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Watershed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,803
Pretty sure it was more of a concept test than a full game.

However, it would be interesting to see the next 2d Zelda adapt some of BOTW's systemic interactions and open-ended exploration to the top down Zelda formula.
 

jakomocha

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,571
California
There's actually footage of the 2D BOTW prototype here btw


Looks pretty cool. Would love to see a full blown 2D game inspired by BOTW though
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
www.polygon.com

The Breath of the Wild team created a 2D Zelda prototype to test mechanics

The team used a 2D The Legend of Zelda to test ideas


According to this old article they created this 2d style Zelda game in order to test out some of their ideas visually, while designing botw, while I have my doubts as to how close in comparison they'd be, I'd love to be able to play such a game, even if just for the novelty.
It's just a test bed for code and concepts. Not an actual game
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
Why has this not become Zelda Maker yet?
While at first this might seem like a good idea a Zelda Maker cant work well. Well, at least not in the same way Mario Maker does. Mario Maker works because you design and play short levels by others and these are complete experiences. Zelda games are the opposite of "level after level" games and mostly need a highly developed and integrated story / world /design which wouldn't either be possible to create or so complicated that most people just cant or wont do it. The others can just use RPG maker or.. Unity or something to create their stuff.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,585
While at first this might seem like a good idea a Zelda Maker cant work well. Well, at least not in the same way Mario Maker does. Mario Maker works because you design and play short levels by others and these are complete experiences. Zelda games are the opposite of "level after level" games and mostly need a highly developed and integrated story / world /design which wouldn't either be possible to create or so complicated that most people just cant or wont do it. The others can just use RPG maker or.. Unity or something to create their stuff.

It just needs to be a "dungeon maker." I think Dampe's shitty minigame in LW was them trying to figure something out but obviously it's harder to have people design a dungeon with locked doors, an item, etc. I think it can be done though.
 

aloner

Member
Jun 30, 2021
2,480
Australia
It would have to be a dungeon maker I think - but the issue is probably that it takes a lot longer to complete a Zelda dungeon than it does an average Mario level so they aren't as conducive to the kind of gameplay that made Mario Maker so popular (plus the mechanics of 2D Zelda don't exactly lend themselves to wackiness like Mario) but I think a 2d zelda with reactive physics/environments and return to Zelda 1 style would be a good idea at some point
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,500
This is pretty amazing and all, I just don't understand how they used this to help design concepts for Breath of the Wild. Like they needed a 2D version of Link shooting fire arrows at trees to get the idea down for Link in 3D to do that? That sounds like it would limit what could be done in the 3D version going about it that way.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I mean yeah, but somewhere along the way you'd think it'd spark the idea in someone's mind
Well, the idea for Super Mario Maker came about because they were literally making a dev tool for building 2D Mario levels and decided that it could become a game in itself. This concept test bed for BotW doesn't have the same origin or purpose. And they obviously have pondered the idea, which is where the dungeon builder in the Link's Awakening remake came from. Whether it's worth expanding Dungeon Builder into a full game of its own is another question.
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
This is pretty amazing and all, I just don't understand how they used this to help design concepts for Breath of the Wild. Like they needed a 2D version of Link shooting fire arrows at trees to get the idea down for Link in 3D to do that? That sounds like it would limit what could be done in the 3D version going about it that way.
Apparently the idea was to kinda go back to Zelda 1 and re-envision that game. From that perspective it makes sense to build a Zelda 1-alike to try out different new things and how they would fit into the concept. 2D stuff is much easier to build and iterate than building and redesigning a 3D prototype all the time.
 

office life

Member
Nov 5, 2020
86
man so cool. botw is still the goat. I wish i could play it! i love me some zlda 1 too, so a more fleshed out, mechanically rich zelda 1 would be dope
 

Teejay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,555
This is pretty amazing and all, I just don't understand how they used this to help design concepts for Breath of the Wild. Like they needed a 2D version of Link shooting fire arrows at trees to get the idea down for Link in 3D to do that? That sounds like it would limit what could be done in the 3D version going about it that way.

Game director Hidemaro Fujibayashi revealed a 2D Zelda prototype that mimicked concepts now seen in Breath of the Wild. He told a packed panel at the Game Developers Conference today that the prototype was useful for testing ideas of open-world gameplay, and also help the game return to its roots.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
This is pretty amazing and all, I just don't understand how they used this to help design concepts for Breath of the Wild. Like they needed a 2D version of Link shooting fire arrows at trees to get the idea down for Link in 3D to do that? That sounds like it would limit what could be done in the 3D version going about it that way.
They can use the same scripting to test game logic in a simplified environment. Fire propagation and logs floating in water and whatnot can all be represented in a simplified form to make sure it follows appropriate logic. It's just a fancy grey box environment
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,500
Apparently the idea was to kinda go back to Zelda 1 and re-envision that game. From that perspective it makes sense to build a Zelda 1-alike to try out different new things and how they would fit into the concept. 2D stuff is much easier to build and iterate than building and redesigning a 3D prototype all the time.

So I guess, this is assuming that they didn't even have the BotW game engine built yet? One would think still that putting these ideas in a 3 dimensional world would give them more proof of concept though. Like why not try these out in an Ocarina of Time, style environment/engine instead?
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
So I guess, this is assuming that they didn't even have the BotW game engine built yet? One would think still that putting these ideas in a 3 dimensional world would give them more proof of concept though. Like why not try these out in an Ocarina of Time, style environment/engine instead?
it takes a lot more effort/resources to prototype ideas like the ones they were experimenting with in a 3D environment when their 2D test bed could be adjusted more easily.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,500

They can use the same scripting to test game logic in a simplified environment. Fire propagation and logs floating in water and whatnot can all be represented in a simplified form to make sure it follows appropriate logic. It's just a fancy grey box environment

🤷‍♂️ Maybe that's why I'm not a creative game dev haha. I just can't imagine why it wouldn't be easier to test these ideas in engine versus building a Zelda maker to do so.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
🤷‍♂️ Maybe that's why I'm not a creative game dev haha. I just can't imagine why it wouldn't be easier to test these ideas in engine versus building a Zelda maker to do so.
they'd happen concurrently. the 2D representation is probably much earlier in the development process while the engine is being built to support the concepts. if the concept doesn't work, the engine might need altering, which would be more expenses
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,874
USA
🤷‍♂️ Maybe that's why I'm not a creative game dev haha. I just can't imagine why it wouldn't be easier to test these ideas in engine versus building a Zelda maker to do so.
You need to bake in the underlying engine and mechanics to build a 'maker' tool on top of it. If your goal is to toy with the engine and mechanics for a tech demo... then you're doing extra work for no reason to build such a tool. A maker tool is something that lets designers iterate and create a lot of in-engine gameplay easily and often without even needing to know how to code much. It just fulfills a different purpose.
 

Suedemaker

Linked the Fire
Member
Jun 4, 2019
1,776
Pretty sure it was more of a concept test than a full game.

However, it would be interesting to see the next 2d Zelda adapt some of BOTW's systemic interactions and open-ended exploration to the top down Zelda formula.
Like....Noita but also Zelda II. Tightening up Noita's gameplay and concept in order to fit into the Zelda universe and the open world nature of Zelda II with the side-scrolling dungeons (or not...I just love that game).

I'm in. 100%
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,607
Brazil
Why has this not become Zelda Maker yet?

because a zelda maker would be a pain in the ass

you know how you go in a mario maker level just to find that to win the 2 minute stage you have to get a single door right or else you are soft locked ?
picture this but after more than 15 minutes in a dungeon
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
because a zelda maker would be a pain in the ass

you know how you go in a mario maker level just to find that to win the 2 minute stage you have to get a single door right or else you are soft locked ?
picture this but after more than 15 minutes in a dungeon
And somehow, someway, the online would be flooded with trap dungeons and Kaizo-level impossible challenges that are just meant to troll.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,474
Spain
Designing a dungeon is radically different from designing a platformer level. They are not interchangeable experiences.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,585
Honestly, I think it'd be easier to design a framework for players to design a dungeon in than people would expect. Has anyone ever watched an episode of Mark Brown's Boss Keys series? He manages to break down how dungeons are designed in Zelda into fairly understandable flow charts and I think a hypothetical Zelda Dungeon Maker would be able to use something like that to help visualize the layout as you lay down elements.

Like, alright, so for each locked door you need to have at least one key in an accessible area. Elements like cracked walls or eyes that can only be opened using arrows should follow the same logic of having the requisite item inside the explorable area. It shouldn't be too hard to create a system that does these checks and prevents the designer from creating an unsolvable dungeon. I think it'd be hard, yeah, but it shouldn't be impossible.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Honestly, I think it'd be easier to design a framework for players to design a dungeon in than people would expect. Has anyone ever watched an episode of Mark Brown's Boss Keys series? He manages to break down how dungeons are designed in Zelda into fairly understandable flow charts and I think a hypothetical Zelda Dungeon Maker would be able to use something like that to help visualize the layout as you lay down elements.

Like, alright, so for each locked door you need to have at least one key in an accessible area. Elements like cracked walls or eyes that can only be opened using arrows should follow the same logic of having the requisite item inside the explorable area. It shouldn't be too hard to create a system that does these checks and prevents the designer from creating an unsolvable dungeon. I think it'd be hard, yeah, but it shouldn't be impossible.
understanding the concepts isn't enough to make a good level. people struggle to make a good simple Mario level. a zelda dungeon is a different level of complexity.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,293
I understand the cons/problems a Zelda Dungeon Maker game would have... But if they were ok enough with how awful the user experience and discoverability was with Mario Maker 1 to then make a sequel that's even worse in those two regards, nothing should be off the table.