So Everything that Luke,Han and Leia did on EP.6 is Pointless ? (Big Spoiler)

Topics

  • Yes.

    Votes: 305 47.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 342 52.9%

  • Total voters
    647

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
569
This is the biggest failure of the ST, making what came before retroactively an excercise in futility. It's true 'nothing lasts', but if you want to show the cycle repeating, do it with a clean slate and don't involve the old characters. Otherwise you are stating that the actions of those characters really were for nothing.

And also on the 'it bought peace' argument. It's just empty words, as we're not shown any of that. We go from 'evil is finally defeated' after 3 movies to 'all your heroes lives went to shit' in, what, a passing mention? And the worst part, there is no story excuse for this, it's just a way for Disney to phase out 'the old product' and introduce 'the new product'.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,276
Ann Arbor, MI
The FO didn’t appear till 4 years before TFA. That is about 25 years of peace.


Are we going to claim Avengers Infinity War/Endgame is pointless because another bad guy is going to show up trying to destroy everything like say a Galactus?
 

Shinjuku 4x4

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
554
Now a new cast can redo it, though. Luke was the only generic thing about the old trilg. Now we have a whole forgettable band
 

Kimaris

Member
Nov 20, 2017
517
Yeah it was pointless, and it’s one of my main issues with this new trilogy. That and the fact other than Leia’s minimal force training, the heroes from the OT haven’t progressed at all. They’ve regressed more than anything.
 

Brock Reiher

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
32,574
the prequel Trilogy was pointless

republic is destroyed but is started again by Leia
anakin is corrupted but is redeemed by luke
Luke and Leia are both born but they eventually die
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,276
Ann Arbor, MI
To those saying nearly 30 years of peace didn’t matter.

Are we saying WWII didn’t matter either because the Cold War and Vietnam followed it?

Are we saying comic book movies where a villain is defeated only to have new villains try to take over the next film do not matter?

Or comic book themselves? How many times has Thanos been defeated and seemingly killed to only come back to recreate his goals?

People hold Star Wars to absurd nitpicking yet ignore these insane rules for every other media franchise on the planet.
 

Prine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,925
Yes.

Im not sure if the First Order controls the galaxy like the Empire, does it? How did it secretly get control to such a degree where all ruling parties obey the FO as centralised government responsible for every aspect of rule, might be me not knowing enough, but with the Empire you knew it was galactic control of economy, society and local governance. We met deeply entrenched ideologues from the Empire, which went far beyond the military. FO barely has that presence.
 
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PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,941
The First Order will likely end up having had control of the majority of major systems for a period of less than maybe 2 or so years depending on the amount of time between TLJ and RoS. Possibly less if we find out that the resistance rebounded to take some stuff back during this time.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't see it erasing what the big three accomplished.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,276
Ann Arbor, MI
The First Order will likely end up having had control of the majority of major systems for a period of less than maybe 2 or so years depending on the amount of time between TLJ and RoS. Possibly less if we find out that the resistance rebounded to take some stuff back during this time.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't see it erasing what the big three accomplished.
Very good point!

Empire rules for 22 years
New Republic ruled for 29 years

The First Order at best will be ruling for around 2 years before taken out.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
Regardless of whether 30 years of peace is “significant”, it is pretty appalling that the galactic government collapsed 3 times in the span of 50 years, one of which allowed the end of representative democracy at the hands of a fascist regime. That is an abyssal track record for everyone involved. Imagine how utterly disillusioned galactic citizens must be by the time the New Republic gets toppled, especially if they lived through the fall of the Old Republic and the Empire. I’d probably turn into a space libertarian and hole up in a wasteland on some backwater planet for the rest of my life.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,402
This is the biggest failure of the ST, making what came before retroactively an excercise in futility. It's true 'nothing lasts', but if you want to show the cycle repeating, do it with a clean slate and don't involve the old characters. Otherwise you are stating that the actions of those characters really were for nothing.

And also on the 'it bought peace' argument. It's just empty words, as we're not shown any of that. We go from 'evil is finally defeated' after 3 movies to 'all your heroes lives went to shit' in, what, a passing mention? And the worst part, there is no story excuse for this, it's just a way for Disney to phase out 'the old product' and introduce 'the new product'.
This is stupid. Struggling against evil and doing the right thing in the face of annihilation is never "for nothing." What should Luke, Han, and Leia have done instead? Stay on Tatooine? Not gotten involved? Died in a Death Star prison cell? The things we do that represent our greatest goals or our greatest good may not last a year, let alone twenty, but that's not a reason to not do them. Stories are not rendered invalid if their outcomes are proven impermanent. The very idea is absurd and betrays a frightening lack of understanding of narrative.

Did anyone with a brain in their head who watched the end of Return of the Jedi really think Han and Leia would last? Did anyone think Luke was really equipped to restart the Jedi order with a couple months of training and two traumatic experiences with the Dark Side under his belt? Of course not, we know the characters too well by then to believe that if we think about it, but we hold on to that last shot, however unrealistic it may be. There's always more story, the key to a happy ending is knowing where to stop telling the story, as RotJ did. But if you want to continue the story later you inevitably run into the truism that there are no happy endings, because nothing ends.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,953
Long Island
Ben didn't come out the womb evil. There was a time of peace. Peace in reality could never exist so it's amazing it lasted as long as it did in the star wars world.
 

feyder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,156
People need to stop feeling like the conclusions in ROTJ were the end all be all. Ofc we're going to find out in the sequels that things aren't fine and dandy, or else what would the story be?

This is supposed to be a 9 chapter story, and episode 6 was just one part of it. Han, Luke, and Leia's victories were huge and important, and saying they were just useless because things went to shit decades later seems kinda dumb.
 
Oct 25, 2017
325
This is the biggest failure of the ST, making what came before retroactively an excercise in futility. It's true 'nothing lasts', but if you want to show the cycle repeating, do it with a clean slate and don't involve the old characters. Otherwise you are stating that the actions of those characters really were for nothing.

And also on the 'it bought peace' argument. It's just empty words, as we're not shown any of that. We go from 'evil is finally defeated' after 3 movies to 'all your heroes lives went to shit' in, what, a passing mention? And the worst part, there is no story excuse for this, it's just a way for Disney to phase out 'the old product' and introduce 'the new product'.
Agree 100%
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
England
It's actually something I don't especially like about the sequel trilogy. It was never going to be easy or quick for the galaxy to recover from imperial rule - it would take decades to even begin to heal the damage, the poverty, the fear... By the time the sequel trilogy began, there would still be remnants of the Empire so heavily entrenched in some star systems that it would require massive fleets of Republic ships to liberate them. But why split up the band?

We could've had a trilogy about a united Skywalker family - Luke, Leia, Han, their kids and friends - facing whatever threat showed itself, to protect the fragile peace they had won for the galaxy. The first movie could even have forgone such a threat entirely, just focusing on introducing the next generation of heroes and dealing with a holdout from the Empire.

Show just how strong Luke is now, how the galaxy is actually safe because he's there. Then you could've killed him. Suddenly the guy everyone relied so much is gone and its up to the kids who he trained to step up and protect the galaxy in his stead against a threat they don't even know is coming, let alone if they're ready for it.

Instead we get quite the downer setting for the new trilogy, where it feels like everything they achieved was ultimately meaningless. Luke is hiding out in grief and regret, Leia is hated by the New Republic, Han fell back into his old smuggler ways, their son joined the dark side and wants nothing more than to kill them, the First Order showed up and within days destroyed the New Republic and conquered the entire galaxy...

That happy ending on Endor isn't so happy any more, knowing their struggles aren't just beginning but we'll never see the gang together again.
 

Faiz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,676
“A life that ends in tragedy negates the beauty and value of what came before the tragedy.”

That’s a terrible world view and I can’t imagine living that way.
 
OP
OP
Yukari

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
3,331
Thailand
Very good point!
The First Order at best will be ruling for around 2 years before taken out.
That a problem.
How Rebels gonna defeat First Order ? and Star System that pro empire will accept become a part of new new repubic again ?

Ben didn't come out the womb evil. There was a time of peace. Peace in reality could never exist so it's amazing it lasted as long as it did in the star wars world.
True. But how did Snoke get to influence Ben? How long had he been scheming? How did someone so powerful not sense a lightsaber moving to gut him? What was his overall plan?
IIRC One of Canon said Snoke was start influence Ben when he still inside Leia.
 
Oct 25, 2017
325
Yes.

Im not sure if the First Order controls the galaxy like the Empire, does it? How did it secretly get control to such a degree where all ruling parties obey the FO as centralised government responsible for every aspect of rule, might be me not knowing enough, but with the Empire you knew it was galactic control of economy, society and local governance. We met deeply entrenched ideologues from the Empire, which went far beyond the military. FO barely has that presence.
The people helming the Lucasfilm Story Group don't seem capable of thinking that broadly
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,851
New York
The FO didn’t appear till 4 years before TFA. That is about 25 years of peace.
Actually the First Order appeared over a decade before TFA.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/First_Order

The First Order appeared around 21 ABY and TFA takes place around 34 ABY. There probably was around 15 years of solid peace and that's not really including the cold war with the remaining Imperial remnants in the years between.
 

Rivenblade

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,104
You don't enter an ENDLESS era of peace, prosperity, and good decisions after winning a war. You do what you can to keep things stable until the next asshole fails to learn from history, or you make poor decisions in the aftermath, or people simply forget. And the cycle begins anew.

No, what they did wasn't pointless. They necessarily defeated an evil.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,870
Hey captain hindsight. They didn't know more movies were to follow. It's all a fucking fantasy story and everything else is made with stans in mind.

As long as Disney is making money with it they will do whatever they want.
 
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shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,536
Boston
A million percent yes. JJ pretty much invalidated the entire history of star wars with his soft reboot approach. Having Han and Leia and Chewie there for the illusion of continuity didn't really help, or really do anything for their characters or the new ones. Thankfully Rian Johnson was there to at least attempt to innovate in the follow up
 

Rivenblade

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,104
Actually the First Order appeared over a decade before TFA.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/First_Order

The First Order appeared around 21 ABY and TFA takes place around 34 ABY. There probably was around 15 years of solid peace and that's not really including the cold war with the remaining Imperial remnants in the years between.
Still worth it when compared to the alternative of complete galactic enslavement and Big Brother-ing.
 

Dennis8K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,127
Yes, the new trilogy for some reason went out if its way to dump all over the original trilogy.
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,989
Montreal
Yes

they were brought for novel nostalgia but then all treated like old timers who are wasted away and disposable

I think it would have been better if they never brought back the old characters now considering how they squandered them and wasted them

it's like if the new directors and writers go out of their way to make the old timers completely disposable and prop like
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,881
Should have just adapted the Thrawn Trilogy.

The characters have positive growth and don’t regress and yet come under a meaningful threat.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,851
New York
As mentioned earlier, if you're an old-timer, you must be utterly confused living in the Star Wars universe. In under a hundred year span you've had the fall of three separate galactic governments and possibly a fourth if the First Order collapses.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,603
Governing is always the hardest part. Bloodline told as much. That said, the original trilogy is not pointless, overthrowing a tyrant never is, but the new trilogy did a poor job of filling in the gaps and explaining the rise of FO.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
England
Should have just adapted the Thrawn Trilogy.

The characters have positive growth and don’t regress and yet come under a meaningful threat.
I haven't actually read that but from Rebels I know Thrawn is an Imperial Admiral, so... Does he like rally the remnants of the Empire to take back the galaxy, using his superior tactics and strategies to defeat a much larger Republic fleet with what few ships he has to work with?
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,458
Luke - Build The New Jedi Order then get destroy again by his nephew.
Han - Have a family but ruined by his son who the join dark side.
Leia - Restore The Republic the get destroy again by Empire 2.0

Where the Vong when we need them ?
The Vong were amazing but cancelled. Sorry.

Also, the point of that series was that the core group from the OG trilogy had passed the torch and much of the focus was not on the skywalker line of characters.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
And Anakin didn’t bring balance. These new films are shiiiiiit. Need to pretend they don’t exist.
Have never understood how anyone heard “balance” and interpreted it to mean “eliminating all evil, leaving only good.” Thousands of light side practitioners vs two Sith was not balanced. The status quo at the end of ROTJ, after Anakin’s final act, is probably far closer to balanced than at any other time in the history of the force.
 

Manmademan

Member
Aug 6, 2018
5,631
You could look at it this way- the "force" constantly seeks balance. Thousands of Jedi running around the galaxy led to several powerful sith wiping them out and busting them down to a handful during the prequels.

Palpatine and Vader being massively powerful sith with no opposition ruling the galaxy led to the return of Luke as a jedi (and leia to a lesser extent) taking them out and restoring "balance".

Luke existing as the only significant force user left (leia aside), gathering a bunch of jedi trainees and starting an academy led to the rise of snoke as a powerful sith, and the return of the empire in the form of the first order.

The power struggle in the galaxy seems to be a constant see sawing back and forth between the light and dark sides of the force when the scale tilts too far in one direction.

If you take the analogy farther, Ben Solo was a powerful force user drawn to the light side of the force, and Rey is a powerful force user drawn to the DARK side of the force...and both are around the same age, implying the universe seeking balance once again. Through circumstance though Ben Solo was corrupted and turned to the dark side, and Rey was abandoned on a desert planet and never received any training until running into the resistance (and eventually Luke) by chance.

The power struggle will continue until Jedi and Sith "end" and a third way is found.

So episode IX will likely end jedi and sith, and show the rise of Skywalker in the place of both.
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
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Nov 10, 2017
8,458

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,948
It wasn't pointless per say, the problem is the only positive it brought is pretty much a sentence in the introduction of the new trilogy. The only thing that you get to see in the new movies is that everything which could have gone wrong went wrong :

Luke as a jedi and ultimately teacher. failed
Friend/familty/love bond between most of the cast. separated and never get reunited
Death of the Empire. copy pasta is there and look just as strong
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
England
Yes. OG Thrawn is more interesting then the Rebels one too imo
That would be fantastic. An underdog villain that doesn't use a superweapon to wipe out an entire star system, but systematically dismantles Republic fleets through pure strategy and experience.

An enemy that, really, Jedi aren't that useful against because the threat he represents isn't something you can swing a lightsaber at. Could've made a nice counterpoint to a threat only a Jedi can truly handle and given the non-Jedi characters someone to challenge and overcome.
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
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Nov 10, 2017
8,458
That would be fantastic. An underdog villain that doesn't use a superweapon to wipe out an entire star system, but systematically dismantles Republic fleets through pure strategy and experience.

An enemy that, really, Jedi aren't that useful against because the threat he represents isn't something you can swing a lightsaber at. Could've made a nice counterpoint to a threat only a Jedi can truly handle and given the non-Jedi characters someone to challenge and overcome.
The Zahn novels do an amazing job of this, as do some of the vong novels, especially the vong vs new republic fleet.
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,881
That would be fantastic. An underdog villain that doesn't use a superweapon to wipe out an entire star system, but systematically dismantles Republic fleets through pure strategy and experience.

An enemy that, really, Jedi aren't that useful against because the threat he represents isn't something you can swing a lightsaber at. Could've made a nice counterpoint to a threat only a Jedi can truly handle and given the non-Jedi characters someone to challenge and overcome.
To be fair, he does find a new better Star Destroyer fleet that Emperor has hidden away.

Plus a couple of dark Jedi (one being special to Luke) to help deal with Luke.

And aside from Stormtroopers had a race of alien assassins to help out as well.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,166
I think the problem is that the New Trilogy skips the buildup. By the time we get to it, the First Order is ALREADY Empire 2: Electric Boogaloo, so instead of seeing a roving terrorist force evolve into a gigantic evil presence over time, everything just...resets. It feels like no progress was actually made.
 

Skyball Paint

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,093
Pray tell, in what Universe is anything that requires putting up with the above acceptable?

Luke being a walking unbeatable Gary Stu is not very good either

When the worse the new canon has to show is Commander Carbin...yeah you're doing something right.

Even if I have lots of issues with the new movies I can always look back and say

"Well at least Han Solo isn't fighting an otter while Leia cyclops'd the emperor's son whose name is Trioculus because he has 3 eyes"

Mon Mothma disbanding the Rebel fleet after the war so JJ can retell A New Hope is dumber than all those combined.