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So China, what can be done?

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,128
There will inevitably be a point where China commits an atrocity that will go viral and will be impossible to ignore. They will only escalate the censorship and atrocities because they have this idea that no one will do anything. They will overreach and then it will be a chain reaction of condemnation. That is how I see things playing out. After that who knows. I just don't have much confidence in the sustainability of CCP rule.
 

Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,172
The best we can really do is support activists and urge our lawmakers to take more reasonable(i.e. not killing our economy) action against them.
 

Baji Boxer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,596
As a nation (governmentally), even if there was a strong will to attack the problem, not much can be done without first taking care of our own human rights issues. Our increased support of other authoritarian regimes, even when they attack/kill our own, doesn't bode well for any response.

Individually, I suppose it's keeping awareness going and continuing to pressure lawmakers and media. That goes for Europeans too.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
This is finely worded sentence which evades my questions on where you stand on my last post. It's vague enough that it gives the impression it's answering what I wrote and it reads like its coming from a welcoming place when all it does is softly ignore the biggest questions about where you stand on this crucial topic.

These are simple, direct questions and your silence around them speaks volumes.

Except we've had Chinese posters do that and as far as I know you're not in China or Chinese. If that were true of your position why post in these threads? Why take that risk unless your intention is not to have a genuine conversation but to advocate for the Chinese government?

People haven't been vague about anything, sanctions are popular for instance. Some have mentioned outright war, but that was shut down for obvious reasons. I know you dislike sanctions but your defence to use the Chinese populace as a shield from government criticism isn't hard to see through. This has grown in a position, at least on ERA, that something must be done to punish the Chinese goverment for being a tyranny and for good reasons.





So first of all, if there is some sort of specific condemnation phrasing that will make you stop implying that I'm cool with genocide or whatever let me know and I would sign it in triplicate.
I'm not sure why you're acting like I have some hidden agenda so I'll repeat myself as clear as possible -

I think there is no reason for the US to take such aggressive stance against China, I think China is not trying to harm the US, and I don't know what specifically you are suggesting to do with China, but things like sanctions are only gonna hurt the Chinese people. And if you're upset that they don't hate their life enough to regime change their government for you, then honestly, you gonna need to be okay with that, because making them poorer is not gonna work, and you most certainly should not pretend that you're doing it to help Chinese people.

This is hypocritical, given the current state of the Chinese government's record on human rights. Of course many Americans care about Muslims suffering, this is deeply ironic when your focus switched to China it becomes a non-issue and that all we need to do is make the Chinese government happy. Look at my links above, why are you so comfy supporting China in this matter? These are Chinese citizens, what Trump and Bush's administrations did does note case that. They are governments. They are not above scrutiny and absolutely no-one is making a defence of the current government that any countries shouldn't do something to punish the US because it'll hurt the country's citizens. Because that's not a good argument, regardless of who the government is. It's a tactic to shut down discussion, not have an honest conversation about what to do about bad governments.

No, but sometimes conflict is unavoidable. Say a cold war does break out between these two nations, who would you support?
You can't keep ignoring who is currently running the US, I'm sorry.
Again, let's say whatever you think the west should do in regards to China is done, and let's see the west "win", and China bend the knee and say "the pain is too much, we say uncle, we'll do whatever you want". They're not gonna go to the "many Americans who care about Muslim suffering", they're gonna go to the White House, and you can't keep pretending that the lives of Muslims anywhere are gonna be better with more input from Trump and his administration.
Much like the poor suffering Iraqi in the torture chamber and the rape palaces weren't helped by Bush.
America shouts about human rights every time it talks with or about China, but it doesn't really have any demands from China about that. You are supporting something that has goals that are not really aligned with what you claim you care about. You really don't notice how the people who hates diplomacy always shout about human rights to justify their hawkish stance?

If this is about America having an economic anxiety that China gonna have higher GDP then them, then let's talk about that.
 
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Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
Their build-up in the South China Sea. They're encroaching and gradually taking control over other countries' maritime-territories. Claiming all that water as "China" is some first class bullshit. Of course, they're not being all clumsy bull in a ______ shop about it: taking it by overt military action. The build-up is gradual, they're taking control piece by piece, inch by inch. Asserting their ownership over areas they have no proper claim to, but doing so at a level where it won't provoke hotter retaliation.

They weren't always subtle like that. When Communist China was barely a few years old, they decided to try take over the Korean peninsula with an invasion of military forces. They invaded Korea in all but name. But for the People's Republic of China, there would be no North Korea. But for the PRC, even today, there would be no North Korea. Today and since its inception, North Korea is the PRC's proxy state.

I guess the PRC learned from all that. Wars are so messy and inconvenient. The contemporary tack seems to be to try to lull the other into a sense of complacency. We'll just tuck ourselves into that corner over there, that you seemed to have misunderstood as being part of your territory. Don't mind us. Oops, you don't like it? That's "technically Chinese any way" - which is how I've seen people afflicted with undue Chinese nationalism (even on resetera) describe parts of Asia or cultural aspects of Asia they have no actual claim to.

China could be great. Truly great. The predecessors to the PRC were a panoply of gorgeous and fascinating civilizations and dynasties. They already have so much territory. So much land and water mass. They claim a fifth of humanity as Han Chinese already. All that rich, complex cultural history. Can they not just be secure in that? Stop intruding on the maritime territories of the Phillippines, Vietnam, and other ASEAN countries. Oh, and within their current borders, could they stop torturing and trying to annihilate ethnic minorities? Genocide is a high barrier to getting that influence, respect and soft power that they desperately crave from the rest of the world.

edited to add "PRC"
You know, "China watchers" (AKA people who really want to start another cold war with China) has been saying China gonna "take over" the south China sea and "bully" the weaker countries, or straight up start a naval war with them for well over a decade.
So far, it hasn't happen, and I donno why people act disappointed. If China invade Vietnam the US gonna have to think about what it's doing, but I don't think you get to act like as though it has already happened.
This is a border dispute, no country agree with each other there (seriously, China can withdraw all its claims and still no country will accept all other country's claim), and I don't know why you think that the situation will be improved if the US got to have a say in how the borders should be drawn there.
Again, I am willing to revisit that decision if the US ever gets a sane leadership, but you can't keep acting like there is some benevolent and diplomatic deep state who is gonna represent the interest of Freedom and Democracy if you get your way and the US gets involved in that shit.

If you're still upset about the Korean war I think you need to get over it, China mostly got over the shit the US did to it back then.
Seriously, which of its neighbors do you think China want to invade and why?
China is not trying to "spread communism" or whatever.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,002
You know, "China watchers" (AKA people who really want to start another cold war with China) has been saying China gonna "take over" the south China sea and "bully" the weaker countries, or straight up start a naval war with them for well over a decade.
So far, it hasn't happen, and I donno why people act disappointed. If China invade Vietnam the US gonna have to think about what it's doing, but I don't think you get to act like as though it has already happened.
This is a border dispute, no country agree with each other there (seriously, China can withdraw all its claims and still no country will accept all other country's claim), and I don't know why you think that the situation will be improved if the US got to have a say in how the borders should be drawn there.
Again, I am willing to revisit that decision if the US ever gets a sane leadership, but you can't keep acting like there is some benevolent and diplomatic deep state who is gonna represent the interest of Freedom and Democracy if you get your way and the US gets involved in that shit.
I never once said the U.S. should get involved. It's a futile, powerless plea/wish on my part that the PRC be decent. Respect the territory of its neighbors. Stop with the inhumane torture and planned annihilation of its ethnic minorities. Act from a place of true strength and be decent. That's how the PRC would win hearts and minds all over the globe.

It's only a dispute because China is fucking with its neighbors. These "disputed" areas are long-standing recognized maritime territories of nations other than China or international waters. There's no controversy, except China illegally intruding and trying to claim these areas as their own.

If you're still upset about the Korean war I think you need to get over it, China mostly got over the shit the US did to it back then.
Seriously, which of its neighbors do you think China want to invade and why?
China is not trying to "spread communism" or whatever.
I wonder how many years will pass, before you lecture someone about the Chinese genocide of Uighurs? "If you're still upset about it [...] you need to get over it."

In any case, please don't try to paint my bringing up North Korea as an "upset" over that war.

You're the one who asked:

For real, which of their neighbors do you think they want to take over and be responsible for?
...as if North Korea doesn't currently exist because China makes it exist. North Korea would promptly disintegrate if China relinquished "responsibility" for its continued existence. There's your responsibility right there.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
I never once said the U.S. should get involved. It's a futile, powerless plea/wish on my part that the PRC be decent. Respect the territory of its neighbors. Stop with the inhumane torture and planned annihilation of its ethnic minorities. Act from a place of true strength and be decent. That's how the PRC would win hearts and minds all over the globe.

It's only a dispute because China is fucking with its neighbors. These "disputed" areas are long-standing recognized maritime territories of nations other than China or international waters. There's no controversy, except China illegally intruding and trying to claim these areas as their own.
Then what are you advocating?
This thread is titled "what can be done", so what do you think should be done there besides saying "China bad"?

You are also wrong about the facts, Vietnam's claim overlaps with Brunei's, Malaysia and the Philippines, but that's almost besides the point.

I wonder how many years will pass, before you lecture someone about the Chinese genocide of Uighurs? "If you're still upset about it [...] you need to get over it."

In any case, please don't try to paint my bringing up North Korea as an "upset" over that war.

You're the one who asked:
You are offering nothing to the Uighurs, nothing, you can't keeping acting like your harsh language is helping them.
If the west manage to wreck the Chinese economy, the lives of the people in Xinjiang are not gonna get better, much like the lives of the people in Iraq didn't get better when the US killed their economy.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,002
Then what are you advocating?
This thread is titled "what can be done", so what do you think should be done there besides saying "China bad"?

You are also wrong about the facts, Vietnam's claim overlaps with Brunei's, Malaysia and the Philippines, but that's almost besides the point.

You are offering nothing to the Uighurs, nothing, you can't keeping acting like your harsh language is helping them.
If the west manage to wreck the Chinese economy, the lives of the people in Xinjiang are not gonna get better, much like the lives of the people in Iraq didn't get better when they US killed their economy.
Did I not say that my wish was powerless and futile? Let me check. Yes, yes I did.

I guess appealing to the PRC's sense of decency and humanity is too impossible a dream. Depressing that even, from your perspective, the PRC turning away from those depths of depravity because it's the fucking non-evil thing to do is too much of an ask.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
625
California
I think for Americans right now the best we can do is continue to work on our own government by getting out the bad apples and voting to put in place people better suited for the positions. Then we can proceed to see what the best approach is for handling the Chineese government.

For now though, I think we should just stand by the protestors in HK, consider Taiwan free, call out the atrocities as they come, make sure USA based companies don't fall in line with anti free speech ideals, etc.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
Did I not say that my wish was powerless and futile? Let me check. Yes, yes I did.

I guess appealing to the PRC's sense of decency and humanity is too impossible a dream. Depressing that even, from your perspective, the PRC turning away from those depths of depravity because it's the fucking non-evil thing to do is too much of an ask.
Why do you assume that you can't deal with China?
Yeah, you're not gonna regime change China, but that's not the only way you can deal with countries.
You don't need to appeal to China, but you can't try to appeal for your leaders to try and engage with it in a more productive way then this trade war/cold war shit, because that's clearly doesn't work.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
I think for Americans right now the best we can do is continue to work on our own government by getting out the bad apples and voting to put in place people better suited for the positions. Then we can proceed to see what the best approach is for handling the Chineese government.

For now though, I think we should just stand by the protestors in HK, consider Taiwan free, call out the atrocities as they come, make sure USA based companies don't fall in line with anti free speech ideals, etc.
I agree, but I think we need to be careful with just saying stuff like "stand with HK" without fleshing out the details, because again, we can imagine it must lead to some productive engagement, but in reality, this is often what happens -

And don't tell me that's a good thing.

And to be clear, I think there are productive ways that the west can and should support the HK protests, but if all we do is shout "evil empire" and "new nazis", it often leads to people with bad intentions taking advantage of that moral outrage to promote a shitty, unrelated agenda.
 

kitress

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
You know, "China watchers" (AKA people who really want to start another cold war with China) has been saying China gonna "take over" the south China sea and "bully" the weaker countries, or straight up start a naval war with them for well over a decade.
So far, it hasn't happen, and I donno why people act disappointed. If China invade Vietnam the US gonna have to think about what it's doing, but I don't think you get to act like as though it has already happened.
What do you mean "so far it hasn't happened." China has been slowly invading its neighbors in the last decade. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Every year they encroach a few kilometers. Ask the Vietnamese, they'll tell you all about it. The most flagrant case is the nine dashed lines in the Southeastern sea they got ESPN to advertise it for them. If they outright invade Vietnam or Korea, it would be like just the Crimea situation. But hey so far it hasn't come to that point, so let's let them build military bases on disputed territories, encroach on its neighbors' territories and punish anyone dares to speak out against it. Yup, let the sickness spread completely instead of stopping it at the symptomatic stage. Brilliant idea.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
What do you mean "so far it hasn't happened." China has been slowly invading its neighbors in the last decade. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Every year they encroach a few kilometers. Ask the Vietnamese, they'll tell you all about it. The most flagrant case is the nine dashed lines in the Southeastern sea they got ESPN to advertise it for them. If they outright invade Vietnam or Korea, it would be like just the Crimea situation. But hey so far it hasn't come to that point, so let's let them build military bases on disputed territories, encroach on its neighbors' territories and punish anyone dares to speak out against it. Yup, let the sickness spread completely instead of stopping it at the symptomatic stage. Brilliant idea.
They haven't invaded Vietnam, I think you got them mixed with the US, they haven't invaded any of their neighbors really. They have some border disputes with their neighbors, sometime it has escalated to fighting, and people died, but for an expansionist state, they still strangely sit withing their UN recognized borders.
I guess the leased some land from Tajikistan, it that what you're talking about?

I think it's a bit hard to argue that the Korean war was an expansionist war of Chinese aggression, it's not like it expended the borders of China.

p.s.
I think talking about China in terms of "spreading sickness" is a return to the worst tendencies of the cold war, seriously, you can express geopolitical concerns without using such language. China is not the USSR, they're not trying to export their form of government,
 

DukeBlueBall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,862
Seattle, WA
Becareful of what you wish for. Every time China topples their ruling government there has been bloodshed resulting in millions of death, whether immediate or during the power consolidation phase.

There is also no guarantee that the resulting government would be better than the CCP. Just look at Russia vs late year USSR.

What if Han Chauvinists gain country of the country? I had a first hand interaction with a 20 something year old man in China who is unabashedly Hitler like in his views about minorities and Han superiority. Worst is that this viewpoint was shared with a lot of his friends.

Chikor said a lot of things already that I would have said.

One point I like to add is that the CCP is reasonable to engagement.

The USA has no problem supporting 500 million people right now. We can work with the CCP to take a few million Urghyrs, Tibetans, HKers that they don't want. It's the most bloodless and humane solution.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
The USA has no problem supporting 500 million people right now. We can work with the CCP to take a few million Urghyrs, Tibetans, HKers that they don't want. It's the most bloodless and humane solution.
The US doesn't need to even work with China for that, the US could just give these people visas.
But the US still haven't removed from the terror watch list all the Uighurs groups they added after 9/11 (which I'm pretty sure were all put there with really poor vetting by some pentagon intern that googled "angry Muslims") so I wouldn't hold my breath.

They will use those people as a justification for sanctions though or god forbid an actual military campaign.
 

PurpleCopper

Member
Oct 5, 2019
37
Only way I see of putting the hurt on China is just trade wars a slow decoupling of the economies. Make the Chinese GDP fall faster than the American GDP and hope that they cave in first. Xi's always touting a 6% GDP as his right to rule, but if it falls below 6% or god forbid 5% then there will be SERIOUS grumblings from the Chinese people and more importantly the Chinese government. Either that or wait until China implodes in a couple of decades due to shrinking birthrates.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
The US would get routed in the first year of any military conflict against China unless the conflict is more 500 miles offshore. It'll take Russia + SK + Japan + Vietnam + US coordinated campaign to make a ground invasion work.
Strong disagree. The US can gain air dominance against any country in a couple of days and then turn it into rubble from the air. The US obviously cannot "win the occupation", and of course we need to consider nukes, buy there is no reason to believe China, or any country for that matter, stand any chance against America in a conventional conflict.
The US has the strongest, biggest, most technological advenced armed force in the world, and the last couple of decades of endless wars also made it the most experienced.
The Pentagon scream about China catching up for more budgets and of course Chinese generals like to talk big game, but I see no reason to believe this is true.
 

DukeBlueBall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,862
Seattle, WA
Only way I see of putting the hurt on China is just trade wars a slow decoupling of the economies. Make the Chinese GDP fall faster than the American GDP and hope that they cave in first. Xi's always touting a 6% GDP as his right to rule, but if it falls below 6% or god forbid 5% then there will be SERIOUS grumblings from the Chinese people and more importantly the Chinese government. Either that or wait until China implodes in a couple of decades due to shrinking birthrates.
American GDP growth is 2%.
Even 5% for China sustained over decades would be amazing. US's top growth periods were 4%.

The Great Leap forward, the Cultural Revolution, and Tiananmen sanctions were some of the most disastrous economic periods during the CCP's rule and they managed to not lose grip on power.

I think all this China implosion / collapse theories have time and time being dispelled again.
We have to accept an reality of a competing power / bigger power that's has values that don't align with the US's. The only solution for the US is to grow their population to 600 million people via immigration so that USA can remain the hegemon in world economy.
 

DukeBlueBall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,862
Seattle, WA
Strong disagree. The US can gain air dominance against any country in a couple of days and then turn it into rubble from the air. The US obviously cannot "win the occupation", and of course we need to consider nukes, buy there is no reason to believe China, or any country for that matter, stand any chance against America in a conventional conflict.
The US has the strongest, biggest, most technological advenced armed force in the world, and the last couple of decades of endless wars also made it the most experienced.
The Pentagon scream about China catching up for more budgets and of course Chinese generals like to talk big game, but I see no reason to believe this is true.
Where are the planes launching from? The airfields in Japan, SK, Taiwan would be the first to be denied via missile saturation attacks.

Where is the USA going to get all the missiles to sustain a conventional warfare?

The planes from American carriers will be outnumbered by anime planes and AA in any battlefield they operate next to the Chinese coast. Not to mention the carriers themselves will be in huge danger from being knocked out from anti-ship ballistic missles and submarines.

See:
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,002
I think for Americans right now the best we can do is continue to work on our own government by getting out the bad apples and voting to put in place people better suited for the positions. Then we can proceed to see what the best approach is for handling the Chineese government.

For now though, I think we should just stand by the protestors in HK, consider Taiwan free, call out the atrocities as they come, make sure USA based companies don't fall in line with anti free speech ideals, etc.
Ain't this the truth? It's essential we get our democracy right. As much as possible, bring a sense of well-being and prosperity and a reverence for democratic (small d) values again.
 

Zed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,784
American GDP growth is 2%.
Even 5% for China sustained over decades would be amazing. US's top growth periods were 4%.

The Great Leap forward, the Cultural Revolution, and Tiananmen sanctions were some of the most disastrous economic periods during the CCP's rule and they managed to not lose grip on power.

I think all this China implosion / collapse theories have time and time being dispelled again.
We have to accept an reality of a competing power / bigger power that's has values that don't align with the US's. The only solution for the US is to grow their population to 600 million people via immigration so that USA can remain the hegemon in world economy.
China is not going to maintain high GDP growth forever. The CCP's rule isn't going to be so easy once growth starts seriously slowing.
 

siteseer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,047
ps4, pc
Where are the planes launching from? The airfields in Japan, SK, Taiwan would be the first to be denied via missile saturation attacks.

Where is the USA going to get all the missiles to sustain a conventional warfare?

The planes from American carriers will be outnumbered by anime planes and AA in any battlefield they operate next to the Chinese coast. Not to mention the carriers themselves will be in huge danger from being knocked out from anti-ship ballistic missles and submarines.

See:
this is why conflict between great powers are limited to proxy wars. any shooting war between the great powers will quickly escalate into mad territory. taking the wanton nature of atomic warfare into consideration the elite will not suffer any such conflict as it means they are literally in the cross hairs.
 

DukeBlueBall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,862
Seattle, WA
China is not going to maintain high GDP growth forever. The CCP's rule isn't going to be so easy once growth starts seriously slowing.
There isn't going to be challenges to CCPs rule unless nations wide crisis hits. It doesn't have to be economic cris
China is not going to maintain high GDP growth forever. The CCP's rule isn't going to be so easy once growth starts seriously slowing.
They don't need to do that. They need to maintain a certain standard of living.

If there are wide spread famines as a result of internal economic policies or corruption then the CCP is probably toast.
 

PurpleCopper

Member
Oct 5, 2019
37
American GDP growth is 2%.
Even 5% for China sustained over decades would be amazing. US's top growth periods were 4%.

The Great Leap forward, the Cultural Revolution, and Tiananmen sanctions were some of the most disastrous economic periods during the CCP's rule and they managed to not lose grip on power.

I think all this China implosion / collapse theories have time and time being dispelled again.
We have to accept an reality of a competing power / bigger power that's has values that don't align with the US's. The only solution for the US is to grow their population to 600 million people via immigration so that USA can remain the hegemon in world economy.
America is a developed country, so 2% GDP is natural. China however is a developing mid-tier country so 6% GDP wouldn't be unusual. As China grows more developed, their GDP will shrink until their GDP matches other developed countries. Now, China wants to sustain that 6% or 5% GDP growth for at least a decade, if it falls below 5% anytime soon, that's troubling for a developing country, just look at India.

As for population size? China's fertility rate is lower than America's, and worse is that their immigration is woefully below America's as well. China's population is gonna peak around 2023 and keep declining until the end of the century. My guess is that they'll stabilize slightly below a billion.

As for the USA, there's no way the population will hit 600 million anytime soon. America population growth has a forecast of around 500 million by the end of the century.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
Where are the planes launching from? The airfields in Japan, SK, Taiwan would be the first to be denied via missile saturation attacks.

Where is the USA going to get all the missiles to sustain a conventional warfare?

The planes from American carriers will be outnumbered by anime planes and AA in any battlefield they operate next to the Chinese coast. Not to mention the carriers themselves will be in huge danger from being knocked out from anti-ship ballistic missles and submarines.

See:
The military always says that it needs more money to face the rising threat of a new military force. There was never a point in time where the pentagon said - yeah, we're good with our current budget.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, since it's really doesn't matter, we're not gonna have a Red Storm Rising scenario any time soon (thanks god), but I wills say this - considering how much bigger the budget of the US military, if they really saying that they can't compete with a technologically inferior country that is spending way less than them on defense, then fire everyone and find people that can.

America has the strongest military in the history of the world, it can't keep acting so scared and insecure.

p.s.
There is no evidence anyone has AA system that can challenge US air superiority, just look at the middle east, no one even dare to turn on a soviet AA system there since 1982.
 

DukeBlueBall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,862
Seattle, WA
The military always says that it needs more money to face the rising threat of a new military force. There was never a point in time where the pentagon said - yeah, we're good with our current budget.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, since it's really doesn't matter, we're not gonna have a Red Storm Rising scenario any time soon (thanks god), but I wills say this - considering how much bigger the budget of the US military, if they really saying that they can't compete with a technologically inferior country that is spending way less than them on defense, then fire everyone and find people that can.

America has the strongest military in the history of the world, it can't keep acting so scared and insecure.

p.s.
There is no evidence anyone has AA system that can challenge US air superiority, just look at the middle east, no one even dare to turn on a soviet AA system there since 1982.
Yeah not going to get into a debate about this but you should read up on the PLA's recent armament program. I think your view about the gap between US and Chinese military is 5-10 years out of date.

A significant fraction of the US budget goes towards overseas bases, anti-insurgency, and feeding the military industrial complex graft.

The PLA gets more bang for their buck to PPP, cheaper weapons from state owned corporations, and can spend their money to counter US strength and exploit US weakness strategically.

A conventional conflict in China's neighborhood will turn out like the Russo-Japanese war.

Obviously if the US spends a few years gearing up specifically for a Chinese confrontation then it'll be different.
 
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Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
8,260
So first of all, if there is some sort of specific condemnation phrasing that will make you stop implying that I'm cool with genocide or whatever let me know and I would sign it in triplicate.
I'm not sure why you're acting like I have some hidden agenda so I'll repeat myself as clear as possible -
I gave you an out in my prior post which you evaded. Again. I'm taking this as a confirmation, nothing else explains your reaction to those questions or your stance defending China in this thread.

Your "aw shucks" routine is wearing thin.

I think there is no reason for the US to take such aggressive stance against China, I think China is not trying to harm the US, and I don't know what specifically you are suggesting to do with China, but things like sanctions are only gonna hurt the Chinese people. And if you're upset that they don't hate their life enough to regime change their government for you, then honestly, you gonna need to be okay with that, because making them poorer is not gonna work, and you most certainly should not pretend that you're doing it to help Chinese people.
You don't think what's going on with the Uighur Muslims in China is worth levering sanctions? Stop moving the goalposts, this isn't about China harming the US, this is about China harming Chinese citizens and the global community's reaction to it. Your phrasing is eerily reminiscent of propaganda and psy-ops for my liking. Conflating your opinion as the only one who matters about caring for Chinese people sure is something, when I'm the one who's shown outrage about what's going on with Chinese citizens while you're ignoring it. The frame defines you as the sole authority of their well being when that's not true.

You can't keep ignoring who is currently running the US, I'm sorry.
Projection. Where are your complaints about the abuse and torture the Chinese government is doing with its own citizens in the threads I linked? Not a word from you here, I may as well not typed it.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm openly condemning it because atrocities are bad no matter which government does it.

Again, let's say whatever you think the west should do in regards to China is done, and let's see the west "win", and China bend the knee and say "the pain is too much, we say uncle, we'll do whatever you want". They're not gonna go to the "many Americans who care about Muslim suffering", they're gonna go to the White House,
This is framing filled with imagery from the times of the Century of humiliation and negative stereotypes of the West/America as the "bad guy" when this is a vastly more complicated circumstance where the West to achieve what they want. Both nations have done many good and bad things in their histories and it's debatable there is a true "good" side in a cold war where that to occur. Which you know.

and you can't keep pretending that the lives of Muslims anywhere are gonna be better with more input from Trump and his administration.
I'm not, you keep injecting Trump or Bush bout the American government as though they are immortal manifestations of it rather than temporary rulers and completely ignore the Democrats both when they become POTUS and as a mainstream political party here. It's harder to discredit America when you pretend the only party who's been elected are Republicans. America isn't China, it's not a one party state.

This would only be possible under another, preferably Democratic, president.

Much like the poor suffering Iraqi in the torture chamber and the rape palaces weren't helped by Bush.
Which I was against, because not every American adores Bush or what he's done. Tell me, what's your stance on what's going on with the Uighurs?

Strawmanning every American you interact with as being a pro Trump/Bush Republican who disagrees with you is disingenuous. I hated the Iraq war, both Bushes and Trump. This is obvious to anyone who follows my posting history, and you know me well enough to know that.

America shouts about human rights every time it talks with or about China, but it doesn't really have any demands from China about that. You are supporting something that has goals that are not really aligned with what you claim you care about. You really don't notice how the people who hates diplomacy always shout about human rights to justify their hawkish stance?
This ignores the hypocrisy on China's regarding human rights. Both nations have been terrible about that, however, nations not condemning others over human rights would be detrimental to human rights globally and cease any pushback for any nations which employ those methods. This completely ignores the numerous people, who aren't war criminals, who do speak up about human rights and are from the West. Trump doesn't for me as Xi doesn't speak for every Chinese citizen.

If this is about America having an economic anxiety that China gonna have higher GDP then them, then let's talk about that.
Moving the goalposts further to get away from what we were discussing earlier.

I'm going to take as a confirmation you'd be on China's side in a theoretical cold war with the US. You're not fooling anybody.
 
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Zed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,784
I don't think Americans really care about China having a higher GDP than America in the near future. What Americans do care about is Chinese censorship creeping into American life because American corporations want to play nice with China to make money.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
584
The Chinese market is too big for corporations to ignore so they will continue to cater to the CCP. Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do at the moment due to how intertwined they are to the global economy.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,023
I gave you an out in my prior post which you evaded. Again. I'm taking this as a confirmation, nothing else explains your reaction to those questions or your stance defending China in this thread.

Your "aw shucks" routine is wearing thin.
I'm honestly unsure at what you're accusing me of even, but regardless, I apologize.
You don't think what's going on with the Uighur Muslims in China is worth levering sanctions? Stop moving the goalposts, this isn't about China harming the US, this is about China harming Chinese citizens and the global community's reaction to it. Your phrasing is eerily reminiscent of propaganda and psy-ops for my liking. Conflating your opinion as the only one who matters about caring for Chinese people sure is something, when I'm the one who's shown outrage about what's going on with Chinese citizens while you're ignoring it. The frame defines you as the sole authority of their well being when that's not true.
I don't think the Chinese citizens you are doing those sanctions for want to be sanctioned.
And again, you still unable to articulate how those sanctions supposed to help them.
So you make everyone more poor and then what?
They rise up and put in a government you like?
That's not gonna happen, at most, they will get to the negotiating table with the US, and again, you can't keep imagining that America gonna ask them to be nicer to Muslims in return to the removal of the sanctions.

I get it that you want to help, that's good, but not all the problems in the world can be solved by economically harming normal people.

As for the rest, I donno, if there a point there that you think it is super important for me to address I'll try, I try to keep this discussion manageable. And in general, I would appreciate if you assume less about my hidden motives, for real, I try to be pretty clear about why I think the things that I do, and it's bot because I'm a Chinese psy-ops or the century of humiliation or whatever.
 

DeusOcha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
964
SoCal, US
Beyond joint-effort global economic policies/sanctions? Nothing at all.

Modern China is the product of the legacy that is colonialism ~100 years in the making. As much as I feel/support the ongoing multi-month protests in Hong Kong, I'm not seeing much hope of support from the greater world.