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So bitcoin and the energy used

C4lukin

C4lukin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
613
Tejas
I know this is not specific to Bitcoin. There are dozens of these crypto currency things going on.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ectricity-may-run-out/?utm_term=.c50b9f96caaf

The gist of the article is that in Iceland, a crazy amount of energy is being burned in order to mine the various currencies.

But I think there is an argument to be had here. Especially because the idea behind it is not left or right.

We are using a ton of energy, to create fake money, with no benefit to anyone as far as the energy used.

We are simply burning resources, to create artificial money, that is often used on the black market.

We are literally burning resources to create imagenery money. None of it is going towards infrastructure or developing humanity. It is like playing Candyland, and each colored card is a bunch of energy used.
 
DevilMayGuy

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
Yeah I'm floored by the amount of electricity my hobbyist mining rig uses. And so far as I can tell, the only thing etherium is used for at this point is tracking etherium lol.

But if someone is gonna pay me 12x the electricity cost to mine, I guess I'm game for now.
 
Brandson

Brandson

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,219
The energy consumed is the cost of securing the decentralized network. It would be preferable if there were other ways of providing that security that did not consume so much energy and there are many efforts to research alternative approaches. But the mining does actually provide a benefit, in being able to ensure that the rules underpinning a decentralized asset are enforced. Government-backed money has no such mechanism, so it can be printed whenever that government decides to do so. Whether you view that as a good thing or a bad thing about fiat currency informs how you value a decentralized asset like Bitcoin. For now, Bitcoin couldn't exist without mining.
 
DBT85

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,283
As I actually asked only yesterday in the footy thread. More of this huge computing power needs to be used for things that need solving like the protein folding thing or seti etc. Use it for something that needs solving at least.
 
Brohan

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
It is one of the reasons why i like (delegated)proof of stake coins better. These require much less energy to secure the network.

As for all your other points.. You don't seem to have actually researched crypto all that much.
 
Nooblet

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,637
Brohan said:
It is one of the reasons why i like (delegated)proof of stake coins better. These require much less energy to secure the network.

As for all your other points.. You don't seem to actually really researched crypto all that much.
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Brandson said:
The energy consumed is the cost of securing the decentralized network. It would be preferable if there were other ways of providing that security that did not consume so much energy and there are many efforts to research alternative approaches. But the mining does actually provide a benefit, in being able to ensure that the rules underpinning a decentralized asset are enforced. Government-backed money has no such mechanism, so it can be printed whenever that government decides to do so. Whether you view that as a good thing or a bad thing about fiat currency informs how you value a decentralized asset like Bitcoin. For now, Bitcoin couldn't exist without mining.
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What these guys said.
And yes crypto coins are not "fake money" and fiat i.e. "real money" is just as fake with no actual value, except that it's controlled by the banks and government.
 
Fliesen

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,254
OP
OP
C4lukin

C4lukin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
613
Tejas
Brohan said:
It is one of the reasons why i like (delegated)proof of stake coins better. These require much less energy to secure the network.

As for all your other points.. You don't seem to actually really researched crypto all that much.
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Well I am trying to understand it. And I would love people to correct me when I am wrong.

Just from an environmental perspective though, I find it hard to compare the burning of energy in this way. It is not heating homes, it is not slowing down the burning of fossil fuels... It is simply burning energy in order to create an unregulated money market.
 
tokkun

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,409
C4lukin said:
Well I am trying to understand it. And I would love people to correct me when I am wrong.

Just from an environmental perspective though, I find it hard to compare the burning of energy in this way. It is not heating homes, it is not slowing down the burning of fossil fuels... It is simply burning energy in order to create an unregulated money market.
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You aren't wrong. People bring up proof-of-stake, but the practical reality is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the market cap of cryptocurrency is proof-of-work at present.

Perhaps we will transition to proof-of-stake at some point in the future, but the present reality of cryptocurrency is the terrible environmental impact you outlined. That should not be hand-waved, especially because it is not particularly clear how such a transition would happen when there is so much money invested in proof-of-work-based currencies.
 
John Caboose

John Caboose

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,200
Sweden
C4lukin said:
Well I am trying to understand it. And I would love people to correct me when I am wrong.

Just from an environmental perspective though, I find it hard to compare the burning of energy in this way. It is not heating homes, it is not slowing down the burning of fossil fuels... It is simply burning energy in order to create an unregulated money market.
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You're not wrong.
 
Aureon

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
C4lukin said:
Yes I am a financial advisor.

And neither industry just burns fuel in order to exist. At the very least the companies involved are providing a product.

The energy goes to providing an actual service.
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That service is moving value around.
Which is the same thing cryptocurrency accomplishes.
 
killerrin

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,238
Toronto
We also have to remember that the environmental costs of energy are completely different from region to region. Some places are mostly coal and fossil fuels and are the worst environmentally to mine under. On the other hand, some places are mostly renewable sources like Wind, Solar and Hydro which kills the environmental argument.

In the same vein, some places generate way too much energy already, and some not enough requiring them to make up the difference (often using fossil fuels). There is also an emerging third set of places which generate power all the time and store it when its not needed until when it is needed.
 
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Brohan

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
C4lukin said:
Well I am trying to understand it. And I would love people to correct me when I am wrong.

Just from an environmental perspective though, I find it hard to compare the burning of energy in this way. It is not heating homes, it is not slowing down the burning of fossil fuels... It is simply burning energy in order to create an unregulated money market.
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As someone who cares about the environment, i too hate this aspect of cryptocurrencies and i hope better solutions will be found soon.

It is also one of the reasons that my cryptocurrency portfolio exists mostly out of (Delegated) Proof of Stake or (D)pos which require much less energy than Proof of Work coins do (BTC and Ethereum being the most well known).

Thankfully more and more coins are making the switch to Proof of stake, even Ethereum is in the process of switching over. While others are coming up with hybrid systems (pow/pos). So hopefully we will see the consumption of energy go down in time.

As for cryptocurrenies being nothing more than fake internet money that has no purpose i wholeheartedly disagree. I believe this technology can improve many aspects of our lives and make the world a better place.
 
cervanky

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Brohan said:
As someone who cares about the environment, i too hate this aspect of cryptocurrencies and i hope better solutions will be found soon.

It is also one of the reasons that my cryptocurrency portfolio exists mostly out of (Delegated) Proof of Stake or (D)pos which require much less energy than Proof of Work coins do (BTC and Ethereum being the most well known).

Thankfully more and more coins are making the switch to Proof of stake, even Ethereum is in the process of switching over. While others are coming up with hybrid systems (pow/pos). So hopefully we will see the consumption of energy go down in time.

As for cryptocurrenies being nothing more than fake internet money that has no purpose i wholeheartedly disagree. I believe this technology can improve many aspects of our lives and make the world a better place.
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I agree. I think it's the worst part about cryptocurrency. People can argue back and forth on whether or not there's any genuine, world-improving merit to these coins (and I'm with you in thinking that for some of them, there absolutely is), but I think it should be crystal clear to anyone that proof of work is a wasteful drain of our energy resources and needs to go asap.

Again, I really do believe in blockchain, but I'd argue that these cryptocurrencies have not saved businesses as much money as they have cost through energy spent (setting aside their traded value). The majority of those proof of work coins haven't really done anything yet outside of act as a commodity traded between speculators. I've invested in some coins and tokens that I think will ultimately save folks some money and have real utility but c'mon, have coins like ZCash (ZEC) made the world a better place, improved businesses' efficiency or reduced their costs in some other way? I don't think so.
 
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Smoothcb

Smoothcb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,083
I'm personally a fan a Directed Acyclic Graphs and Proof of Stake as alternatives. When applied correctly they can provide methods of trickle down economics with coins that have actual utility.
 
Kyzer

Kyzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,709
The environmental impact NEEDS to be addressed, it's become too much. Proof of work alternatives will hopefully completely take over and not only lessen the electrical burden but also take away power from the mining cartels who run farms and coordinate to manipulate the market.
 
Brohan

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
cervanky said:
I agree. I think it's the worst part about cryptocurrency. People can argue back and forth on whether or not there's any genuine, world-improving merit to these coins (and I'm with you in thinking that for some of them, there absolutely is), but I think it should be crystal clear to anyone that proof of work is incredibly damaging to the environment and needs to go asap.
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Yeah it seems we are on the same level and i do believe that most people in the crypto scene understand that proof of work is very wasteful. Proof of Work isn't sustainable at all plus in the case of BTC which is not ASIC resistant.. I believe one of the reasons for PoW has already been defeated.

I believe the point wasn't only the secure the network and handle the transactions etc but it was also meant to keep it (BTC) decentralized. At first this worked when everyone could mine on their GPU's and even their laptops but ever since ASIC miners this has all changed.

Nobody is using GPU's anymore to mine bitcoins because it's just not profitable anymore due to the difficulty level. Bitcoins are now mined by a few big companies that use large amount of ASIC miners which means that Bitcoin isn't really that decentralized anymore.

So Yeah, ill be happy too once PoW gets replaced by something better.
 
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Mathieran

Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,863
Yeah, as an environmentalist I can't support this. As someone who goes great lengths to reduce my carbon footprint I'm not gonna be burning energy to mine bitcoins.

If I had a renewable power source powering my home I suppose I would feel differently.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
But you see it's fine because a few nerds made millions, burned energy redeemed
Sigh, what a fucking waste
 
Possum Armada

Possum Armada

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,630
Greenville, SC
NoMoreTrolls said:
Yeah I'm floored by the amount of electricity my hobbyist mining rig uses. And so far as I can tell, the only thing etherium is used for at this point is tracking etherium lol.

But if someone is gonna pay me 12x the electricity cost to mine, I guess I'm game for now.
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The post pretty much sums up humanity in my opinion: "I care about the world around me until I can make money harming it."
 
Brohan

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
Blue said:
You notice you only hear this from people trying to justify their speculative positive on Bitcoin?
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I think that might have to do with the fact that alot of people don't do any research before commenting on something.

Whereas those who have an investment in crypto must have done at least sone research to know what they are putting their money in. Ofcourse there are plenty of people putting their money in crypto without doing any proper research and they will nost likely end up Losing their money and then join the crypto is a scam crowd.
 

Deleted member 4212

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,872
Kyuuji said:
Do you understand the applications of blockchain aside from "a few nerds" making money?
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Almost no one needs blockchain.

Do you need a Blockchain?

h6WLjKB.png


The use cases for blockchain are limited and wildly overvalued.
 
Kyzer

Kyzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,709
Anyone not mining with cheaper electricity via solar is an idiot btw

Also just an FYI for discussion purposes most mining is done by gigantic conglomerates and farms, not regular people nor investors
 
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