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So China, what can be done?

smurfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,678
well automation is gonna take manufacturing away from china so that's one. other than that i don't know what can really be done. at this point china is the only one that can fuck china's future up.
 

Echo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,487
Mt. Whatever
Nothing. Remember Tibet? People said a lot of shit but nothing was done. Now their culture is destroyed. And what even were the consequences of this? What were the punishments for the crimes and human atrocities committed there?

Now we have a similar situation. Everyone is talking but nobody with power is gonna do shit. My heart feels heavy for the people of HK, it upsets me greatly that the "world" continues to sit by and allow this to happen.

It's a tough situation. Direct actions such as Military strikes/blockades or much MUCH fiercer trade war policies would be disastrous on a global scale.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
You are not going to regime change China, seriously, it's not gonna happen, and I don't think stomping your feet and hoping that you could have done it is a smart way to go about things.
I'm also not sure it's smart to root for an economic collapse. This will hurt a ton of people all over the world, and for what?
That maybe something better comes out on the other side?
I don't think that you can say dire economic conditions always lead to positive and rational political and geopolitical outcomes.

For real, people really want a another cold war?
That policy led to awful results.

You gotta consider what you can and cannot do because randomly flailing its political and economical power like the US does in regards to China is not something that I see doing anything productive.
Like, it's not helping the people of Tibet or Xinjiang.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,276
They are a bit precarious internally, with a massive real estate bubble, an insane male/female imbalance (40m+ more young men than women), and economic underpinnings that may be wildly inefficient and bloated (thats a debatable point). Not to mention things like climate change will hurt their own internal health, water, food, etc far more than Western countries. One little thing could tip everything over, which sort of explains why the Hong Kong thing is being attacked so aggressively by the government to stomp any turmoil, but as with all things governments do it may backfire massively.
 

Burt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,635
China’s hit critical mass and can ‘self-sustain’ at a level that it’d be willing to accept under sanctions, considering the reciprocity would be more damaging to the west and the chief concern of the Chinese government is maintaining power. Meeting China with broad economic sanctions is meeting their strength with the international community’s weakness. And they don’t actually give a shit if you deny them Marvel, not that bootlegs wouldn’t be showing up in premium theater chains the day of, anyway.You need to find the cracks and drive in a wedge if you want to affect change in China.

- Magnitsky-style sanctions on specific high-level party members and their families, bundled with travel bans. Should be self-explanatory.

- A ban on Chinese investment in Western real estate markets. Chinese citizens make huge investments abroad in real estate out of concern about the stability of their own government and banking systems, as well as utilizing property as a means of gaining citizenship for themselves and their families. Chinese ghost cities and, like, all of Canada, apparently, are the emblematic examples of this issue on opposite sides of the spectrum. Closing off this avenue would create significant domestic pressure in China directly on the middle class and newly wealthy that are the core of what allows the Chinese government to do what it does.

- A ban on Chinese students from international higher education. China’s hyper-competitive, hyper-arduous education system is extremely well-documented. For a huge portion of those in the new middle class and rich, college acceptance was the difference between being a reasonably compensated white collar worker and going back to working in the fields and factories with their parents. Chinese schools are getting better, but they still don’t have the educational infrastructure to meet their needs. Even if they did, there’s something like 300,000 to 400,000 Chinese students studying abroad in the US alone. Dumping that number of students back into the Chinese system would light the middle class on fire.

All three of these would have to be applied at least across the entirety of North America and more than half of Europe.
 
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kitress

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
The majority of mainland Chinese citizens are even more gung ho than the CCP. So whatever hope people got for the average mainland Chineses is greatly misplaced. The xenophobic propaganda from CCP has convinced the people that they have suffered a great national shame from Western powers and Japanese imperialism. They're all pumped up for a fight, just like Germany after the great shame they suffered in the aftermath of WWI. Which is why anytime a Korean, Japanese, US or any company has anything remotely negative about China, the fiercest backlash comes from the average mainland Chinese without any prompt from the government. Heck, look at how they treat HK people and take into account that they are all Chinese.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
880
The world exploited China as cheap manufacturing and labor for decades, you reap what you saw.
The state is consolidated with the progress of city style life.
(Damn submitted before finishing)
The future of China is in Chinese people's hands. I wouldn't count on a Soviet
Style split though, even if regional resentment can be strong.
They publish more scientific papers than the rest of the world and are taking lead in key domains, so they will not be as dependent on foreign tech.
 
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Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
They are a bit precarious internally, with a massive real estate bubble, an insane male/female imbalance (40m+ more young men than women), and economic underpinnings that may be wildly inefficient and bloated (thats a debatable point). Not to mention things like climate change will hurt their own internal health, water, food, etc far more than Western countries. One little thing could tip everything over, which sort of explains why the Hong Kong thing is being attacked so aggressively by the government to stomp any turmoil, but as with all things governments do it may backfire massively.
People have been making those predictions that China is a sham economy that is gonna collapse in the next 18 months tops for over a decade.
I am not so certain that it's true, and again, I don't know why anyone would root for those outcomes.
Do you understand this is almost certainly create a global recession which will be way worse and way longer than the great recession?
 

Iceman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
543
Alhambra, CA
well automation is gonna take manufacturing away from china so that's one. other than that i don't know what can really be done. at this point china is the only one that can fuck china's future up.
I feel like this is the best (and inevitable) approach, i.e. change the game globally.

The other, (if you can believe it) more difficult approach is to blur the nationalistic boundary lines by empowering digital (underground) networks of civilians, and somehow circumventing or even decimating the great firewall.

Of course, the PRC is trying to stay ahead of both approaches by racing to win in quantum cryptography.. for both snooping on others (internally & externally) as well as protecting their own comms.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
834
China’s hit critical mass and can ‘self-sustain’ at a level that it’d be willing to accept under sanctions, considering the reciprocity would be more damaging to the west and the chief concern of the Chinese government is maintaining power. Meeting China with broad economic sanctions is meeting their strength with the international community’s weakness. And they don’t actually give a shit if you deny them Marvel, not that bootlegs wouldn’t be showing up in premium theater chains the day of, anyway.You need to find the cracks and drive in a wedge if you want to affect change in China.
Agreed.

- Magnitsky-style sanctions on specific high-level party members and their families, bundled with travel bans. Should be self-explanatory.

- A ban on Chinese investment in Western real estate markets. Chinese citizens make huge investments abroad in real estate out of concern about the stability of their own government and banking systems, as well as utilizing property as a means of gaining citizenship for themselves and their families. Chinese ghost cities and, like, all of Canada, apparently, are the emblematic examples of this issue on opposite sides of the spectrum. Closing off this avenue would create significant domestic pressure in China directly on the middle class and newly wealthy that are the core of what allows the Chinese government to do what it does.

- A ban on Chinese students from international higher education. China’s hyper-competitive, hyper-arduous educational system is extremely well documented. For a huge portion of those in the new middle-class and rich, college acceptance was the difference between being a reasonably-compensated white collar worker and going back to working in the fields and factories with their parents. Chinese schools are getting better, but they still don’t have the educational infrastructure to meet their needs. Even if they did, there’s something like 300,000 to 400,000 Chinese students studying abroad in the US alone. Dumping that number of students back into the Chinese system would light the middle class on fire.

All three of these would have to be applied at least across the entirety of North America and more than half of Europe.
I get the feeling that this would only make the Chinese populace feel that they're being attacked unfairly; thereby making it less politically viable to give into Western demands. China may not be a democracy but the CCP still likes to do things that are popular with the people.
 

Iceman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
543
Alhambra, CA
- A ban on Chinese students from international higher education. China’s hyper-competitive, hyper-arduous educational system is extremely well documented. For a huge portion of those in the new middle-class and rich, college acceptance was the difference between being a reasonably-compensated white collar worker and going back to working in the fields and factories with their parents. Chinese schools are getting better, but they still don’t have the educational infrastructure to meet their needs. Even if they did, there’s something like 300,000 to 400,000 Chinese students studying abroad in the US alone. Dumping that number of students back into the Chinese system would light the middle class on fire.
This is a good one. (as someone who's had part of their research stolen/republished by a Chinese national - in order to secure a faculty position in China - I am a bit biased, and it would be personally satisfying). At the same time, one of my favorite grad school peers was a Chinese national that now conducts research in Canada.

But you'd have to convince thousands (5000+) of schools to turn down an enormous amount of cash (full tuition & fees, no scholarships) that they depend on & expect annually.

I expect a fight here. But I would welcome the change. It'd elevate the level of education available to a significant portion of American students (like you said).
 
Oct 27, 2017
359
It's so ironic that the rise of China as an economic superpower and military might of today was caused by western companies investing in them in the first place especially from the US but it was also the US who want to stop the spread of communism and the so-called dominoes effects in 1960s culminating in the tragedies of the Vietnam war with millions of lives lost and Vietnam is still a communist nation. The only way to stop China from this is through their economic growth and the only way to do that is for companies to move their production elsewhere.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
The Chinese revolution that will happen in a few years
I don't think the Chinese people by and large are terribly eager to overthrow their government in a violent revolution.
You can argue that they should, I don't know, maybe at some point in the future they would, but I don't think it's smart to pretend like this is an imminent forgone conclusion.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
834
I don't think the Chinese people by and large are terribly eager to overthrow their government in a violent revolution.
You can argue that they should, I don't know, maybe at some point in the future they would, but I don't think it's smart to pretend like this is an imminent forgone conclusion.
I'm not sure why anyone thinks that a new revolution would end up more pro-West than the CCP.
 

benru

Member
Feb 7, 2018
16
Chinese people would never ever revolt against the CCP unless their economy turns REALLY bad (and I mean REALLY REALLY bad). It's the sad truth. Most people don't understand the level of indoctrination that is happening in China right now. When Chinese people who've lived for nearly a decade in a western country still support the CCP, nationalism has reached heights never before seen. We've reached a point where "CCP" and "China" is completely indistinguishable for Chinese people.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
Yeah this is what I'm thinking would be somewhat effective. Also side note your avatar with the one word answer had me resisting so hard to reply with some Always Sunny Dee joke.
Why would you think it would be effective?
America made most of the western world have pretty much not relationships with China for a quarter century. I don't think that policy was a success.

Do you really want another cold war?
You think that was a good, successful foreign policy doctrine?
I think it was catastrophic.
And the USSR at least kinda wanted that conflict. China doesn't want any of that shit.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that a new revolution would end up more pro-West than the CCP.
Agreed.
 

digdug2k

Member
Mar 28, 2018
657
It's internal. There is nothing to do. Increase information. Provide homes for refugees. Publicly condemn.

The best thing we can do for China is help bring their poor out of poverty. Education. Money. Human services. Help build those things for them. It won't happen though, because America doesn't want them any richer than they already are.
 

Burt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,635
I get the feeling that this would only make the Chinese populace feel that they're being attacked unfairly; thereby making it less politically viable to give into Western demands. China may not be a democracy but the CCP still likes to do things that are popular with the people.
It’s easy to have support when a government’s goal of strengthening China and an individual’s goal of economic security at perfectly aligned. When the policies that the government feels it needs to maintain authority on issues like free speech, territorial sovereignty, and minority repression start hitting regular citizens in the wallet, well, that’s the CCP’s version of what Blizzard and the NBA are going through right now. People, as a whole, really only care about their wallets.

I think the student thing is a bit of a nuclear option though, going after the kids and all. But we’re probably past due on real estate restrictions to at least test the waters.
 

squeakywheel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,013
As I've grown older, I'm realizing how much of an idiot I have been buying stuff I don't need. We should all start buying second hand stuff more (yes, even clothes) and buy more local goods. The money you save not buying new (or not buying at all) can be used for more expensive stuff like organic items grown as local as possible. Capitalism and greed caused this. We empowered China and now we are stuck with them, for better or for worse. It will take a few generations to decouple from their supply chain but it can be (and should be) done. There are no easy short-term fixes for this. Our only true hope is their populace wise up and realize they've been brainwashed and that Winnie the Pooh is in fact, not their benevolent savior but only in it for himself (just like Drumpf) .
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
834
It’s easy to have support when a government’s goal of strengthening China and an individual’s goal of economic security at perfectly aligned. When the policies that the government feels it needs to maintain authority on issues like free speech, territorial sovereignty, and minority repression start hitting regular citizens in the wallet, well, that’s the CCP’s version of what Blizzard and the NBA are going through right now. People, as a whole, really only care about their wallets.

I think the student thing is a bit of a nuclear option though, going after the kids and all. But we’re probably past due on real estate restrictions to at least test the waters.
But the regular citizens like the territorial sovereignty and minority repression parts, and they're willing to put up with the free speech constraints to get them. Any action like this will be seen by the general populace as an attack on China (because it is), and they're going to gather around the flag and probably demand harsher responses than the federal government is comfortable with. A stick-only approach is only going to backfire. A carrot-and-stick approach might work better, but that carrot had better be something good.
 

Mewshuji

Member
Nov 11, 2017
3,422
Not a lot, if anything.
  • Boycotting anything "Made in China"? Not an option for many Americans- cheap clothing and other necessities are too valuable for too large a portion of the population. So, any such boycott would be unsuccessful, as there is no alternative. We'd have to improve our own quality of life before we could even attempt that. Anyone boycotting would just be well off people who care about what happens in other countries, which there aren't a lot of.
  • Sanctions? That'll just cut off supplies for the most vulnerable. It's always a poor tactic that does little to punish those who do harm, save in situations where the sanctions would decidedly actually choke the leadership. China is slowly becoming an economic powerhouse that will easily rival if not eclipse the US on the world stage, so sanctions would in no way harm the CPC enough to get them to reconsider their current vile actions.
  • Invasion? Right, like the West can be trusted in other countries to not kill innocents or foment more authoritarianism. No. Not to mention China's immense military capabilities.
  • Support protesters of Chinese authoritarianism outside of merely spreading information? As if China won't try their hardest to cut off our supply line to them. It could also be then easily spun as "international influence causing trouble" by the CPC, which would cause more good than harm.
We can certainly try to do things such as protesting/boycotting the NBA or Activision-Blizzard, due to their attempts to silence protesters and due to them being not only American companies, but entertainment companies. But in the end, we're not Chinese nationals. There's little actual action we can do that won't put innocent blood on our hands via imperialism- whether literal or cultural- or that will actually make China feel anything.

As has been pointed out, we can also endeavor to better our own society, which decays and furthers its own descent towards either fascism, authoritarianism, or collapse as we speak. Providing an example of good policy that works can help to inspire potential resistances.

I suppose I could in theory be convinced to support a military intervention in the case of the Uyghur massacre. That comes with a lot of caveats though. It would have to be a mission to aid a self-determined people who need help. To go in unbeckoned is tantamount to imperialism. Additionally, said peoples would need to support even remotely progressive ideals. In every occasion after Korea , it's been in "our" (read: the corporations' and US government's power apparatus including the CIA and FBI) best interests to support right wing rebels and uprisings over more egalitarian minded ones- should the latter even exist. So that's not happening. But then, there would also have to be strict guidelines to prevent civilian causalities from our own attacks or those of our allies. And THAT is something the US has repeatedly refused to do even during the Korean War. This isn't even getting into the fact that China has a vast military easily near our level of might, and they'd be on the defensive.

In other words, in practice, there'd be no way an intervention could actually work without making us as culpable of war crimes and violations of human rights as the CPC. Perhaps not as bad. But still far beyond acceptable conduct. Let alone a war we could actually win.

In that case, though, as an alternative I could suggest offering asylum to those who wish to escape... but to offer such people a happy, safe life when so many in the Anglosphere would wish them harm would be a cruel ruse, and an uphill battle to remove elements who would protest such an offer. Again, it turns to us to improve our own countries first.

In summary: absolutely, spread the word about China's atrocities. But there's not much at all that we can do without just causing more harm or doing the equivalent of flipping someone the bird outside of that and, again, improving our own countries to show a way forward/give an actual good asylum.
 
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wandering

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467
Pacific Northwest
Not a lot, if anything.
  • Boycotting anything "Made in China"? Not an option for many Americans- cheap clothing and other necessities are too valuable for too large a portion of the population. So, any such boycott would be unsuccessful, as there is no alternative. We'd have to improve our own quality of life before we could even attempt that. Anyone boycotting would just be well off people who care about what happens in other countries, which there aren't a lot of.
  • Sanctions? That'll just cut off supplies for the most vulnerable. It's always a poor tactic that does little to punish those who do harm, save in situations where the sanctions would decidedly actually choke the leadership. China is slowly becoming an economic powerhouse that will easily rival if not eclipse the US on the world stage, so sanctions would in no way harm the CPC enough to get them to reconsider their current vile actions.
  • Invasion? Right, like the West can be trusted in other countries to not kill innocents or foment more authoritarianism. No.
  • Support protesters of Chinese authoritarianism outside of merely spreading information? As if China won't try their hardest to cut off our supply line to them. It could also be then easily spun as "international influence causing trouble" by the CPC, which would cause more good than harm.
We can certainly try to do things such as protesting/boycotting the NBA or Activision-Blizzard, due to their attempts to silence protesters and due to them being not only American companies, but entertainment companies. But in the end, we're not Chinese nationals. There's little actual action we can do that won't put innocent blood on our hands via imperialism- whether literal or cultural- or that will actually make China feel anything.

As has been pointed out, we can also endeavor to better our own society, which decays and furthers its own descent towards either fascism, authoritarianism, or collapse as we speak. Providing an example of good policy that works can help to inspire potential resistances.

I suppose I could in theory be convinced to support a military intervention in the case of the Uyghur massacre. That comes with a lot of caveats though. It would have to be a mission to aid a self-determined people who need help. To go in unbeckoned is tantamount to imperialism. Additionally, said peoples would need to support even remotely progressive ideals. In every occasion after Korea , it's been in "our" (read: the corporations' and US government's power apparatus including the CIA and FBI) best interests to support right wing rebels and uprisings over more egalitarian minded ones- should the latter even exist. So that's not happening. But then, there would also have to be strict guidelines to prevent civilian causalities from our own attacks or those of our allies. And THAT is something the US has repeatedly refused to do even during the Korean War.

In other words, in practice, there'd be no way an intervention could actually work without making us as culpable of war crimes and violations of human rights as the CPC. Perhaps not as bad. But still far beyond acceptable conduct.

In that case, though, as an alternative I could suggest offering asylum to those who wish to escape... but to offer such people a happy, safe life when so many in the Anglosphere would wish them harm would be a cruel ruse, and an uphill battle to remove elements who would protest such an offer. Again, it turns to us to improve our own countries first.

In summary: absolutely, spread the word about China's atrocities. But there's not much at all that we can do without just causing more harm or doing the equivalent of flipping someone the bird outside of that and, again, improving our own countries to show a way forward/give an actual good asylum.
The problem with invading China isn’t even about imperialism or regime change. The problem with invading China is about invading China. China isn’t Iraq circa 2003.
 

Tbro777

Member
Nov 24, 2017
77
The only thing i could see working would be for all companies to pull manufacturing out of china, then the rest of the world would need to place embargoes on china basically treat them how we treat north korea. It would have to be a slow process, I don't think it would be feasible for all companies to get out quickly. Only thing is all of the big corporations have to want to do this first, I don't think they would let it happen
 

cjbenny

Member
Oct 29, 2017
48
It's sad and demoralizing to say but I don't believe that much can be done at the moment. China makes up such an enormous chunk of global trade that it's hard to even envision it undergoing a massive economic collapse without it triggering a global recession/depression. The rise of nationalism amongst the Chinese populace, Xi Jinping's consolidation of power, his desire to make China the global hegemony whilst also reviving China's old imperialist roots via things like The Belt and Road Initiative and the tenets Chinese Dream (中国梦), I don't see many scenarios where a revolution would even begin.
 

dapperbandit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
620
It's a market of 1 billion people, it's difficult to turn your back on that. I find it hilarious in a deeply cynical way that all these companies that have been so "woke" lately will make all these statements about their values etc but cave in utterly if someone risks offending China - you know the totalitarian regime committing literal genocide right now. It's all about money.


It actually takes an irrational person to defy them. If there's one thing I could say Trump is right about its his attitude towards China. I think whatever happens in 2020 we need to keep tariffs. Reconfigure them perhaps, but I'm sure the CCP would love nothing more than for a democrat to take office and end the trade war
 

cjbenny

Member
Oct 29, 2017
48
Great book has been written on this: https://www.amazon.com/Destined-War-America-Escape-Thucydidess-ebook/dp/B01IAS9FZY

Thesis is that the majority of the time when a dominating power (the US in this case) a faces a rising nation (China), an eventual war (cold or hot) is the likely outcome. Author doesn't say that war will happen for sure and he goes in-depth in many ways we could avoid a war.
Really great read for those interested in US-China relations. My classmate quoted a passage from it on a presentation and I saved it because it's a good distillation of what happens every time a great power is threatened by an upcoming one.

“As Thucydides saw it, Athens’s position was understandable. As its clout grew, so too did its self-confidence, its consciousness of past injustices, its sensitivity to instances of disrespect, and its insistence that previous arrangements be revised to reflect new realities of power. It was also natural, Thucydides explained, that Sparta interpreted the Athenian posture as unreasonable, ungrateful, and threatening to the system it had established—and within which Athens had flourished.”
 

Aniki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,247
It's hard because unlike in the cold war we are way more interconnected and dependent on each other. Here in Germany our export sector profits heavily from China and most stuff we buy is from there, so a complete boycott is unachievable. Still i think we can at least put pressure on our own companies not to buckle to the most awful of chinese demands, because China also depends on us. We have to make more use of that fact.

We should also pressure our representatives to take more defiant actions like inviting the Dalai Lama and other persons China doesn't want to see get more recognition, to visit our heads of state.

I mean, there are many countries who have problems with China and if we would band more together on this issue we would have a much greater chance to put pressure on the chinese government.
 

aisback

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,769
I fear that nothing will stop it unless power changes or if the protests actually work.

I’m going to try to buy stuff that isn’t made in China.
 

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,103
Earth
I fear that nothing will stop it unless power changes or if the protests actually work.

I’m going to try to buy stuff that isn’t made in China.
You do know that the protest in Hong Kong, that the actual people protesting aren't demanding a seperate Hong Kong country like Taiwan?
And it was never about that, there was always 5 demand, and it was the CCP that changed it into a independence movement?
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,831
Without the world economy going into shambles, causing mass histeria worldwide and potentially global chaos? Nothing.
 

Shugga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
Nothing can be done, you can only hope their citizens start giving a fuck and overthrow the dictatorship.
Good luck with that one.
 

Hodgy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,612
UK
This is a problem created by unfettered capitalism. when you chase profits at all costs of course you are going to become highly reliant on the country that can do loads of manufacturing for cheap.