• To celebrate the release of Halo: The Master Chief Collection on Steam, Xbox Games Studios has provided 5 Steam copies of the game and 5 Xbox One copies of the game! We will be giving these away in the Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Some Steam copies will also be given away to the PC Gaming Era community.
  • An old favorite feature returns: Q&ERA is back! This time we'll be collecting questions for Remedy Entertainment, makers of Max Payne, Alan Wake, Quantum Break, and Control. Members can submit questions for the next 3 days, 15 hours, 43 minutes, 42 seconds. Submissions will close on Dec 12, 2019 at 12:00 AM.

So Everything that Luke,Han and Leia did on EP.6 is Pointless ? (Big Spoiler)

Topics

  • Yes.

    Votes: 305 47.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 342 52.9%

  • Total voters
    647
Nov 16, 2017
434
Tokyo
It's a fucking story guys of course it's been deemed worthless. Lord of the Rings has a satisfying conclusion. Star Wars had a satisfying conclusion - not anymore.

Hey guys did you know 30 years after Gandalf tried to murder a boy. Did you know that Sauron AND Saruman came back, except this time there towers where 1000 times as big. Did you know that Aragorn did fuck all as ruler. Did you know that Sauron had another ring? Now some new hobbits must go an adventure and destroyed it once and for all!
 

Brinbe

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,215
Terana
I don't think the First Order being a thing is necessarily a bad idea, but the absolute failure to really set up a believable context as to why they're there and as powerful as they are coming off of EP6 is quite dumb and bad storytelling. I'm sure Lucas/Disney have filled in the blanks on that (or they eventually will) in other media in books/games/tv. But on the face of it, it's hard to take them seriously beyond just plain convenience in needing antagonists to mirror the original trilogy, which is also dumb and not compelling.

And having to imaginatively fill in the gaps yourself is just plain bad. I just don't convincingly buy into any of it at all. Maybe we'll get better answers to it all in Ep9 and we'll figure out, oh secret hitler ghost Sheev was behind everything all along!!! Which would be just terrible lol
 
Last edited:

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,952
Appalachia
The Empire had the money of the old senate, but from where the f*ck the first order had the wealth to build a super mega death star? Also re-hiring old stormtroopers clones?
Someone's prolly gonna step in an provide sources for this but IIRC it's a mix of war profiteers we saw in TLJ, Republic groups who did not like that the Republic didn't have a standing army deciding to side with the folks who were building one, and old Empire peeps hiding out in the Outer Rim.

TFA mentioned that their stormtroopers were largely kidnapped kids, some other source mentioned that clones were phased out by the end of the OT if not by ANH. In the beginning the FO stormtroopers were likely followers and they likely took small planets and shit to build their forces before making a big moves.

(not saying this is all kosher with me, I like the political turmoil aspect but if you don't accept SW as being JoJo levels of ridiculous power scaling every new story arc the FO's rise is silly)
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
It's a fucking story guys of course it's been deemed worthless. Lord of the Rings has a satisfying conclusion. Star Wars had a satisfying conclusion - not anymore.

Hey guys did you know 30 years after Gandalf tried to murder a boy. Did you know that Sauron AND Saruman came back, except this time there towers where 1000 times as big. Did you know that Aragorn did fuck all as ruler. Did you know that Sauron had another ring? Now some new hobbits must go an adventure and destroyed it once and for all!
That changes nothing about the original conclusion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
636
Somehow the prequel trilogy managed to be different movies about different things even though it is star wars. Imagine that. The movies might be bad but they had substance and felt like they built on the universe and expanded it. Not contracted it. It is the biggest flaw of the sequel trilogy.

The original movies are the movies that people adore. Making them pointless is the opposite of what they should have done. What 30 years of peace ? Is this something you have been told ? the movie literally starts with kylo blowing shit up, and within the space of half a movie the entire galaxy has been destroyed by the super duper death star.

They could easily have had the same conflict but structured the whole thing differently.. or a different conflict if they wanted. There are so many things they could have done but instead they chose to render all the actions of the characters in the original movies pointless. I don't care about what it says in an appendix book. I care about what they show on the screen.

That said. I appreciate The Last Jedi's attempt to at least do something a little differently and try to course correct. Some of it worked and some of it didnt. But I can appreciate the attempt.
 

Yoshi88

Member
Oct 26, 2017
329
They decentralized so a Palpatine could never happen again. They didn't overreact to planets that didn't want to play ball so a Palpatine never happened again. They did everything they could to keep history from repeating itself, which just made it easy for the First Order to catch them with their pants down since the previous Republic operated the way it did for a reason even if their methods were eventually exploited and used against them.
Nothing of this was told or properly shown in the movies as i recall. That is part of the problem imo. The missing context and buildup that would fill the gaps and make things seem worth it opposed to going "happy end -> total chaos/ new empire" from one movie to another leaving the viewer clueless.
 

BluePigGanon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
892
Um just like life, the point is taking a side and fighting for what's right. Nothing lasts. There will never be a perfect, eternal peace. There will never be harmonious utopia. WWI ends, then there's WW2. Nixon resigns, then there's Reagan. The USSR falls, then there's Putin. Obama wins, then Trump.Al Qaeda, then ISIS.

The fight never ends. The point is the fight. So no, it wasn't pointless. Even if they had LOST it wasn't pointless. The point is they stood up.
 
Feb 16, 2018
1,001
hopefully people hate this trilogy enough that the next one can completely ignore all the characters so that they don't have to build the fiction around their cameo appearances / descendants / force progeny

the greatness of star wars is/was about the setting and the fantasy, not the skywalker family saga
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,232
Yeah, it kinda is. Sure, the original victory still counts, but the huge speed in which the First Order rose again and things returned to status quo is baffling..

The New Republic that Leia helped build has, as far as we know, been completely useless to the point that Leia had to start a new Rebellion, Han and Chewie have somehow gone from heroes and saviours of the Galaxy to being poor smugglers again, Luke's "Return of the Jedi" wasn't so much as a return as it was a failed attempt at reviving Jedi teachings and depending on what JJ. and Terrio did with Palpatine's return (ghost or actual real person) even Vader's big moment in RotJ is voided.

Decades of peace isn't pointless. But nothing lasts.
Do we actually know how many years of 'peace' the Galaxy has known post-RotJ? Because for The First Order to make sense they would've started their conquest pretty damn fast. In TFA and TLJ it's been 30 years since the fall of the Empire and The First Order already has a massive planet-sized superweapon, a Star Destroyer more than twice the size of the Super Star Destroyer and an army of fully grown up Stormtroopers who were captured and brainwashed as children.

Everything points to those 'decades of peace' being more like 'maybe four or five years of peace'.

Man, it's like people play too many videogames.

An achievement or a victory isn't pointless, just because things change and it gets undone in the future. What kind of shortsighted thinking is this?

"Was the victory against the Nazis pointless now that Trump is the President?" - Come the hell on.
This is a terrible analogy. If you think the USA with Trump as President is even close to being the same thing as Nazi Germany, I don't know what to tell you.

Post-WW2 is actually a great indicator of why the rise of The First Order wouldn't make much sense in real life. After World War 2 the world took a very hard look at itself and created institutions to specifically counter that anything on the level of WW2 could ever happen again. You better believe that if someone took power in a powerful country and started showing signs of becoming 'the next Hitler', the UN Security Council would shut that shit down fast.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,478
When you end an episode with peace/happily ever after, you don't start the next episode with everything is suffering and full of chaos.
You build that up.
When you write a story, and there's a bit where something is where all the most interesting stuff happens, everyone will then ask "why aren't you telling that story." SW wrote the book on how to start a story at the bit where shit is going down. 30 years passed between films.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,892
It’s called Star Wars. The OT heroes brought peace for a time but the dark side will always be there.

Was WW1 fought for nothing? WW2? There will always be conflict.
 

Crow Pudding

Member
Nov 12, 2017
438
Someone's prolly gonna step in an provide sources for this but IIRC it's a mix of war profiteers we saw in TLJ, Republic groups who did not like that the Republic didn't have a standing army deciding to side with the folks who were building one, and old Empire peeps hiding out in the Outer Rim.

TFA mentioned that their stormtroopers were largely kidnapped kids, some other source mentioned that clones were phased out by the end of the OT if not by ANH. In the beginning the FO stormtroopers were likely followers and they likely took small planets and shit to build their forces before making a big moves.

(not saying this is all kosher with me, I like the political turmoil aspect but if you don't accept SW as being JoJo levels of ridiculous power scaling every new story arc the FO's rise is silly)
Absolutely, after two new movies, I would have rather named the third movie Rise of the Ewoks and see how they conquer the galaxy.

Coming back to the topic, you can sum up how the good guys turn to a band of dismantled wanderers, with Leia having a spoiled kid, Han turning into some kind of gambler addict which loses his car, Luke failing miserably into teach a bunch of kids and running away to some isolated island, while the bad guys are reorganized into an even more structured and organized faction with much more wealth and power to build a third cannon-house a thousand times bigger than the 2 previous ones, all again without noticing by the winners of the war.
 

Brinbe

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,215
Terana
Yeah, it kinda is. Sure, the original victory still counts, but the huge speed in which the First Order rose again and things returned to status quo is baffling..

The New Republic that Leia helped build has, as far as we know, been completely useless to the point that Leia had to start a new Rebellion, Han and Chewie have somehow gone from heroes and saviours of the Galaxy to being poor smugglers again, Luke's "Return of the Jedi" wasn't so much as a return as it was a failed attempt at reviving Jedi teachings and depending on what JJ. and Terrio did with Palpatine's return (ghost or actual real person) even Vader's big moment in RotJ is voided.


Do we actually know how many years of 'peace' the Galaxy has known post-RotJ? Because for The First Order to make sense they would've started their conquest pretty damn fast. In TFA and TLJ it's been 30 years since the fall of the Empire and The First Order already has a massive planet-sized superweapon, a Star Destroyer more than twice the size of the Super Star Destroyer and an army of fully grown up Stormtroopers who were captured and brainwashed as children.

Everything points to those 'decades of peace' being more like 'maybe four or five years of peace'.


This is a terrible analogy. If you think the USA with Trump as President is even close to being the same thing as Nazi Germany, I don't know what to tell you.

Post-WW2 is actually a great indicator of why the rise of The First Order wouldn't make much sense in real life. After World War 2 the world took a very hard look at itself and created institutions to specifically counter that anything on the level of WW2 could ever happen again. You better believe that if someone took power in a powerful country and started showing signs of becoming 'the next Hitler', the UN Security Council would shut that shit down fast.
Thank you, this is exactly it. Conflict isn't the problem. It's how it came about/explained/excecuted that sucks and it does make a lot about the first six movies seem pretty bad in retrospect as a result. Abrams says that Nazis post-ww2 inspired the First Order
That all came out of conversations about what would have happened if the Nazis all went to Argentina but then started working together again? What could be born of that? Could The First Order exist as a group that actually admired The Empire? Could the work of The Empire be seen as unfulfilled? And could Vader be a martyr? Could there be a need to see through what didn't get done?[18]
except those Argentine Nazis somehow were able to build this super secret planet sized weapon out of nowhere and somehow easily take down the incompetent galaxy-spanning Republic? It's all incredibly stupid and does a disservice to the struggles/triumphs in those movies that did all that so much better.
 

3bdelilah

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,170
That's like saying all the times Link rescued Hyrule was pointless because Ganon always finds a way to retake control. Obviously not pointless because there was a moment of peace, but I do agree that the peace brought after RotJ was - or felt like - a very small period of time all things considered. In my opinion the Skywalker saga should've ended chronologically after RotJ. If need be, the New Republic could've been explored further with other formats than motion pictures, like TV shows, novels, or comics -- like how it's been done with EU/Legends.

This trilogy was Disney's chance to start anew, creating their own interpretation of a vast, vast universe with sheer limitless possibilities, but they opted to cash in heavily on that Skywalker goodness. I mean, from a financial perspective they'd be idiots if they didn't, but from a creative perspective? Missed chance. As much as I loved the Skywalker saga, I'm glad it's gone after TRoS.

But then again, no one - or should I say nothing - is ever really gone.
 

Fj0823

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,654
Costa Rica
The problem is not that Luke eventually had to fight some evil guys after beating the empire.

The problem is just how the new menace is the Empire 2. That never really went away, had enough power to build a new fleet of super weapons had their own not Emperor and Not Vader and hey what the hell turns out they also have the real Emperor.

Had the first order been like a small, hard to locate terrorist cekk that got the support of a new Dark Side user with much bigger plans. It would've been waaaaay easier to swallow.

As it stands. We're still fighting the Empire. Nothing was achieved with ROTJ.
 
Oct 30, 2017
669
This trilogy would have been better in my opinion if it had included some sort of overview of events over the intervening years. Something like having Rey find the equivalent of a photo album in the Falcon would have done a lot for this, and allowed for the OT characters stories to continue without having them take over the focus, plus it would allow for some foreshadowing with pictures of young Ben Solo and maybe articles hinting at Snoke. It strikes me as a relatively unobtrusive way of filling in the gaps and connecting to the OT, though of course this is with hindsight.

Fake edit: Plus, it would tie in perfectly to, "It's true, all of it."
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,315
Needed a new dynamic, the setup of the sequel era is just so damn boring to me. Nothing interesting in it that hasn't been mined to death from the OT. Had to even bring my boy Sheev back to complete the encore. The OT had the overwhelming fascist big brother force with rebels fighting to restore democracy, the prequels had a civil war fought with clones and robots and super beings all engineered to erode democracy. Sequels had, overwhelming big brother dudes with rebels trying to restore democracy.

Prequels showed how easily democracy can die.(to thunderous applause)

The OT showed the gusto and courage you need to restore it after it's been taken.

The sequels could've been about what you need to do to maintain it or something idk. Make an insidious mix of the OT/prequels. The small but rising in popularity FO movement try to cast themselves as the rebels against the New Republic which is facing it's own crisis of trying to fight the FO without becoming corrupt and actually turning into the Empire they're accused of being. I just threw that random shit out but anything really. Looking more forward to Rian's new trilogy honestly.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
This is a terrible analogy. If you think the USA with Trump as President is even close to being the same thing as Nazi Germany, I don't know what to tell you.

Post-WW2 is actually a great indicator of why the rise of The First Order wouldn't make much sense in real life. After World War 2 the world took a very hard look at itself and created institutions to specifically counter that anything on the level of WW2 could ever happen again. You better believe that if someone took power in a powerful country and started showing signs of becoming 'the next Hitler', the UN Security Council would shut that shit down fast.
Maybe it's a terrible analogy to someone who doesn't understand that the first Order isn't Empire 2.0. I can't help you with that, though.

Except Star Wars is a saga. The Skywalker saga's conclusion has unfortunately been unnecessarily extended again.
I'd think the creators decide what's necessary and what isn't. Even Lucas wanted to continue it.
 

Fj0823

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,654
Costa Rica
Nov 16, 2017
434
Tokyo
Maybe it's a terrible analogy to someone who doesn't understand that the first Order isn't Empire 2.0. I can't help you with that, though.



I'd think the creators decide what's necessary and what isn't. Even Lucas wanted to continue it.
Yes but we can still judge the quality of the creators 'extension'. Just because the creator wanted to extend it doesn't make it necessary or good
 

Figgles

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,391
Yeah, it kinda is. Sure, the original victory still counts, but the huge speed in which the First Order rose again and things returned to status quo is baffling..

The New Republic that Leia helped build has, as far as we know, been completely useless to the point that Leia had to start a new Rebellion, Han and Chewie have somehow gone from heroes and saviours of the Galaxy to being poor smugglers again, Luke's "Return of the Jedi" wasn't so much as a return as it was a failed attempt at reviving Jedi teachings and depending on what JJ. and Terrio did with Palpatine's return (ghost or actual real person) even Vader's big moment in RotJ is voided.


Do we actually know how many years of 'peace' the Galaxy has known post-RotJ? Because for The First Order to make sense they would've started their conquest pretty damn fast. In TFA and TLJ it's been 30 years since the fall of the Empire and The First Order already has a massive planet-sized superweapon, a Star Destroyer more than twice the size of the Super Star Destroyer and an army of fully grown up Stormtroopers who were captured and brainwashed as children.

Everything points to those 'decades of peace' being more like 'maybe four or five years of peace'.


This is a terrible analogy. If you think the USA with Trump as President is even close to being the same thing as Nazi Germany, I don't know what to tell you.

Post-WW2 is actually a great indicator of why the rise of The First Order wouldn't make much sense in real life. After World War 2 the world took a very hard look at itself and created institutions to specifically counter that anything on the level of WW2 could ever happen again. You better believe that if someone took power in a powerful country and started showing signs of becoming 'the next Hitler', the UN Security Council would shut that shit down fast.
The UN is pretty toothless. If the US went rogue, there really wouldn’t be anything it could do. The US, Russia, and China already do whatever they want.

The rest I agree with. I was expecting the FO to be equivalent to to the rebellion in the OT. I expected them to be in the shadows fighting a guerilla war. Instead they are even more powerful. I don’t get it. And in a series about space wizards, Starkiller Base was especially ridiculous for some reason. The fractured Empire managed to build that? Not buying it.
 

Deleted member 35011

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
2,185
It wasn't in terms of achievement, but it feels like it when watching it.

Like the blow they dealt to the Empire took them decades to recover from and Luke, in old age, still managed to save the rebels once more. They technically accomplished a lot.

Just as far as facts go, they accomplished a shit ton. It just doesn't super feel like they did for a lot of reasons. Like the new republic actually lasted a long time...but in matter of importance to us as viewers, they go out like the opening of Zoolander 2 in terms of "Oh yeah we're cleaning this up to start out without it" and it just doesn't feel like it matters even though the story says it does. Likewise, Luke technically still saved the rebellion and shit at the end of last jedi, but...ehhhhhhhhhh.

Like I'm not gonna dispute if someone says "on paper, they accomplished a shit ton." It just didn't really feel like it to me, personally. Didn't think the story sold me on it.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
The concept of the First Order is dumb af.

WHY would you not choose to have them as the underdogs/a terrorist group? THAT would've been infinitely more interesting than Empire 2.0
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,213
Han and Leia don’t grow as characters. And Luke becomes a bitter asshole.

People in here throwing out “it’s just a story or that’s how things really happen” are forgetting this is fantasy. The heroes are allowed to win and have a happily ever after.

It’s why the old EU is better. They actually all have positive character growth after ROTJ. Yes, problems still pop up but they dont regress or end up assholes.

Even Luke starts a new but different Jedi Order. One where you can love and be married and have kids etc.

People mock the old EU with things like the horse guy or the Vong while dismissing all the good stuff.

At lest the old EU had positive character growth while still adding conflict.

What does the new EU give except failure and ruining heroes?

Rey’s story could been told away from Luke and the old crew, but for some reason they had to build her up on the corpses of the old.
 

Fj0823

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,654
Costa Rica
Han and Leia don’t grow as characters. And Luke becomes a bitter asshole.

People in here throwing out “it’s just a story or that’s how things really happen” are forgetting this is fantasy. The heroes are allowed to win and have a happily ever after.

It’s why the old EU is better. They actually all have positive character growth after ROTJ. Yes, problems still pop up but they dont regress or end up assholes.

Even Luke starts a new but different Jedi Order. One where you can love and be married and have kids etc.

People mock the old EU with things like the horse guy or the Vong while dismissing all the good stuff.

At lest the old EU had positive character growth while still adding conflict.

What does the new EU give except failure and ruining heroes?

Rey’s story could been told away from Luke and the old crew, but for some reason they had to build her up on the corpses of the old.
I was with you until old EU was better.

I'll take the current canon over having Luke be Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku 24/7

Also, obligatory:


 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,232
Maybe it's a terrible analogy to someone who doesn't understand that the first Order isn't Empire 2.0. I can't help you with that, though.
It looks like the Empire, it sounds like the Empire, it's structured the same way as the Empire, it uses the same weapons as the Empire (only stronger). Hell, it might even turn out to have the same leader as the Empire.

So tell me, how exactly is The First Order not Empire 2.0?
 

Fj0823

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,654
Costa Rica
You made my point. People pull out the silly stuff while dismissing all the good stuff.
Pray tell, in what Universe is anything that requires putting up with the above acceptable?

Luke being a walking unbeatable Gary Stu is not very good either

When the worse the new canon has to show is Commander Carbin...yeah you're doing something right.

Even if I have lots of issues with the new movies I can always look back and say

"Well at least Han Solo isn't fighting an otter while Leia cyclops'd the emperor's son whose name is Trioculus because he has 3 eyes"
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
It looks like the Empire, it sounds like the Empire, it's structured the same way as the Empire, it uses the same weapons as the Empire (only stronger). Hell, it might even turn out to have the same leader as the Empire.

So tell me, how exactly is The First Order not Empire 2.0?
Tell me how Trump isn't a fascist. Obviously he isn't the same as the Nazis, but that wasn't the point of the analogy.

Yes but we can still judge the quality of the creators 'extension'. Just because the creator wanted to extend it doesn't make it necessary or good
So now it's about quality? I thought it was about how much their efforts matter.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,305
I'm sorry I do not follow. Even then these efforts don't matter because they havent taken the story anywhere. They've essentially taken the story back to the start of a new hope.
Except they haven't, because the First Order did not rule the Galaxy at the beginning of TFA. They didn't even in the beginning of TLJ, they were only beginning to abuse the power vacuum left by the destruction of the Republic.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,893
Chesire, UK
There is no final victory over evil. Happily ever after doesn't exist.

That doesn't make the fight pointless. That doesn't make victories hollow. It just means understanding that resting on your laurels is not an option.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

When you end an episode with peace/happily ever after, you don't start the next episode with everything is suffering and full of chaos.
You build that up.
Have you ever watched the film "Star Wars"?
 
Last edited: