I'm buying less Chinese stuff. I sold all my Activision stock. And I'm going to be much more mindful of the things I buy. It's not much, but I hope it makes even a small dent.
People have been making those predictions that China is a sham economy that is gonna collapse in the next 18 months tops for over a decade.They are a bit precarious internally, with a massive real estate bubble, an insane male/female imbalance (40m+ more young men than women), and economic underpinnings that may be wildly inefficient and bloated (thats a debatable point). Not to mention things like climate change will hurt their own internal health, water, food, etc far more than Western countries. One little thing could tip everything over, which sort of explains why the Hong Kong thing is being attacked so aggressively by the government to stomp any turmoil, but as with all things governments do it may backfire massively.
well automation is gonna take manufacturing away from china so that's one. other than that i don't know what can really be done. at this point china is the only one that can fuck china's future up.
Agreed.China's hit critical mass and can 'self-sustain' at a level that it'd be willing to accept under sanctions, considering the reciprocity would be more damaging to the west and the chief concern of the Chinese government is maintaining power. Meeting China with broad economic sanctions is meeting their strength with the international community's weakness. And they don't actually give a shit if you deny them Marvel, not that bootlegs wouldn't be showing up in premium theater chains the day of, anyway.You need to find the cracks and drive in a wedge if you want to affect change in China.
I get the feeling that this would only make the Chinese populace feel that they're being attacked unfairly; thereby making it less politically viable to give into Western demands. China may not be a democracy but the CCP still likes to do things that are popular with the people.- Magnitsky-style sanctions on specific high-level party members and their families, bundled with travel bans. Should be self-explanatory.
- A ban on Chinese investment in Western real estate markets. Chinese citizens make huge investments abroad in real estate out of concern about the stability of their own government and banking systems, as well as utilizing property as a means of gaining citizenship for themselves and their families. Chinese ghost cities and, like, all of Canada, apparently, are the emblematic examples of this issue on opposite sides of the spectrum. Closing off this avenue would create significant domestic pressure in China directly on the middle class and newly wealthy that are the core of what allows the Chinese government to do what it does.
- A ban on Chinese students from international higher education. China's hyper-competitive, hyper-arduous educational system is extremely well documented. For a huge portion of those in the new middle-class and rich, college acceptance was the difference between being a reasonably-compensated white collar worker and going back to working in the fields and factories with their parents. Chinese schools are getting better, but they still don't have the educational infrastructure to meet their needs. Even if they did, there's something like 300,000 to 400,000 Chinese students studying abroad in the US alone. Dumping that number of students back into the Chinese system would light the middle class on fire.
All three of these would have to be applied at least across the entirety of North America and more than half of Europe.
- A ban on Chinese students from international higher education. China's hyper-competitive, hyper-arduous educational system is extremely well documented. For a huge portion of those in the new middle-class and rich, college acceptance was the difference between being a reasonably-compensated white collar worker and going back to working in the fields and factories with their parents. Chinese schools are getting better, but they still don't have the educational infrastructure to meet their needs. Even if they did, there's something like 300,000 to 400,000 Chinese students studying abroad in the US alone. Dumping that number of students back into the Chinese system would light the middle class on fire.
I don't think the Chinese people by and large are terribly eager to overthrow their government in a violent revolution.
I'm not sure why anyone thinks that a new revolution would end up more pro-West than the CCP.I don't think the Chinese people by and large are terribly eager to overthrow their government in a violent revolution.
You can argue that they should, I don't know, maybe at some point in the future they would, but I don't think it's smart to pretend like this is an imminent forgone conclusion.
Why would you think it would be effective?Yeah this is what I'm thinking would be somewhat effective. Also side note your avatar with the one word answer had me resisting so hard to reply with some Always Sunny Dee joke.
Agreed.I'm not sure why anyone thinks that a new revolution would end up more pro-West than the CCP.
It's easy to have support when a government's goal of strengthening China and an individual's goal of economic security at perfectly aligned. When the policies that the government feels it needs to maintain authority on issues like free speech, territorial sovereignty, and minority repression start hitting regular citizens in the wallet, well, that's the CCP's version of what Blizzard and the NBA are going through right now. People, as a whole, really only care about their wallets.I get the feeling that this would only make the Chinese populace feel that they're being attacked unfairly; thereby making it less politically viable to give into Western demands. China may not be a democracy but the CCP still likes to do things that are popular with the people.
Different cultures, different values, different viewpoints. China does want to become the world power and US doesn't want to give it up.I feel like the US and China are on a collision course and its terrifying as hell.
But the regular citizens like the territorial sovereignty and minority repression parts, and they're willing to put up with the free speech constraints to get them. Any action like this will be seen by the general populace as an attack on China (because it is), and they're going to gather around the flag and probably demand harsher responses than the federal government is comfortable with. A stick-only approach is only going to backfire. A carrot-and-stick approach might work better, but that carrot had better be something good.It's easy to have support when a government's goal of strengthening China and an individual's goal of economic security at perfectly aligned. When the policies that the government feels it needs to maintain authority on issues like free speech, territorial sovereignty, and minority repression start hitting regular citizens in the wallet, well, that's the CCP's version of what Blizzard and the NBA are going through right now. People, as a whole, really only care about their wallets.
I think the student thing is a bit of a nuclear option though, going after the kids and all. But we're probably past due on real estate restrictions to at least test the waters.
Or taking their money, which also won't happen.The only thing people can do is stop giving them money, which won't happen.
Not a lot, if anything.
We can certainly try to do things such as protesting/boycotting the NBA or Activision-Blizzard, due to their attempts to silence protesters and due to them being not only American companies, but entertainment companies. But in the end, we're not Chinese nationals. There's little actual action we can do that won't put innocent blood on our hands via imperialism- whether literal or cultural- or that will actually make China feel anything.
- Boycotting anything "Made in China"? Not an option for many Americans- cheap clothing and other necessities are too valuable for too large a portion of the population. So, any such boycott would be unsuccessful, as there is no alternative. We'd have to improve our own quality of life before we could even attempt that. Anyone boycotting would just be well off people who care about what happens in other countries, which there aren't a lot of.
- Sanctions? That'll just cut off supplies for the most vulnerable. It's always a poor tactic that does little to punish those who do harm, save in situations where the sanctions would decidedly actually choke the leadership. China is slowly becoming an economic powerhouse that will easily rival if not eclipse the US on the world stage, so sanctions would in no way harm the CPC enough to get them to reconsider their current vile actions.
- Invasion? Right, like the West can be trusted in other countries to not kill innocents or foment more authoritarianism. No.
- Support protesters of Chinese authoritarianism outside of merely spreading information? As if China won't try their hardest to cut off our supply line to them. It could also be then easily spun as "international influence causing trouble" by the CPC, which would cause more good than harm.
As has been pointed out, we can also endeavor to better our own society, which decays and furthers its own descent towards either fascism, authoritarianism, or collapse as we speak. Providing an example of good policy that works can help to inspire potential resistances.
I suppose I could in theory be convinced to support a military intervention in the case of the Uyghur massacre. That comes with a lot of caveats though. It would have to be a mission to aid a self-determined people who need help. To go in unbeckoned is tantamount to imperialism. Additionally, said peoples would need to support even remotely progressive ideals. In every occasion after Korea , it's been in "our" (read: the corporations' and US government's power apparatus including the CIA and FBI) best interests to support right wing rebels and uprisings over more egalitarian minded ones- should the latter even exist. So that's not happening. But then, there would also have to be strict guidelines to prevent civilian causalities from our own attacks or those of our allies. And THAT is something the US has repeatedly refused to do even during the Korean War.
In other words, in practice, there'd be no way an intervention could actually work without making us as culpable of war crimes and violations of human rights as the CPC. Perhaps not as bad. But still far beyond acceptable conduct.
In that case, though, as an alternative I could suggest offering asylum to those who wish to escape... but to offer such people a happy, safe life when so many in the Anglosphere would wish them harm would be a cruel ruse, and an uphill battle to remove elements who would protest such an offer. Again, it turns to us to improve our own countries first.
In summary: absolutely, spread the word about China's atrocities. But there's not much at all that we can do without just causing more harm or doing the equivalent of flipping someone the bird outside of that and, again, improving our own countries to show a way forward/give an actual good asylum.
Well, yes, that goes without saying, or so I thought. My mistake, I'll edit my post a bit. Sorry!The problem with invading China isn't even about imperialism or regime change. The problem with invading China is about invading China. China isn't Iraq circa 2003.
Really great read for those interested in US-China relations. My classmate quoted a passage from it on a presentation and I saved it because it's a good distillation of what happens every time a great power is threatened by an upcoming one.Great book has been written on this: https://www.amazon.com/Destined-War-America-Escape-Thucydidess-ebook/dp/B01IAS9FZY
Thesis is that the majority of the time when a dominating power (the US in this case) a faces a rising nation (China), an eventual war (cold or hot) is the likely outcome. Author doesn't say that war will happen for sure and he goes in-depth in many ways we could avoid a war.
I fear that nothing will stop it unless power changes or if the protests actually work.
I'm going to try to buy stuff that isn't made in China.