don't see how that helps anyone representation-wise?
Have you actually played an FE game? You do realize not everyone has blue hair just because most of the characters from it in Smash do, right? Saying there's no diversity in skin tones or hair types is factually untrue
I don't get what were doing with the FE characters in the discussion...
Are we arguing if they are supposed to be European or Asian?
Because that still doesn't help that there's still a landslide of fair/white skin going on in Smash and FE games too.
Are we arguing if they are supposed to be European or Asian?
Because that still doesn't help that there's still a landslide of fair/white skin going on in Smash and FE games too.
I mean, of course Fire Emblem characters speak Japanese, they were made by a Japanese creator. But just becasue Disney's Mulan speaks English doesn't make her English.
Of course she's explicably stated to come from China, where as Fire Emblem characters are from a fantasy land, but that land is so, so, so European wouldn't it be a bit dodgy for the Japanese to self insert in to such a culture?
Imagine if it was the other way around and the West created a series so heavily based on Japanese culture and history yet all the characters were white despite their names. It'd be disgusting.
I just don't think you can take so much from a culture, yet not represent the people of that place.
Of course she's explicably stated to come from China, where as Fire Emblem characters are from a fantasy land, but that land is so, so, so European wouldn't it be a bit dodgy for the Japanese to self insert in to such a culture?
Imagine if it was the other way around and the West created a series so heavily based on Japanese culture and history yet all the characters were white despite their names. It'd be disgusting.
I just don't think you can take so much from a culture, yet not represent the people of that place.
Not really a whole lot left to discuss on the matter after 23 pages. There aren't many popular characters of color in the portfolio to choose from and the Smash roster reflects that.
You can argue that none of these characters are white. I'll even accept your assertion that Southern Europeans are not "white." None of them are black or brown, though, which is what the OP states in the title.
Man it just sucks that nintendo doesnt have more poc characters, hell even in something as big as mario there arent any major characters of color, unless you count daisy, and even she seems like she switches between white and tan on a game by game baisis.
There's a bit of diversity in some FE games.
I won't argue that there's a lot, or that they couldn't do a MUCH better job, but it's incorrect to say that there's no diversity.
Uh huh so that's the reason why there's no Black people? Despite the overtly heavy European themes. Yeah sure they're Japanese
But FE has characters like Flavia and other brown folks. Whom don't get shine in Smash. So again what are we doing here?
But FE has characters like Flavia and other brown folks. Whom don't get shine in Smash. So again what are we doing here?
Did you just equate italians and greeks to rachel dolezal?Since when are Italians and Greeks not white? Sheik is transracial!?
New challenger approaching
1928: "get outta here you filthy italian"
2018: "since when are italians not white, wat r u transracial"
anyways OP is not about nationality.
I'll take him in Smash over Edelgard from what we've seen.
PoC and uses a bow as a main weapon.
But don't be mistaken. Even if Im not into trends I still think (and I'm not alone obviously) that she makes a lot of sense.
There is a big chance a sequel of X will come and a port is not unlikely.
We'll never see Rex in any other game (except if cameo) while we might play with Elma again.
Seems like an arbitrary reason when FE got 2 fighters despite being Japanese only at the time. And then got a 3rd character despite not having a breakout success like Xenoblade2
No the Formula is the lightest mech.
Elma's is the Wels... on Mira.
I have always wanted Next Level Games to do a sequel to Punch-Out. A prequel where you play as Doc Louis would be a perfectly natural way for a Black Nintendo protagonist.
My bad its been a while. Even more hope she is dlc then.
I'd argue the Urban is.
: D
; ) I saw it thst way too lol.
The only thing making the Formula above the rest is that it got a figure release (and it's awesome to build and look at).
Marth and Roy were going to be cut for the international release, and Roy was a clone that didn't even get his own proper hitbox data. I'm not saying Xenoblade can't get another character, but I really don't see how Elma would get in over Rex/Pyra/Mythra at this point.
Mystery of the Emblem and Genealogy of the Holy War are also very classic Nintendo games in Japan, and IntSys was still making FE games, so the FE love made sense too.
You missed enlightenment which is perfectly fine : P.
Let's just say it makes sense depending on the situation.
And since there are many variables we don't know that it can go any way.
1) Is there hidden content of X in the game
2) What/How was the game planned initially
3) How are/were the DLC planned
And depending on the answers there othe sub-questions that can also decide for a way or another.
Just don't dismiss her when tons of people around here and smash boards feel like she could AND should be in.
Whether the odds are very slim or not, at least there's some possibility... for now.
If we find a music on the gameor more content it might decrease the likeliness. So in a month or so a lot can change.
You can say that about an extraordinary number of characters, many of which are much more popular than Elma. Even characters like Waluigi or Phoenix Wright, who are an order of magnitudes more popular, are dismissed.
I just think that is you need to put together a CSI investigation to justify a character's chances as DLC based on methodical analysis of development trends, when there is already evidence that it may not work like that (Corrin), then that character is probably not a big contender for DLC.
The core of what I'm saying is that I think she's unlikely because Xenoblade 2 is now on the table. If Xeno 2 wasn't there, it'd be anyone's game. But I think comparing her to other characters, when she isn't even the most popular in her series is wild. Her best bet was to ride the recency wave with the project plan, but that's not here anymore.
Same here. I really like XB2 and couldn't get into X so I'm naturally wanting Rex more.
Elma would be cool as a PoC rep but I personally just want Rex more.
Twintelle would still be really cool though. Maybe Octolings since their usual default in advertising is more dark skinned?
Seems rather early to make either of these statements. How do you know we're never going to see Rex again?
And didn't they say they have no plans to port X?
No, I did not. The person I was quoting said that Sheik was transracial. That's a term that Rachel Dolezal coined.
Let's turn it around. Why would we see Rex again ?
And for X, Takahashi just said it was a challenge because it costed money.
All the other sentences are vague enough and obvious to be said when a game hasn't been announced.
I'm thinking it just needs more time than early obvious Deluxe games.
I'm not shocked as I wasn't imagining a port announced this year.
The anime characters are not Caucasian looking. Anime characters look "white" to people with racist perspectives expecting ethnic signatures in cartoons because they view white as default.
They are light skinned though.
Fire emblem definitely needs more dark skinned characters. Same with Xenoblade. And the mario universe.
Hope Elma and Twintelle get in as dlc.
