• Introducing Image Options for ResetEra 2.0! Check the left side navigation bar to show or hide images, avatars, covers, and embedded media. More details at the link.

So Everything that Luke,Han and Leia did on EP.6 is Pointless ? (Big Spoiler)

Topics

  • Yes.

    Votes: 301 47.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 339 53.0%

  • Total voters
    640
Nov 8, 2017
1,213
Yes, it's like the USSR overthrowing the government only to turn into a Putin dictatorship years later. Some places aren't worth saving, and that includes Russia and the Star Wars galaxy.

Realistically, the Star Wars saga ended perfectly with Episode 6. It wasn't all happy because Vader died, but he was redeemed, making it bittersweet. The new trilogy is just tacked on because Disney bought the rights to the franchise and needed return on investment. The biggest problem is that the new writers had no original ideas, so they just did a retread of Empire 2.0, destroying everything the OT characters fought for in the process. I like to think of the series ending with Episode 6 and the new stuff is just some bleak alternative timeline.
 
Who was leading the Empire the past 30 years after Vader and the Emperor were killed on the Death Star?

(According to whatever canon is currently "official"?)
As far as I can tell, various high ranking Imperial officers fought over who'd lead the Empire after Palpatine died. One in particular is called Sloane and she was the player character in Battlefront 2 that was expanded further in novels as the driving force behind the First Order.

She'd be in her 70s as of the sequel trilogy but, according to the novel Empire's End, she entered the Unknown Regions specifically to "shepard" Palpatine's plans.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,995
Appalachia
The past couple days has made me realize the irony of people bemoaning Disney for taking a beloved film franchise and removing the happily ever after fairy tale ending that Disney branded in the first place.

Anyway, Star Wars is a dumb pulp serial with already dumb lore. Expecting the creators to take this so seriously that the next villain of the week who pops up needs to have its existence thoroughly explained so some kids can make sure their fan wikis are consistent, or so their historically innacurate concepts of how myths & fairy tales work aren't challenged, seems to be largely missing the point.

I mean I get it, I was one of those people once. Once I stopped being such a curmudgeon I started having a lot more fun talking about stuff.

Imagine how utterly disillusioned galactic citizens must be by the time the New Republic gets toppled, especially if they lived through the fall of the Old Republic and the Empire. I’d probably turn into a space libertarian and hole up in a wasteland on some backwater planet for the rest of my life.
Or you could jump in on some war profiteering over on Canto Bight. Might as well make a buck off of it all, right?
 
Oct 27, 2017
313
Tn, USA
You could have made the First Order work if Snoke had some sort of backstory and the main general guys wasnt such a joke. Ren being a petulant man-child is ok because he needs a growth arc but the other two are completely unconvincing as leaders of a remnant military-industrial complex at odds with an overly hands-off pacifist government that eventually throws a bloody coup.

The First Order needed a cunning merciless leader to square off with a hard nosed Leia. Thrawn would have been perfect for this IMHO. But JJ wanted his mystery boxes, no exposition, all action with familiar beats and aesthetics, sonthat is what we got.
 
Oct 26, 2017
15,247
Who was leading the Empire the past 30 years after Vader and the Emperor were killed on the Death Star?

(According to whatever canon is currently "official"?)
No one, commanders were butting heads while scrambling to put Palpatine's contingency plans in motion. The empire fully lost a year later during the Battle of Jakku. That same year was when The New Republic was organized.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,990
To be fair, Sauron himself is a second coming of evil after Morgoth. And Morgoth himself is supposed to return in a Ragnarok style final battle where the world ends and is remade.

I'm sure people were equally satisfied at the end of the First Age only for evil to reappear in the second and third.
Sauron came a fuck of a lot of time after Morgoth.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,095
The concept of the First Order is dumb af.

WHY would you not choose to have them as the underdogs/a terrorist group? THAT would've been infinitely more interesting than Empire 2.0
This is what I wanted to. Like remnants, using old empire equipment instead of bigger shinier versions of the same things.
Like yeah, all the tie fighter factories can just keep making more fighters and stormtrooper armor only newer versions I guess.
 
Oct 25, 2017
98
"Pointless" is not the correct way to put it.
Attempting to do something good is not pointless, even if you live in a fully predestined type of Universe.


But from a script/story point of view, the potential outcome expected from the Original trilogy feels squandered with not good enough emotional payoff shown off.

1. Leia was always presented as someone that decided to focus on Politics and forming relationships, instead of developing her Force potential.
But leaving the novellas aside, her Resistance (as shown in the movies) feels almost as small as the Rebellion in the OT + Poe's team, some bombers, Holdo, and her capital ship. Sure, you can argue that the movies just didn't show the full scope of the war and sides, but then again, -that's- exactly one of the main criticisms of these new movies: Viewers have to theorize about what happened, for Leia to not have capitalized all the good will of the liberated systems after the fall of the Emperor.

Fans says that the new Republic failed, because the forces were split too much. But let's remember that the Empire covered tons of systems and planets (original Senate). So, if all that took to decimate the core of the the NR armada, was destroying 5 systems/worlds, then that shows that the Empire was actually centralized to an impossibly obscene degree. It's also worth reminding that they weren't supporting Leia's approach to FO anyway.

So, after 30 years, Leia achievements (post-ROTJ) are not as impressive. Which -mind you-, would not be a bad thing (she is no god, can't solve everything alone) if the movies actually had made an emotional point out of it. And now that Carrie is gone, it's hard to believe that JJ will put the onus on her character.


2. Han's receding to his old ways, is also ok. But, we are also left wandering why it happened and how Luke, Ben's darkness and Snoke/Emperor factored in (if at all). His "shining moment" (circumventing Starkiller's field) came and went, with barely any fanfare. It's even unclear if him confronting his son had lasting consequences. If his death amounted to just temporarily mentally-weakening Kylo (so Ray could sort of win), then that's an awful trade off.


Luke's story is still on play, but he at least half assedly teached Ray, and later contributed to spread the legend of the Jedi and the Resistance.
It's however baffling that he got played by Snoke so easily. But then again, it's also unclear why neither Yoda, Obi Wan, Quin Gon, nor Anakin warned him about him/The Emperor, much less guided him on Ben becoming infatuated about Vader.

Hopefully, this is addressed in episode 9.
 
Let’s not get crazy. Regardless of the sins of the sequel trilogy the prequels did more to shrink the universe than it did to expand it. I heard the Clone Wars show is great but I’m just talking about mainline films.
Ah. I see where you are coming from. You're thinking stupid things like c3po being built by anakin and everyone having met once. R2d2, boba and etc. Yeah, I completely agree with you in regards to character relations. What I meant, was from a world building perspective. We had a lot of imaginative new ideas for the prequels while the sequels have relied on things we have seen before. I don't think I've seen any place in the sequel trilogy that really sparkled your imagination of what the universe can look like. I will always think that the ships were too shiny in the prequels, but it still gave us so much that expanded the asthetics of the universe and the locals.


The arguably beatiful city planet we are presented to when first seeing it, which is also shown to have a gritty underworld


Naboo with it's middle eastern inspired cities, which also has the deep contrast with the gungan society under the sea.






Almost Every place has a unique intersting visual asthetic that expands a bit on how a planet can look like In the star wars universe, how people can look like, how they live etc. They feel lived in, and like more than sets is what I'm saying.
 
Oct 30, 2017
6,150
Yeah, don't you remember how World War 2 happened and everyone was all like "Ugh, all that hard work we did during World War 1 to secure peace was toooootally pointless"?

Nothing is permanent. Toppling a dictator doesn't magically create a utopia. Read a history book or watch a documentary sometime.
 
Peace lasted until the next group of power hungry assholes decided to make a power grab. That's just how the world works. Fiction and real life. Luke and company didn't defeat all the assholes in the galaxy. Just the current crop. Now, there's a new crop of assholes that Rey and company have to defeat. And then there will be a new new crop of assholes that them or the next series protagonists will have to defeat. Come on, man. it isn't rocket science. It's Star Wars.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,610
Ann Arbor, MI
Ah. I see where you are coming from. You're thinking stupid things like c3po being built by anakin and everyone having met once. R2d2, boba and etc. Yeah, I completely agree with you in regards to character relations. What I meant, was from a world building perspective. We had a lot of imaginative new ideas for the prequels while the sequels have relied on things we have seen before. I don't think I've seen any place in the sequel trilogy that really sparkled your imagination of what the universe can look like. I will always think that the ships were too shiny in the prequels, but it still gave us so much that expanded the asthetics of the universe and the locals.


The arguably beatiful city planet we are presented to when first seeing it, which is also shown to have a gritty underworld


Naboo with it's middle eastern inspired cities, which also has the deep contrast with the gungan society under the sea.






Almost Every place has a unique intersting visual asthetic that expands a bit on how a planet can look like In the star wars universe, how people can look like, how they live etc. They feel lived in, and like more than sets is what I'm saying.
I think Ach-To has worked itself into being a very iconic Star Wars locale. That island has become very iconic imagery for the franchise in just a short few years.



 
Oct 28, 2017
862
ST locations hasn't been really very populated, tbh, but they aren't any less beautiful. I enjoyed Jakku, Starkiller, Ach-To and the salt planet.

Naboo, Coruscant and the final battle locations are cool, but the clone factory is awful, IMO.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,159
It's the reason the Sequel Trilogy sucked since TFA and not TLJ like most people say, it rehashed the OT instead of moving forward. Ep 9 can at lest somewhat fix this mess by having the Emperor return and now the reason why nothing changed is because "The Emperor was still moving the strings all along", meh not what I would've wanted for an explanation but at least it explains something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,610
Ann Arbor, MI
It looks fine, but it doesn't really spark your imagination. It doesn't look like you've been transported to another planet.
Oh I disagree completely, when I first saw Ach-To it sparked my imagination. It is such a cool locale far different than any place we saw in Star Wars before. It really stood out and left a mark in my brain of wondering what type of life was there, the history of the Jedi there.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,328
New Jersey
It’s funny seeing people look back fondly on the designs and worlds in the prequels because I remember at the time the criticism was that the movie didn’t feel like Star Wars.

Like, come on, did anyone really like Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau or Mustafar? Were you really wowed by the underwater Gungan city? Even the worlds shown in the Order 66 montage looked like a cheap animated movie.

It was really only Coruscant that really stood out to me, personally.
 
Oct 28, 2017
85
To me, the worst thing the ST did was force cameos from the OT cast. I don't remember the exact line, but in TFA Rey says something along the lines of "legendary Luke Skywalker" or "I thought Jedi were a myth," only to have her immediately come in contact with that entire cast of characters. The new series taking place hundreds of years after ROTJ would have allowed for new characters to touch on the events of the past without mucking up any legacy. You could even throw in Luke as a force ghost, R2 and C3PO as companions, the Millennium Falcon, and/or a distant descendant of one of the characters. Hell, it even would leave open the possibility of the already-existing EU as canon (if you went ahead far enough).

My hope is that after Episode IX, Disney leaves behind the Skywalkers and Skywalker-adjacents and goes off to explore the rest of the galaxy.

To be clear, I don't at all hate the ST or what Disney has done so far, I just would have preferred something a bit different in hindsight.
 
It’s funny seeing people look back fondly on the designs and worlds in the prequels because I remember at the time the criticism was that the movie didn’t feel like Star Wars.

Like, come on, did anyone really like Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau or Mustafar? Were you really wowed by the underwater Gungan city? Even the worlds shown in the Order 66 montage looked like a cheap animated movie.

It was really only Coruscant that really stood out to me, personally.
I remember really liking Kamino and Naboo (including the Gungan city). Geonosis was a cool concept but there's only so far that goes if it's just the backdrop of a battle.

Coruscant didn't feel very new to me due to being familiar with it through the EU already. And I'll admit that Naboo resonates with me more than other PT locales because how much of it was actually shot on location.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,328
New Jersey
I remember really liking Kamino and Naboo (including the Gungan city). Geonosis was a cool concept but there's only so far that goes if it's just the backdrop of a battle.

Coruscant didn't feel very new to me due to being familiar with it through the EU already. And I'll admit that Naboo resonates with me more than other PT locales because how much of it was actually shot on location.
I agree that Naboo was a great addition.
 
Oct 26, 2017
149
It’s funny seeing people look back fondly on the designs and worlds in the prequels because I remember at the time the criticism was that the movie didn’t feel like Star Wars.

Like, come on, did anyone really like Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau or Mustafar? Were you really wowed by the underwater Gungan city? Even the worlds shown in the Order 66 montage looked like a cheap animated movie.
.
Yes to all 5 questions and i loved the order 66 montage. This all played a huge part in making Star Wars feel like a fully realized universe for me. Ranging from little nods of visual context to full blown settings that explain the background of characters and factions.
 
If it makes you feel any better, Lucas (the author of Star Wars) was planning on making a new trilogy before the Disney buyout and his outline for episode 7 included Luke in self-imposed exile on a remote planet. It would be fair to assume the reason for this might have involved failing to restore the Jedi Order. JJ and KK have said they consulted Lucas for episode 9 so his sequel trilogy probably did involve Palpatine in some fashion, too.
Something doesn't become better just because the creator planned it. Look at the prequels, look at the Potterverse.
 
Pretty much.

I'm tired of the lazy argument that, "nothing lasts forever and pay attention to history." First, Star Wars isn't real life. If Rey, Finn, and Poe were all vaporized by a random passing photon torpedo on the battlefield I doubt you'd just shrug and go, "welp, that shit happens in real life. Good guys and heroes don't always win or survive in war." So, that argument is without merit.

The second lazy argument is that the series is called STAR WARS thus conflict and war is inevitable. Again, this is a poor argument that creates a strawman for an easy rebuttal. No one is saying that SW films should be without conflict, they're saying that a new conflict so soon after our OT heroes last victory, a conflict that completely negates their victory, is poor taste.

There could have still been a new conflict without completely destroying the New Republic, creating the Empire 2.0, and completely destroying the Jedi Order, again. This isn't just some new conflict, it's the exact same conflict our heroes won. It tells us that they all utterly failed. And, they couldn't even get a decade of peace. Remember, the war didn't end with ROTJ. Five years after that they were still pushing the Empire back. Then when they finally won and the New Republic came about, they got a few years of peace before TFO showed up. So, the "peace" was beyond fleeting.

It's understandable that people are upset that there heroes failed so completely so soon after their victory. As another pointed out, it's like Sauron's brother coming back and fucking up Middle Earth a few years after ROTK. It's nonsense.
Exactly.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,324
It's funny how people say Ahch-To feels otherworldly, since to me it's one of the most ordinary looking locations in all of Star Wars. Probably because Ahch-To is literally a place on Earth. Like, the only thing they did is change Puffins into Porgs and add those Muppet-looking Caretakers. Even the "Jedi temples" are actually old monastry ruins that are already on the real-life island.

Even stuff like Tatooine and the Forest Moon of Endor felt more otherworldly to me since at least those put these weird cities, creatures and societies inside their environment that made those places feel different, even though it was just a sandy desert and a big forest.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,328
New Jersey
It's funny how people say Ahch-To feels otherworldly, since to me it's one of the most ordinary looking locations in all of Star Wars. Probably because Ahch-To is literally a place on Earth. Like, the only thing they did is change Puffins into Porgs and add those Muppet-looking Caretakers. Even the "Jedi temples" are actually old monastry ruins that are already on the real-life island.

Even stuff like Tatooine and the Forest Moon of Endor felt more otherworldly to me since at least those put these weird cities, creatures and societies inside their environment that made those places feel different, even though it was just a sandy desert and a big forest.
Nah, what I said was, the way JJ shot the location gave it an otherworldly feel, not that the location itself couldn’t be a real place
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,033
You could have made the First Order work if Snoke had some sort of backstory and the main general guys wasnt such a joke. Ren being a petulant man-child is ok because he needs a growth arc but the other two are completely unconvincing as leaders of a remnant military-industrial complex at odds with an overly hands-off pacifist government that eventually throws a bloody coup.

The First Order needed a cunning merciless leader to square off with a hard nosed Leia. Thrawn would have been perfect for this IMHO. But JJ wanted his mystery boxes, no exposition, all action with familiar beats and aesthetics, sonthat is what we got.
Snoke not being a focus and the way the generals were are a huge strength.