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So China, what can be done?

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,961
Specifically re blizzard you can give a reason for why you are cancelling a subscription or deleting your account. That's a way you can make your voice heard where it directly hurts the company
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
535
Like what would even be the point of a leader of any country going inside a foreign country and voicing support for a movement there giving the host state a very strong reason to smear that movement as a foreign insurgency and squash it knowing full well that that country wouldn't militarily interfere?

If a foreign leader wants to stir up trouble in another country they best be prepared to back it up otherwise they should stay home.
 
OP
OP
Cosmo Kramer

Cosmo Kramer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
769
México
I think the biggest problem right now is no one calling out their bullshit. Have there been any contries even mentioning some of the crimes being commited by the CCP every day? Most governments are welcoming their investments with open arms, specially undeveloped ones. I know here in Mexico they knock on our door and promise to build a manifacturing facility of some sort, they invest millions, build the thing and then bring thousands of Chinese to fill most of the positions, i have to admit their strategy is fucking brilliant
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,698
What would be the possibility of an American president to go to Hong Kong and speak in front of the crowds there and voice their support?

I know obviously Trump wouldn't do this, but how would you go about doing it? Since it's technically part of China, would the White House need to ask the CCP for allowance to go there?
I don’t see how that would help. Turning Hong Kong into outright geopolitical proxy war would just get China more entrenched and the actual demands of the protestors overlooked.
 

Faenix1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,184
Canada
I’m buying less Chinese stuff. Also good for my wallet that I’m not buying junk from aliexpress anymore lol. And good for the environment as less shipping transport is needed. But really everyone needs to do it to have any effect on China

and that’s not gonna happen
Cause its basically impossible, and I dont buy many unnecessary things as it is lol
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,825
Countries band together and collectively sanction China.

Trump kinda fucked that up by trying to sanction everyone which just pissed everyone off.
 
Oct 30, 2017
251
Even if tech companies are able to move their production out of China, what happens if China then cuts off their supply of rare earth minerals? China produces more than the next 9 largest countries combined.

Regarding this, there was this article recently:


Rare earth elements aren’t the secret weapon China thinks they are

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/23/18637071/rare-earth-china-production-america-demand-trade-war-tariffs
 

TheMan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,169
There’s nothing of import that you can do as an individual. The Chinese market is too enticing for companies to just ignore, even if it means turning a blind eye to atrocities. Why? Cause they want money (companies literally exist for that sole reason) and plus, every country does dirty shit anyway. So you can boycott and protest and take a stand based on your own personal beliefs if it makes you feel better, and that’s fine. Just know that it won’t change shit. At least not the big picture.
 

Bigwombat

Member
Nov 30, 2018
684
Keep getting educated on the issues. Spread the word. Tell companies you have enjoyed in the past, nba and blizzard, you don't support their actions. Delete your account or don't go to games. Call in to radio shows. Support amnesty international, southern law poverty center, etc....

These corporations absolutely listen to American and European customers. It does seem irrsurmountable to fight against Chinese oppression but guess what everyone has a fucking voice now and revolutions have never been easier. Don't be so negative about it. Wasn't Greta thurberg sitting on a corner scraping dog shit off her shoes a year ago and now she's got CEOs shook. Nadia Murad won a Nobel prize for humanitarian work she did in Iraq and mother fuckers are out to get her. Use your voice and your wallet.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,818
New York
There’s nothing of import that you can do as an individual. The Chinese market is too enticing for companies to just ignore, even if it means turning a blind eye to atrocities. Why? Cause they want money (companies literally exist for that sole reason) and plus, every country does dirty shit anyway. So you can boycott and protest and take a stand based on your own personal beliefs if it makes you feel better, and that’s fine. Just know that it won’t change shit. At least not the big picture.
Sounds like some shit the man would say.
 

Youngfossil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,501
Honestly, ignore them. Stop doing business over there and let them eat themselves (metaphorically speaking, but it would probably happen literally too)
 

Somnid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
It's like asking how to stop climate change. It's a slow process that first requires recognizing the situation (we're pretty much here). Using capitalism to have companies self-censor is a relatively new concept, people need to learn it. Next would be actually implementing changes. We need to change culturally so that now we can identify the problem and the media has interest in reporting the problem we can put pressure on those who perpetuate the problem. The Streisand Effect is what China isn't expecting, they want silence and bringing it to the fore-front helps make sure they cannot do that. With enough cultural change you'll get politicians and corporate leaders who will start rejecting Chinese influence on principal. Over time, if China's influence is contained they will have to play a different game and maybe then that game will be less authoritarian than it is now.

But short-term boycotts can work, anything that makes the press see a story with juicy hits gets it attention. Sadly, one of the better options is to support the US trade war. It's for all the wrong reasons, but the net effect is that it does make companies look outside of China. If more infrastructure for manufacturing is built up outside it makes it easier for others to pull out and makes profit vs ethics decisions a little more equal ground. Right now their monopolization of manufacturing creates near existential problems for companies that rely on it.
 

Ghostie

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 5, 2019
40
There's a reason why resource rich countries and continents are poor, imagine them being world superpowers?

Anyway, your question is pretty easy to answer. Get a good enough reason to boycott and countries will enforce it quickly.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,993
this thread is eerily fascistic

“hey let’s ban Chinese people from the US and trigger a global depression whilst ignoring all the other countries that also commit human right violations”
 

LuigiMario

Member
Oct 28, 2017
743
Not much that can be done immediately, but I'm definitely going to try avoid buying
Cause its basically impossible, and I dont buy many unnecessary things as it is lol
Alternative to avoiding buying things altogether is to buy second hand whenever possible. It's a lot more realistic too than just not buying things altogether.
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,698
Honestly, ignore them. Stop doing business over there and let them eat themselves (metaphorically speaking, but it would probably happen literally too)
I do think you have to be more specific in the responses. e.g. the specifics of the situation with the Uyghurs and the actual demands made by the HK protestors. The 'fuck China' mentality doesn't really help in the sense it feels like more of a response to China daring to tell American companies what to do rather than the actual problems in the likes of Xinjiang and Hong Kong. Companies are probably taking measures to mitigate their reliance on China, but it'll take some time, but at the same time China is probably moving to become more self sufficient as well for technology and economy where boycotts and sanctions are going to be less and less effective.
 

Gamechanger87

Member
Oct 25, 2017
598
Even if tech companies are able to move their production out of China, what happens if China then cuts off their supply of rare earth minerals? China produces more than the next 9 largest countries combined.

China funded its rare earth mines and completely ignored any environmental regulations trying to corner the rare earth market. As the mines were state funded they essentially dumped the materials out there to drive international competition out of the market and other mines stopped operating. The CCP viewed this as their ace in the hole which is why they did it in the first place.

In the past 12 months these other mines have started re-opening to prepare for this eventuality as it has driven prices back up. China banning exports of rare earths are becoming less of a risk as these mines re-open and all it will do is make prices increase even more leading to more mines opening. China's stranglehold on the market is entirely reliant on them not shutting off supply. Rare earths are not that rare, just expensive and messy to mine.
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,112
China funded its rare earth mines and completely ignored any environmental regulations trying to corner the rare earth market. As the mines were state funded they essentially dumped the materials out there to drive international competition out of the market and other mines stopped operating. The CCP viewed this as their ace in the hole which is why they did it in the first place.

In the past 12 months these other mines have started re-opening to prepare for this eventuality as it has driven prices back up. China banning exports of rare earths are becoming less of a risk as these mines re-open and all it will do is make prices increase even more leading to more mines opening. China's stranglehold on the market is entirely reliant on them not shutting off supply. Rare earths are not that rare, just expensive and messy to mine.
thanks, yeah I read the verge article and it seems like mining these metals can create alot of radioactive waste and is costly. But I guess if the alternative is no rare earth metals, countries will do mine their own where they can
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
this thread is eerily fascistic

“hey let’s ban Chinese people from the US and trigger a global depression whilst ignoring all the other countries that also commit human right violations”
I seriously don't get it.
Why run the cold war playbook again?
That was an awful policy, and people back then also said "oh no the poor people of the USSR who are suffering terrible human rights abuses", but that shit did very little to help them, and managed to hurt a whole lot of people.

And people trust Trump to fucking manage that conflict?

Let's even say the US is willing to actually get China into a recession, what good will come out of that?
It will be awful worldwide for a lot of people and for what?
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,787
this thread is eerily fascistic

“hey let’s ban Chinese people from the US and trigger a global depression whilst ignoring all the other countries that also commit human right violations”
Yes that's been the sentiment lately on here regarding China. The problem is there is no 'good' solution so people are falling back on more fascistic solutions because they are easy.
 

Jroc

Member
Jun 9, 2018
957
It's too late for the United States to conduct any sort of effective unilateral economic action. The time to act was ten years ago when China was still getting off of the ground. The Trans-Pacific Partnership was the last hope for any sort of long-term economic "containment" but people were overly keen to tare that up. Banning all Chinese imports is about the only thing that could seriously rock the boat.

Short of war, all the US can do at this point is covert stuff like getting its Middle Eastern allies to cut off China's oil supply. They could threaten to sign a defence agreement with Taiwan or station American troops there, but that might trigger a war anyway.

Effective economic pressure would require an international coalition.
 

kitress

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
I do think you have to be more specific in the responses. e.g. the specifics of the situation with the Uyghurs and the actual demands made by the HK protestors. The 'fuck China' mentality doesn't really help in the sense it feels like more of a response to China daring to tell American companies what to do rather than the actual problems in the likes of Xinjiang and Hong Kong. Companies are probably taking measures to mitigate their reliance on China, but it'll take some time, but at the same time China is probably moving to become more self sufficient as well for technology and economy where boycotts and sanctions are going to be less and less effective.
I think you're mischaracterizing the situation. This isn't a response to China's innocuous pettiness for daring to tell American companies what to do. This is a wakeup call to many people that China's authoritarian practices are reaching the worldwide stage. China are actively censoring the world.
 

ethranes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
348
Edinburgh
It's not even a question, we know who that would end up hurting most: average Chinese people.

Linking this again for you so you can educate yourself in the realities of the trade war situation.
It is and will continue to be devastating for America while China continues to grow. The current trade war is the worst thing that the American leader has done to his country.
 

Prine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,915
It's not even a question, we know who that would end up hurting most: average Chinese people.
Wouldn't that turn people's attention towards the Chinese Government ? Because the Chinese public seem to apathetic to a genocide taking place within their borders right this minute. If sanctions causes mild inconvenience and difficulties so people start questioning why, then it seems like a effective form of action. It's outrageous to me how such blatant disregard for human life is acceptable if it means a comfortable life for the rest of the nation. In this case direct action and disruption to people's lives is needed as a wake up call towards the atrocities being committed, shine a spotlight on it for all to see.
 
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Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,993
I seriously don't get it.
Why run the cold war playbook again?
That was an awful policy, and people back then also said "oh no the poor people of the USSR who are suffering terrible human rights abuses", but that shit did very little to help them, and managed to hurt a whole lot of people.

And people trust Trump to fucking manage that conflict?

Let's even say the US is willing to actually get China into a recession, what good will come out of that?
It will be awful worldwide for a lot of people and for what?
Yes that's been the sentiment lately on here regarding China. The problem is there is no 'good' solution so people are falling back on more fascistic solutions because they are easy.
Americans and westerners are absolutely flailing on how to commit regime change to a country they can’t bomb, invade, or incite rebellion
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
Wouldn't that turn people's attention towards the Chinese Government ? Because the Chinese public seem to apathetic to a genocide taking place within their borders right this minute. If sanctions causes inconvenience and difficulties so people start questioning why, then it seems like a effective form of action.
Is your plan is to make regular Chinese people's lives as miserable as you can so they will organize toward a political goal you care about but is unwilling to really commit to in any serious way?
This shit doesn't work, it never work. Chinese people are not stupid, if you're gonna make their life miserable they're gonna blame you.
Also, you're gonna make a whole lot of people's life worse, even outside China, and I'm really not sure how it will make anyone's life better.

Again, the US tried that shit during the cold war and it was awful for everyone involved and we nearly blew up the world a bunch of times.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,787

Linking this again for you so you can educate yourself in the realities of the trade war situation.
It is and will continue to be devastating for America while China continues to grow. The current trade war is the worst thing that the American leader has done to his country.
No shit? I'm well aware the trade war has been devastating for many in the US. They aren't sanctions. Sanctions would be bad for the entire global community, but they would hurt Chinese people the most.
Wouldn't that turn people's attention towards the Chinese Government ? Because the Chinese public seem to apathetic to a genocide taking place within their borders right this minute. If sanctions causes inconvenience and difficulties so people start questioning why, then it seems like a effective form of action.
You are mistaking ignorance and fear for apathy. I'm sure some Chinese citizens are apathetic regarding the genocide of the Uighurs (mainly the people working for the government actually involved in the genocide) but most Chinese citizens either don't know it's happening or know and fear speaking out because they will quickly end up in the same situation. The government has such a tight hold on the populace that sanctions would likely not motivate an uprising, because China could easily suppress an uprising in the mainland. Hong Kong is different because it technically has a separate government, freedom of information, tons of foreign nationals, business interests, etc. so China can't quickly and decisively shut down dissent like theywould on the mainland.
 

SG-17

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,222
this thread is eerily fascistic

“hey let’s ban Chinese people from the US and trigger a global depression whilst ignoring all the other countries that also commit human right violations”
Who else is committing mass genocide, forcibly harvesting organs of minorities and dissenters, and is also a major economic power?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Also fascism a broad political ideology. Wanting a self-sufficient economy isn't fascist in itself.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,027
Who else is committing mass genocide, forcibly harvesting organs of minorities and dissenters, and is also a major economic power?

Anyone?

Anyone?
What are you even suggesting?
Sanctions?
And sanctions gonna help the poor people who are suffering in China how exactly?

You really think any of that shit is because the US really cares about Muslims in Central Asia?
Come on, you are rooting for a conflict, have you stopped for one second to think who is gonna manage that conflict?
I am willing to revisit this position if any point in time the US get a non crazy person in the white house, but you really gonna tell me life is gonna be better in China if Trump and Marco Rubio had more input about how to run things?
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
834
Is China on the verge of revolution?
Not even close. Most of the things that people in this thread are complaining about are broadly (and sometimes overwhelmingly) popular in China. In fact, the general populace would support harsher measures than the federal government has implemented.

No shit? I'm well aware the trade war has been devastating for many in the US. They aren't sanctions. Sanctions would be bad for the entire global community, but they would hurt Chinese people the most.

You are mistaking ignorance and fear for apathy. I'm sure some Chinese citizens are apathetic regarding the genocide of the Uighurs (mainly the people working for the government actually involved in the genocide) but most Chinese citizens either don't know it's happening or know and fear speaking out because they will quickly end up in the same situation. The government has such a tight hold on the populace that sanctions would likely not motivate an uprising, because China could easily suppress an uprising in the mainland. Hong Kong is different because it technically has a separate government, freedom of information, tons of foreign nationals, business interests, etc. so China can't quickly and decisively shut down dissent like theywould on the mainland.
An uprising is ludicrous because the Chinese people aren't apathetic; they're outright supportive of most of the government's actions. Suppressing the Uyghurs? Popular. South China Sea expansion? Popular. Attacking the NBA? Popular. Hong Kong protestors? Extremely unpopular. The people are firmly on the side of the CCP and any aggressive foreign moves against the government are only going to entrench that support.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,993
Who else is committing mass genocide, forcibly harvesting organs of minorities and dissenters, and is also a major economic power?

Anyone?

Anyone?
You’re going to find a hard time convincing anyone outside the Global North that ethnic cleansing is uniquely and supremely bad when China does it, when the US govt just gave Turkey the green light to get rid of the Kurds in Syria. Especially if you’re trying to justify or advocate a global geopolitical response to China
 

Jroc

Member
Jun 9, 2018
957
After thinking about it, the true Machiavellian thing for the United States to do would be to go after China's energy security.

For those who don't know, China is severely insecure when it comes to energy (i.e. oil). About 1/3 of their oil comes from the Middle East, with the rest coming from Russia, Central America and parts of Africa. There are about a million different scenarios where the Middle East blows up and China can't get enough oil to drive its economy (Saudi Arabia and Iran go to war, CIA-backed Terror Group X blows up a bunch of refineries, USA straight up tells its buddies to stop selling them oil). Part of the reason China is trying to build up its navy and snatch the South China Sea is to secure their flow of oil.

The US doesn't need the Middle East for oil anymore. The US (and Canada) have enough domestic oil sources to keep themselves running in the event of an international crisis. The entire reason the US is involved in that region is for future scenarios like this. They can't attack China, but they can cut off its lifeblood.

Then again, this is the reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. There is only so much you can do to a country before war is on the table.

Even if tech companies are able to move their production out of China, what happens if China then cuts off their supply of rare earth minerals? China produces more than the next 9 largest countries combined.

Rare earth metals are a bit like oil sources in that a lot of countries have them, it's just that some places are cheaper/more developed than others.


If a new Cold War ever happened, then it would be possible for alternate sources to be exploited. It's just incredibly expensive and not worth it when there's a cheap source set up in China with all the factories next door. North America is actually in a prime position to be entirely self-sufficient if it ever had to be. The vast fresh water sources and (relatively) low population gives it a huge advantage over South East Asia in the long-term.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,787
Not even close. Most of the things that people in this thread are complaining about are broadly (and sometimes overwhelmingly) popular in China. In fact, the general populace would support harsher measures than the federal government has implemented.


An uprising is ludicrous because the Chinese people aren't apathetic; they're outright supportive of most of the government's actions. Suppressing the Uyghurs? Popular. South China Sea expansion? Popular. Attacking the NBA? Popular. Hong Kong protestors? Extremely unpopular. The people are firmly on the side of the CCP and any aggressive foreign moves against the government are only going to entrench that support.
All of their information is funneled through the lens of the CCP, so the average person doesn't have accurate information on what the government is doing, just what the government is telling yhem they are doing. Also dissent is not allowed so obviously anything the government does is going to be popular, there is no alternative. I mean yes plenty of Chinese are nationalistic and pro-government but the alternative is a prison camp and complete societal ostracization.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
834
After thinking about it, the true Machiavellian thing for the United States to do would be to go after China's energy security.

For those who don't know, China is severely insecure when it comes to energy (i.e. oil). About 1/3 of their oil comes from the Middle East, with the rest coming from Russia, Central America and parts of Africa. There are about a million different scenarios where the Middle East blows up and China can't get enough oil to drive its economy (Saudi Arabia and Iran go to war, CIA-backed Terror Group X blows up a bunch of refineries, USA straight up tells its buddies to stop selling them oil). Part of the reason China is trying to build up its navy and snatch the South China Sea is to secure their flow of oil.

The US doesn't need the Middle East for oil anymore. The US (and Canada) have enough domestic oil sources to keep themselves running in the event of an international crisis. The entire reason the US is involved in that region is for future scenarios like this. They can't attack China, but they can cut off its lifeblood.

Then again, this is the reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. There is only so much you can do to a country before war is on the table.
This is a terrible idea because it would start a war.

All of their information is funneled through the lens of the CCP, so the average person doesn't have accurate information on what the government is doing, just what the government is telling yhem they are doing. Also dissent is not allowed so obviously anything the government does is going to be popular, there is no alternative. I mean yes plenty of Chinese are nationalistic and pro-government but the alternative is a prison camp and complete societal ostracization.
Which of these criticized activities do you think would be unpopular in China if dissent was allowed?
 

Z-Beat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,811
Cheaper methods of production that will allow companies to move their production facilities out of China without having to compensate for production costs by raising prices.
 

Prine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,915
Is your plan is to make regular Chinese people's lives as miserable as you can so they will organize toward a political goal you care about but is unwilling to really commit to in any serious way?
This shit doesn't work, it never work. Chinese people are not stupid, if you're gonna make their life miserable they're gonna blame you.
Also, you're gonna make a whole lot of people's life worse, even outside China, and I'm really not sure how it will make anyone's life better.

Again, the US tried that shit during the cold war and it was awful for everyone involved and we nearly blew up the world a bunch of times.
The right to live without fear of repercussions simply because of your ethnicity isn't a political goal, how tone-deaf could your reply be. Because this is a state sponsored genocide, not some militia or organisation, that is supremely more important then the comfort of those who knowingly turn their head towards this injustice, over a million in camps, I'm all for making things difficult for the government of China, and I hope people of China start raising this issue rather then defending it.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,787
This is a terrible idea because it would start a war.


Which of these criticized activities do you think would be unpopular in China if dissent was allowed?
I honestly have no idea, and you don't either. It's impossible to say because the squashing of dissent is inextricable from the censorship of information, the disappearing of political dissidents, the mass surveillance and social credit system. There is no "China that does all the authoritarian oppressive regime shit except allows for dissent". The rhetorical question you've asked is meaningless.
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,862
Countries band together and collectively sanction China.

Trump kinda fucked that up by trying to sanction everyone which just pissed everyone off.
What if I told you half the world really likes China and their global influence. Good luck finding anyone outside the US, Canada and Australia that puts any real effort in sanctioning China at all.