Nintendo's slowly-but-surely improving in terms of PoC representation. The problem is that said improvements weren't really brought into fruition within Nintendo when Smash Ultimate's roster was being chosen.
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Smash Ultimate has 74 Characters, yet lacks Black/Brown characters (READ OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 4976
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I just want to say that when people talk about black/brown skinned characters in media, this kind of response is never helpful since no one actually is talking about non-human characters that happen to be dark in color. It's always this kind of discussion where someone posts Mr. Game & Watch and it's just not helpful at all. Meta Knight is not black or brown or anything. He's a blue puff ball.
Actually, there are more humans on the roster than non-humans. I don't know what you qualify as cartoon though and I don't know how that would prevent diversity just based on the pure concept of it.
I think the OP is clearly talking about established characters, not alts to avatar characters. Not to discredit the skintone options of these characters (it's great to have them) but it's clearly not the same especially since they aren't the default appearances of those characters.If we're already starting the topic over, how about we actually have an accurate premise because stating there are 0 black/brown characters is false since both the Inkling and Villager have skin-tone options.
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The 5th of those skin tones are the Splatoon 2 Inkling girl defaults, albeit with splatoon 1 hairstyles, so they've not completely ignored that at least.
In order the inkling girl costumes are Splatoon 1 inkling girl, Agent 3, Splatoon 2 inkling girl (who is darker skinned than the others in all Splatoon 2 promo material) and Splatoon 1 Inkling girl amiibo set.
Oddly I can't put my finger on what any of the male inkling sets are other than seemingly random gear from the games, beyond the first one which is the splatoon 1 default male.
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The third parties featured in Smash has more (not necessarily better) black representation than Nintendo, I do not think this an issue with japanese third parties
People are really eager to say "other JP third parties need to improve" when that's not the case like at all.
How many women are in Smash a Bros?
Let's see
Peach
Daisy
Samus
Dark Samus
Zelda
Isabelle
Bayonetta
Paletena
Lucina
Rosalina
Choose a woman
Inkling
Villager
Pokémon Trainer???
Corrin
Mii Fighter
It's still kinda lacking sadly but at least it's not like a couple choices.
I will not be shocked if Elma gets in since Xenoblade needs a new rep and she's the most well known character from XCX.
Twintelle can happen still luckily
Doc Louis would be a weird Fighter(since he's retired isn't he in terms of punch out lore?) but ehh Smash Bros has plenty of those(I mean we have a plant as a Fighter now so why not bring old man Doc outta retirement).
Rodin would be an excellent choice.
What would Impa be considered(not early Impa the Impa now)?
There has to be an F Zero character that is mixed right?
The thing is, Japan has a lot of real racial discrimination in its own population, but physically they have no visible characteristics that sets them apart. The main political push is to make it illegal to track down and identify ethnic groups via family records (for blocking employment, for example). So even though representation is important, Japan doesn't deal with it by making physical features normalised; they do the exact reverse, by erasing the differences which only really exists on paper.
This probably sounds alien to Americans. The idea that you can be discriminated against purely from your family tree and nothing else. That genetically and physically you can look just like everyone else and still get ostracised.
Japan has many problems. But trying to import a problem from other societies, that made no sense to the Japanese people, is not going to be an easy sell.
Yeah. I think this says more about Nintendo and gaming as a whole rather than just smash.
The only dark skinned character that could still get in is Elma I think.
I'd say in terms of women, anyone who's female by default should count (I.E. Inkling & Wii Fit Trainer are fair game).
User Banned (2 Weeks): Trolling and dismissing concerns surrounding representation
Yawn. Why is this an issue? It's not,.
I had a response typed up for this, but the last thread was locked before I could post it.
The issues comes from a couple of factors.
1) Most of the characters that come from smash are from Japanese developers.
2) Roughly 2/3rds of the cast of Ultimate are characters created prior to 1996, with a large portion being from the 80s.
3) There are a fair amount of anthropomorphic characters
4) While they aren't black (Or PoCs), there are a lot of cartoon, we had an interesting conversation earlier this year about characters seen as black but are drawn as green or blue or various other colors: https://www.resetera.com/threads/cartoon-anime-characters-who-are-seen-as-black.6304/
Personally, I would love to see more, but I understand that since smash is more of a history pull into the present, I understand why the PoCs aren't as represented. At the very least, it seems like Nintendo is making SOME effort with complexion changes on Villager and Inkling alts.
As a small victory, at least The gender ratio has gotten better with each game. Smash 64 only really had 1 female rep (2 if you count the puff).
The issues comes from a couple of factors.
1) Most of the characters that come from smash are from Japanese developers.
2) Roughly 2/3rds of the cast of Ultimate are characters created prior to 1996, with a large portion being from the 80s.
3) There are a fair amount of anthropomorphic characters
4) While they aren't black (Or PoCs), there are a lot of cartoon, we had an interesting conversation earlier this year about characters seen as black but are drawn as green or blue or various other colors: https://www.resetera.com/threads/cartoon-anime-characters-who-are-seen-as-black.6304/
Personally, I would love to see more, but I understand that since smash is more of a history pull into the present, I understand why the PoCs aren't as represented. At the very least, it seems like Nintendo is making SOME effort with complexion changes on Villager and Inkling alts.
As a small victory, at least The gender ratio has gotten better with each game. Smash 64 only really had 1 female rep (2 if you count the puff).
Yeah I mean, Nintendo as with most Japanese developers has a huge problem with racial diversity in their games. Simply having a few token "dark skinned" characters isn't enough either.
More characters that actually look Black/African or South Asian for example, without also being stereotypes would be ace, but the industry lags behind while it's caught up in a discussion of gender perpetuated predominantly by white middle class men and women.
Not to diminish the issues that women have in the industry at all, but as a black man and PoC, I'm much lower on the pecking order than white women, and that's also reflected in the range of characters we see in videogames. We have a longer way to go in that regard as far as I'm concerned.
Rant over.
More characters that actually look Black/African or South Asian for example, without also being stereotypes would be ace, but the industry lags behind while it's caught up in a discussion of gender perpetuated predominantly by white middle class men and women.
Not to diminish the issues that women have in the industry at all, but as a black man and PoC, I'm much lower on the pecking order than white women, and that's also reflected in the range of characters we see in videogames. We have a longer way to go in that regard as far as I'm concerned.
Rant over.
Well, Twintelle, Marina and Urbosa.
And from guest series you can have Leo, Barett and Sazch from FF and Rodin from Bayonetta.
These are just characters off the top of my head from games I've played, I'm sure there are more.
It's ridiculous for some people to say Nintendo can't pull black characters from their own or third party media when those characters do exist.
And from guest series you can have Leo, Barett and Sazch from FF and Rodin from Bayonetta.
These are just characters off the top of my head from games I've played, I'm sure there are more.
It's ridiculous for some people to say Nintendo can't pull black characters from their own or third party media when those characters do exist.
Yeah it's better then brawl which added no new women unless you count zero suit samus
Almost had dixie Kong in brawl
Then she was snubbed again and again
It says a lot about the industry and the fact that, in the history of gaming, there are not so many notable not-white characters.
About Nintendo, at least Ganondorf, black Inklings and Villagers are in. Not a lot, but probably the most they could do considering the source material.
About Nintendo, at least Ganondorf, black Inklings and Villagers are in. Not a lot, but probably the most they could do considering the source material.
Not uncommon from a Japanese developer, I don't know if they think about it as much as we do in the states. Easy to forget things like this when 100% of your population is 5'5 w/ black hair.
You forgot Robin as a non-default option, also Zero Suit Samus and Shiek (yes I know that one blog used male pronouns but I'm confident that was a typo)
Can't really be addressed asap as there are not many dark-skinned characters that are leads in reasonably popular series, unless they're customized with skin color options.
regardless of the spoiler Elma is still meaningful because they could have easily made her white skinned and no one would have known any different choosing to give her a darker skin tone is always significant because people of color in the main cast of characters are still rarely done. Beyond race Elma and Twintelle are just great characters and good designs. Elma is a bad ass and her game XCX desired to sell more.
As a black guy getting older I start to pass up games because I just no longer want to just play another white dude. RDR2 just came out and seriously I just don't want to play through someone else's story anymore.
It is just time that developers start paying attention to this shit. Spiderman is great and I love the character but my PS4 is collecting dust because I refuse to keep waiting. It is kinda a waste of time to even try to fight for such things I feel.
Is Black Panther the game coming? Nope... And I won't waste my energy begging for it.
Elma is for all intents and purposes the main character of X. The avatar exists for online reasons and sidequests but you're basically just along for the ride for the main story where Elma is the star. This was emphasized more when she appeared in Xenoblade 2 alongside Shulk and Rex. It would be a real shame if she gets skipped over in favor of Rex.
Twintelle is popular enough and Spring Man got AT'd so maybe she has a shot now.
I wonder if the Ever Oasis protagonist would ever have a shot. I think they were a Spirit now.
Also Pikachu Libra, the lil' legend. I think I'm right in saying that's the only case where a Smash Pokémon's gender is determined? Even though Incineroar is typically referred to as he due to a typically masculine build, it could still be female
By that argument, any game that has katanas is a game filled with Japanese people. And there are far more katanas in Western games than they have any right to be.
The fact is D&D was the origin of most RPGs, and many weapon and armour elements were imported in Japan that way. But if you then insist that everyone is European, then you are stretching that too far.
Nintendo has always been bad about minority representation.
I still get salty about Awakening and Fates create a character.
I still get salty about Awakening and Fates create a character.
Why is it issue when its any other dev?
Here is 23 page long issue Squadron 42 trailer came out: https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-...k-of-diversity-depicted-in-squadron-42.74879/
Its totally different tone there than here when Nintendo actually is the most "racist" dev.
Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite had the same issue and wasn't rectified until DLC. Even then it's kind of a bad move to regulate inclusion into DLC only.
No seriously, just look at the series that were chosen to get new characters and think about if PoC characters could've been reasonably chosen instead
Simply put, Nintendo is REALLY BAD about PoC main characters.
- Splatoon - Character is an avatar with skin color options. Unfortunately the Splatoon 1 Inklings are default white. At least they changed it for 2 but it was too late for this game.
- Metroid - Your only PoC option is Anthony, who appeared in one game that a lot of people didn't like.
- Castlevania - Every single main character is white.
- Donkey Kong - No human characters
- Animal Crossing - No more human characters (unless they added "Villager 2")
- Pokemon - Could've added another trainer, but that's much more work than adding in a Pokemon (and the Pokemon are the real characters essentially).
Simply put, Nintendo is REALLY BAD about PoC main characters.
Never knew that. He always looked like the American character palette swap.
The invisibility of so many ethnicities in a mascot-style game with such a huge roster really gives a window on what's considered central or "normal," and what's not. And it can be infuriating. People want to see themselves in their entertainment, especially when it's supposedly tailored to a mass market. At the very least, it's a missed opportunity.
If anyone's interested in a musician who has some incredible pieces touching on how it feels recognizing that in entertainment you otherwise love, I strongly recommend checking out Sammus. Also, go see a danged live show.
If anyone's interested in a musician who has some incredible pieces touching on how it feels recognizing that in entertainment you otherwise love, I strongly recommend checking out Sammus. Also, go see a danged live show.
I will say this while genuinely respecting the point that OP made : I do not want them to put a black / brown character in smash brothers just for the sake of putting one. I would rather get the most iconic characters regardless of their skin color. What I mean by this is that skin color should not be a criteria that Sakurai considers when thinking about upcoming challengers.
Of course this is just my opinion and it's an interesting topic of debate.
Of course this is just my opinion and it's an interesting topic of debate.
That's actually a good point. With Spring Man & Ribbon Girl(?) out of the running, Twintelle has a legitimate shot at being DLC. But my concern is that if the main character can't get in, what hope does Twintelle have? Granted, Twintelle definitely has popularity on her side (at least in the West), but still.Elma is for all intents and purposes the main character of X. The avatar exists for online reasons and sidequests but you're basically just along for the ride for the main story where Elma is the star. This was emphasized more when she appeared in Xenoblade 2 alongside Shulk and Rex. It would be a real shame if she gets skipped over in favor of Rex.
Twintelle is popular enough and Spring Man got AT'd so maybe she has a shot now.
I wonder if the Ever Oasis protagonist would ever have a shot. I think they were a Spirit now.
Yeah, that was a weird argument, European inspired armor and weapons are in Japanese games because those things are cool, nothing more, nothing less.
I thought Twintelle would have been a lock. Regardless, not something I notice too much with Smash Bros.
I think the deepest cut (or worst comment) on the matter of representation was Tekken 7, Bruce was replaced by Rosie and then Harada said they really don't think about representation.
I think the deepest cut (or worst comment) on the matter of representation was Tekken 7, Bruce was replaced by Rosie and then Harada said they really don't think about representation.
Mario Kart 8 is kinda a strange example because over half of the human characters are variations of other human characters.
Mario, Mario's Twin Brother, Baby Mario, Metal Mario, Evil Mario, Evil Mario's Twin Brother...
Also, I dunno if this matters or not, but the female variant of all those characters with male/female alts are vastly more played than the male ones in Smash 4. I also expect this to be true for the Inkling with Pokemon Trainer potentially being an exception.
...Well, except for maybe Villager (which is about an even split) and the Mii Fighters (but no one cares about them anyways).
There is also female Robin, two female Pikachu alts, and half of the Ice Climber alts have Nana as the lead character.
I know it's not black, but I really liked how Daisy had a darker skin tone in these LINE stickers and Mario Tennis and wished that they used it for the jump to the switch. It's a bit sad that it didn't happen, because it's just something slight to make the cast more diverse without having to create a new relevant character, and it'd make sense for her, coming from a desert kingdom.
At the same time, I think that maybe the push for more black people/diversity is just something that's more clear to see in North America than in other countries, specially Japan. I suppose if NoA had more to say on the bussiness, things would be different.
In Europe we have many african inmigrants and I guess it'd be nice for them to get more representation so that they feel more included in society, but normally when I read about diversity it feels to be focused black-american people.
Which... I guess makes sense in an English forum, uh.
The only characters I can think of that are specified to be from America are Little Mac and Solid Snake, but maybe talking about this is missing the point, as those fiction kingdoms could have been created to have fictional diverse people too.
At the same time, I think that maybe the push for more black people/diversity is just something that's more clear to see in North America than in other countries, specially Japan. I suppose if NoA had more to say on the bussiness, things would be different.
In Europe we have many african inmigrants and I guess it'd be nice for them to get more representation so that they feel more included in society, but normally when I read about diversity it feels to be focused black-american people.
Which... I guess makes sense in an English forum, uh.
The only characters I can think of that are specified to be from America are Little Mac and Solid Snake, but maybe talking about this is missing the point, as those fiction kingdoms could have been created to have fictional diverse people too.
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It would have been great to get some black/brown character in the game. It's just the limitation of the series chosen to be in the game may have those characters in them but they aren't significant or even if they are you wouldn't per say put in Barrett over Cloud as the one FF rep. Smash is a reflection of the lack of diversity in gaming protagonists, I don't really blame the Smash devs for that I blame gaming as a whole.
