being convinced does not need a negative or positive connotation.
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So Everything that Luke,Han and Leia did on EP.6 is Pointless ? (Big Spoiler)
- Thread starter Yukari
- Start date
being convinced does not need a negative or positive connotation.
Who was leading the Empire the past 30 years after Vader and the Emperor were killed on the Death Star?
(According to whatever canon is currently "official"?)
(According to whatever canon is currently "official"?)
Yes, it's like the USSR overthrowing the government only to turn into a Putin dictatorship years later. Some places aren't worth saving, and that includes Russia and the Star Wars galaxy.
Realistically, the Star Wars saga ended perfectly with Episode 6. It wasn't all happy because Vader died, but he was redeemed, making it bittersweet. The new trilogy is just tacked on because Disney bought the rights to the franchise and needed return on investment. The biggest problem is that the new writers had no original ideas, so they just did a retread of Empire 2.0, destroying everything the OT characters fought for in the process. I like to think of the series ending with Episode 6 and the new stuff is just some bleak alternative timeline.
Realistically, the Star Wars saga ended perfectly with Episode 6. It wasn't all happy because Vader died, but he was redeemed, making it bittersweet. The new trilogy is just tacked on because Disney bought the rights to the franchise and needed return on investment. The biggest problem is that the new writers had no original ideas, so they just did a retread of Empire 2.0, destroying everything the OT characters fought for in the process. I like to think of the series ending with Episode 6 and the new stuff is just some bleak alternative timeline.
As far as I can tell, various high ranking Imperial officers fought over who'd lead the Empire after Palpatine died. One in particular is called Sloane and she was the player character in Battlefront 2 that was expanded further in novels as the driving force behind the First Order.
She'd be in her 70s as of the sequel trilogy but, according to the novel Empire's End, she entered the Unknown Regions specifically to "shepard" Palpatine's plans.
The past couple days has made me realize the irony of people bemoaning Disney for taking a beloved film franchise and removing the happily ever after fairy tale ending that Disney branded in the first place.
Anyway, Star Wars is a dumb pulp serial with already dumb lore. Expecting the creators to take this so seriously that the next villain of the week who pops up needs to have its existence thoroughly explained so some kids can make sure their fan wikis are consistent, or so their historically innacurate concepts of how myths & fairy tales work aren't challenged, seems to be largely missing the point.
I mean I get it, I was one of those people once. Once I stopped being such a curmudgeon I started having a lot more fun talking about stuff.
Anyway, Star Wars is a dumb pulp serial with already dumb lore. Expecting the creators to take this so seriously that the next villain of the week who pops up needs to have its existence thoroughly explained so some kids can make sure their fan wikis are consistent, or so their historically innacurate concepts of how myths & fairy tales work aren't challenged, seems to be largely missing the point.
I mean I get it, I was one of those people once. Once I stopped being such a curmudgeon I started having a lot more fun talking about stuff.
Or you could jump in on some war profiteering over on Canto Bight. Might as well make a buck off of it all, right?
The SWBF2 protagonist is Iden Versio, different person.
You could have made the First Order work if Snoke had some sort of backstory and the main general guys wasnt such a joke. Ren being a petulant man-child is ok because he needs a growth arc but the other two are completely unconvincing as leaders of a remnant military-industrial complex at odds with an overly hands-off pacifist government that eventually throws a bloody coup.
The First Order needed a cunning merciless leader to square off with a hard nosed Leia. Thrawn would have been perfect for this IMHO. But JJ wanted his mystery boxes, no exposition, all action with familiar beats and aesthetics, sonthat is what we got.
The First Order needed a cunning merciless leader to square off with a hard nosed Leia. Thrawn would have been perfect for this IMHO. But JJ wanted his mystery boxes, no exposition, all action with familiar beats and aesthetics, sonthat is what we got.
No one, commanders were butting heads while scrambling to put Palpatine's contingency plans in motion. The empire fully lost a year later during the Battle of Jakku. That same year was when The New Republic was organized.
This is what I wanted to. Like remnants, using old empire equipment instead of bigger shinier versions of the same things.
Like yeah, all the tie fighter factories can just keep making more fighters and stormtrooper armor only newer versions I guess.
"Pointless" is not the correct way to put it.
Attempting to do something good is not pointless, even if you live in a fully predestined type of Universe.
But from a script/story point of view, the potential outcome expected from the Original trilogy feels squandered with not good enough emotional payoff shown off.
1. Leia was always presented as someone that decided to focus on Politics and forming relationships, instead of developing her Force potential.
But leaving the novellas aside, her Resistance (as shown in the movies) feels almost as small as the Rebellion in the OT + Poe's team, some bombers, Holdo, and her capital ship. Sure, you can argue that the movies just didn't show the full scope of the war and sides, but then again, -that's- exactly one of the main criticisms of these new movies: Viewers have to theorize about what happened, for Leia to not have capitalized all the good will of the liberated systems after the fall of the Emperor.
Fans says that the new Republic failed, because the forces were split too much. But let's remember that the Empire covered tons of systems and planets (original Senate). So, if all that took to decimate the core of the the NR armada, was destroying 5 systems/worlds, then that shows that the Empire was actually centralized to an impossibly obscene degree. It's also worth reminding that they weren't supporting Leia's approach to FO anyway.
So, after 30 years, Leia achievements (post-ROTJ) are not as impressive. Which -mind you-, would not be a bad thing (she is no god, can't solve everything alone) if the movies actually had made an emotional point out of it. And now that Carrie is gone, it's hard to believe that JJ will put the onus on her character.
2. Han's receding to his old ways, is also ok. But, we are also left wandering why it happened and how Luke, Ben's darkness and Snoke/Emperor factored in (if at all). His "shining moment" (circumventing Starkiller's field) came and went, with barely any fanfare. It's even unclear if him confronting his son had lasting consequences. If his death amounted to just temporarily mentally-weakening Kylo (so Ray could sort of win), then that's an awful trade off.
Luke's story is still on play, but he at least half assedly teached Ray, and later contributed to spread the legend of the Jedi and the Resistance.
It's however baffling that he got played by Snoke so easily. But then again, it's also unclear why neither Yoda, Obi Wan, Quin Gon, nor Anakin warned him about him/The Emperor, much less guided him on Ben becoming infatuated about Vader.
Hopefully, this is addressed in episode 9.
Attempting to do something good is not pointless, even if you live in a fully predestined type of Universe.
But from a script/story point of view, the potential outcome expected from the Original trilogy feels squandered with not good enough emotional payoff shown off.
1. Leia was always presented as someone that decided to focus on Politics and forming relationships, instead of developing her Force potential.
But leaving the novellas aside, her Resistance (as shown in the movies) feels almost as small as the Rebellion in the OT + Poe's team, some bombers, Holdo, and her capital ship. Sure, you can argue that the movies just didn't show the full scope of the war and sides, but then again, -that's- exactly one of the main criticisms of these new movies: Viewers have to theorize about what happened, for Leia to not have capitalized all the good will of the liberated systems after the fall of the Emperor.
Fans says that the new Republic failed, because the forces were split too much. But let's remember that the Empire covered tons of systems and planets (original Senate). So, if all that took to decimate the core of the the NR armada, was destroying 5 systems/worlds, then that shows that the Empire was actually centralized to an impossibly obscene degree. It's also worth reminding that they weren't supporting Leia's approach to FO anyway.
So, after 30 years, Leia achievements (post-ROTJ) are not as impressive. Which -mind you-, would not be a bad thing (she is no god, can't solve everything alone) if the movies actually had made an emotional point out of it. And now that Carrie is gone, it's hard to believe that JJ will put the onus on her character.
2. Han's receding to his old ways, is also ok. But, we are also left wandering why it happened and how Luke, Ben's darkness and Snoke/Emperor factored in (if at all). His "shining moment" (circumventing Starkiller's field) came and went, with barely any fanfare. It's even unclear if him confronting his son had lasting consequences. If his death amounted to just temporarily mentally-weakening Kylo (so Ray could sort of win), then that's an awful trade off.
Luke's story is still on play, but he at least half assedly teached Ray, and later contributed to spread the legend of the Jedi and the Resistance.
It's however baffling that he got played by Snoke so easily. But then again, it's also unclear why neither Yoda, Obi Wan, Quin Gon, nor Anakin warned him about him/The Emperor, much less guided him on Ben becoming infatuated about Vader.
Hopefully, this is addressed in episode 9.
Ah. I see where you are coming from. You're thinking stupid things like c3po being built by anakin and everyone having met once. R2d2, boba and etc. Yeah, I completely agree with you in regards to character relations. What I meant, was from a world building perspective. We had a lot of imaginative new ideas for the prequels while the sequels have relied on things we have seen before. I don't think I've seen any place in the sequel trilogy that really sparkled your imagination of what the universe can look like. I will always think that the ships were too shiny in the prequels, but it still gave us so much that expanded the asthetics of the universe and the locals.
The arguably beatiful city planet we are presented to when first seeing it, which is also shown to have a gritty underworld
Naboo with it's middle eastern inspired cities, which also has the deep contrast with the gungan society under the sea.
Almost Every place has a unique intersting visual asthetic that expands a bit on how a planet can look like In the star wars universe, how people can look like, how they live etc. They feel lived in, and like more than sets is what I'm saying.
Yeah, don't you remember how World War 2 happened and everyone was all like "Ugh, all that hard work we did during World War 1 to secure peace was toooootally pointless"?
Nothing is permanent. Toppling a dictator doesn't magically create a utopia. Read a history book or watch a documentary sometime.
Nothing is permanent. Toppling a dictator doesn't magically create a utopia. Read a history book or watch a documentary sometime.
Peace lasted until the next group of power hungry assholes decided to make a power grab. That's just how the world works. Fiction and real life. Luke and company didn't defeat all the assholes in the galaxy. Just the current crop. Now, there's a new crop of assholes that Rey and company have to defeat. And then there will be a new new crop of assholes that them or the next series protagonists will have to defeat. Come on, man. it isn't rocket science. It's Star Wars.
I think Ach-To has worked itself into being a very iconic Star Wars locale. That island has become very iconic imagery for the franchise in just a short few years.Ah. I see where you are coming from. You're thinking stupid things like c3po being built by anakin and everyone having met once. R2d2, boba and etc. Yeah, I completely agree with you in regards to character relations. What I meant, was from a world building perspective. We had a lot of imaginative new ideas for the prequels while the sequels have relied on things we have seen before. I don't think I've seen any place in the sequel trilogy that really sparkled your imagination of what the universe can look like. I will always think that the ships were too shiny in the prequels, but it still gave us so much that expanded the asthetics of the universe and the locals.
The arguably beatiful city planet we are presented to when first seeing it, which is also shown to have a gritty underworld
Naboo with it's middle eastern inspired cities, which also has the deep contrast with the gungan society under the sea.
Almost Every place has a unique intersting visual asthetic that expands a bit on how a planet can look like In the star wars universe, how people can look like, how they live etc. They feel lived in, and like more than sets is what I'm saying.
ST locations hasn't been really very populated, tbh, but they aren't any less beautiful. I enjoyed Jakku, Starkiller, Ach-To and the salt planet.
Naboo, Coruscant and the final battle locations are cool, but the clone factory is awful, IMO.
Naboo, Coruscant and the final battle locations are cool, but the clone factory is awful, IMO.
It's the reason the Sequel Trilogy sucked since TFA and not TLJ like most people say, it rehashed the OT instead of moving forward. Ep 9 can at lest somewhat fix this mess by having the Emperor return and now the reason why nothing changed is because "The Emperor was still moving the strings all along", meh not what I would've wanted for an explanation but at least it explains something.
It looks fine, but it doesn't really spark your imagination. It doesn't look like you've been transported to another planet.I think Ach-To has worked itself into being a very iconic Star Wars locale. That island has become very iconic imagery for the franchise in just a short few years.
Oh I disagree completely, when I first saw Ach-To it sparked my imagination. It is such a cool locale far different than any place we saw in Star Wars before. It really stood out and left a mark in my brain of wondering what type of life was there, the history of the Jedi there.
I think Ach-To has worked itself into being a very iconic Star Wars locale. That island has become very iconic imagery for the franchise in just a short few years.
JJ shot it better. Felt more otherworldly in TFA
It's funny seeing people look back fondly on the designs and worlds in the prequels because I remember at the time the criticism was that the movie didn't feel like Star Wars.
Like, come on, did anyone really like Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau or Mustafar? Were you really wowed by the underwater Gungan city? Even the worlds shown in the Order 66 montage looked like a cheap animated movie.
It was really only Coruscant that really stood out to me, personally.
Like, come on, did anyone really like Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau or Mustafar? Were you really wowed by the underwater Gungan city? Even the worlds shown in the Order 66 montage looked like a cheap animated movie.
It was really only Coruscant that really stood out to me, personally.
To me, the worst thing the ST did was force cameos from the OT cast. I don't remember the exact line, but in TFA Rey says something along the lines of "legendary Luke Skywalker" or "I thought Jedi were a myth," only to have her immediately come in contact with that entire cast of characters. The new series taking place hundreds of years after ROTJ would have allowed for new characters to touch on the events of the past without mucking up any legacy. You could even throw in Luke as a force ghost, R2 and C3PO as companions, the Millennium Falcon, and/or a distant descendant of one of the characters. Hell, it even would leave open the possibility of the already-existing EU as canon (if you went ahead far enough).
My hope is that after Episode IX, Disney leaves behind the Skywalkers and Skywalker-adjacents and goes off to explore the rest of the galaxy.
To be clear, I don't at all hate the ST or what Disney has done so far, I just would have preferred something a bit different in hindsight.
My hope is that after Episode IX, Disney leaves behind the Skywalkers and Skywalker-adjacents and goes off to explore the rest of the galaxy.
To be clear, I don't at all hate the ST or what Disney has done so far, I just would have preferred something a bit different in hindsight.
I remember really liking Kamino and Naboo (including the Gungan city). Geonosis was a cool concept but there's only so far that goes if it's just the backdrop of a battle.
Coruscant didn't feel very new to me due to being familiar with it through the EU already. And I'll admit that Naboo resonates with me more than other PT locales because how much of it was actually shot on location.
Yes to all 5 questions and i loved the order 66 montage. This all played a huge part in making Star Wars feel like a fully realized universe for me. Ranging from little nods of visual context to full blown settings that explain the background of characters and factions.
Something doesn't become better just because the creator planned it. Look at the prequels, look at the Potterverse.
It's funny how people say Ahch-To feels otherworldly, since to me it's one of the most ordinary looking locations in all of Star Wars. Probably because Ahch-To is literally a place on Earth. Like, the only thing they did is change Puffins into Porgs and add those Muppet-looking Caretakers. Even the "Jedi temples" are actually old monastry ruins that are already on the real-life island.
Even stuff like Tatooine and the Forest Moon of Endor felt more otherworldly to me since at least those put these weird cities, creatures and societies inside their environment that made those places feel different, even though it was just a sandy desert and a big forest.
Even stuff like Tatooine and the Forest Moon of Endor felt more otherworldly to me since at least those put these weird cities, creatures and societies inside their environment that made those places feel different, even though it was just a sandy desert and a big forest.
Nah, what I said was, the way JJ shot the location gave it an otherworldly feel, not that the location itself couldn't be a real place
Snoke not being a focus and the way the generals were are a huge strength.
You think? The First Order being led by buffoons really undercut their threat for me. How and where snoke got the funding to build all his stuff and got all these people to follow him is a real issue. As "generic bad guys" they sorta work but it could have been much better, IMHO. And having Leia match wits with Thrawn would have been awesome and shown how she molded and drove the Resistance against a threat that everyone else underestimated but was actually a real problem. Instead I feel Leia was mostly wasted and the FO is inexplicably powerful.