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moonknight93

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
509
Putting up walls to keep the poor and starving out so that we in rich countries can live in luxury should be unthinkable, it's just as bad as the rich in our own countries trying to lock themselves away from society.

90k people entered Italy in 2017, of which only a small percentage has actually right to claim asylum. That is not sustainable. There's a point where ideology matches reality, and reality is that our countries don't have infinite resources. Another reality, to stay in topic, is that immigrants don't have the right to vote. If you neglect the lower classes in favour of the rights of non-citizens, you don't get votes. Cause sure as hell the wealthier classes aren't going to vote for leftist parties any time soon.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,974
Europe has a real immigration problem that Americans can't begin to understand, I'm not surprised by this at all
The immigration problem is exaggerated, but the biggest problem is disinformation:

- False WMD intel that pushed the US into two disastrous wars
- The ambiguity and denial of climate change, something that provoked Syrian rebellion and retaliation, among myriad others
- Putin, Trump, Brexit, and other far-right geopolitical shifts helped by broadcast and internet propaganda
- Misleading or baseless speculation about immigrant crime

In every case, democratic leaders and figureheads are simply not doing enough to amplify truth and reality, because they're too distracted by winning elections with the help of special interests.

Something very, very bad is going to come of all of this, unless a new wave of enlightenment can take root.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
The immigration problem is exaggerated, but the biggest problem is disinformation:

- False WMD intel that pushed the US into two disastrous wars
- The ambiguity and denial of climate change, something that provoked Syrian rebellion and retaliation, among myriad others
- Putin, Trump, Brexit, and other far-right geopolitical shifts helped by broadcast and internet propaganda
- Misleading or baseless speculation about immigrant crime

In every case, democratic leaders and figureheads are simply not doing enough to amplify truth and reality, because they're too distracted by winning elections with the help of special interests.

Something very, very bad is going to come of all of this, unless a new wave of enlightenment can take root.

The immigration "problem" may be exaggerated, but the problems immigration brings with it aren't - these are largely homogenous countries taking hundreds of thousands of new immigrants that don't speak the language and by and large aren't immediately employable - Germany alone took in over a million in one year, a country with less than one-fourth the population of the US. Like I said earlier in the thread, we haven't even gotten over our aversion to our Eastern neighbors, there is no way this was going to go smoothly. People are easily misled, yes, but we simply aren't equipped to take in millions of refugees a year.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,887
London
Aversion to foreigners is a human trait, not just a European one. Humans are sadly extremely tribal and tend to try to stick to their own. So basically migrants will be hated by the locals and migrants will also not integrate which is a sad situation. Until we can evolve beyond our current mentality this problem will exist forever. It sucks because I want people in poor countries to have good lives but rich countries can't take in the whole population of poor countries no matter how much I would want to.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,364
is proof of just HOW GOOD their messaging has become.

Yes, because they can say anything with no basis in truth and people will lap it up, as long as they have someone to blame.

The average human is a damn moron who would cut off an arm and a leg if it meant all their neighbours had to lose both arms and legs, so they could feel superior.

Yes recent politics has left me very jaded.
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Hungary will ensure they veto any move to block Poland's voting rights, and Poland is frankly too valuable to the future of the EU to ever consider isolating it completely. Regardless, your post has cheered me a little, and I was as surprised as everyone else when they reshuffled the cabinet, though I feel the tone really hasn't changed all that much. I hope the elections in 2019 are still fair.

Can't wait to visit sometime soon though!
Orban will fuck Poland over without any problem if it benefits him :) Hungary didn't even vote against activating article 7 procedure. Heck, supposedly Orban promised Kaczynski personally that he wouldn't vote for Tusk last year and still did it :D
And yeah, I do think complete polexit isn't going to happen, but the "EU of two-speeds" seems more and more likely. And I don't think there will even be sanctions directly. But we'll likely get screwed royally in next budget negotiations.
And yeah..the tone of goverment hasn't changed. They thought replacing few people would somehow fool the rest of the world. All the decisions are still made by the same man, all the damaging laws still passed. Just becqause prime minister can speak english doesn't change anything.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The immigration problem is exaggerated, but the biggest problem is disinformation:

- False WMD intel that pushed the US into two disastrous wars
- The ambiguity and denial of climate change, something that provoked Syrian rebellion and retaliation, among myriad others
- Putin, Trump, Brexit, and other far-right geopolitical shifts helped by broadcast and internet propaganda
- Misleading or baseless speculation about immigrant crime

In every case, democratic leaders and figureheads are simply not doing enough to amplify truth and reality, because they're too distracted by winning elections with the help of special interests.

Something very, very bad is going to come of all of this, unless a new wave of enlightenment can take root.
*Iraq was due to the fake WMD stuff. Afghanistan wasn't and likely would have happened under virtually any US admin under the circumstances.

Otherwise, yeah, its a big problem and its not getting better.
 

Pulp

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,023
A new wave? If the old one was the Age of Enlightenment Europe, then that would be a problem. As you could argue that the consequence of that, plus the Industrial Revolution, was the World Wars.
I would rather say that the Great War was a result of diplomacy gone wrong and the WWII was a consequence of the outcome of the Great War. The Age of Enlightenment started way back in 1688, and there is a lot of time between then and 1914.

On topic I would say that there is a lot of uncertainty going on in Europe right now. The relations between Russia and NATO are not great. The immigration wave that has been the last few years. There is a very real skepticism towards what the EU i supposed to be etc.
 

The_hypocrite

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,953
Flyover State
The answer is to abandon neoliberalism and stop gaslighting the population. Capitalism is the problem.

If left parties can only offer mild amelioration of people's material hardships combined with wishy washy, contingent, compromised versions of social progressivism, they're going to keep losing.

The Right knows what the problem is (inequality and the perversion of political processes by the ultra rich) but they tell people "it's the minorities' fault" and it gets angry/stupid/cruel people to vote for them.

The liberals also know what the problem is but they tell people "actually the system is very good and working as intended and we just need to manage it a little better and have a firm hand on the tiller and everything will work out," and nobody buys it.

The left needs to be engaging in intersectional, antiracist, feminist, pro-LGBT, environmentalist, and unapologetically anticapitalist messaging. They need to acknowledge the challenges posed by wealth concentration, inequality, money in politics, automation, economic alienation, social atomization, and imperialism.

A lot of people on this board think that left wing parties need to inch rightward in order to win over reactionary voters. Well, I say fuck that.

A lot of other people think we need pro corporate business friendly neoliberal technocrats with a veneer of social progressivism. I hope that the recent revelations about Hillary Clinton (and her loss in 2016) help to discredit that idea.

I agree. Kill the ideology. The left must go full materialism.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
The right has it easy, just point at all the problems and lie about having a solution. Hard for any politician with a shred of ethics to match that, especially one from a party that has governed before and of course did not produce any miracles. Helps that these days social media makes spreading propaganda super easy. The twin disasters of Brexit and Trump were a setback for the far right but evidently not enough, we'll see them taking root elsewhere and the only hope is that the nuclear world order prevents them from starting any wars so their countries will eventually collapse from their crappy policies.

The left could go full far left and just pretend to have solutions for everything but that facade would fall sooner or later once they get elected and fail to deliver on their outlandish claims. Plus depending on the type of far left they'll just destroy democracy too. See the mess in Venezuela for an example.

90k people entered Italy in 2017, of which only a small percentage has actually right to claim asylum. That is not sustainable. There's a point where ideology matches reality, and reality is that our countries don't have infinite resources. Another reality, to stay in topic, is that immigrants don't have the right to vote. If you neglect the lower classes in favour of the rights of non-citizens, you don't get votes. Cause sure as hell the wealthier classes aren't going to vote for leftist parties any time soon.

And nobody in mainstream politics is saying those people without a right to asylum shouldn't be deported. Problem with a sea border is that you can't close it, once they're close enough to your coast they're your problem. You gotta collect them, check which ones have a right to stay and then send back the ones that don't. That process takes time. The far right solutions I've seen are "ignore their right to asylum and send everybody back" and "just murder anyone who attempts to cross". Plus there's a lot of political capital to be made by claiming that all problems are caused by immigrants, even when they're caused by shitty government policies (see e.g. Brexit).

I would rather say that the Great War was a result of diplomacy gone wrong

It was more a matter of 19th century understanding of war meeting 20th century technology. Before WW1 it was common to casually go to war over any perceived wrongs. But 20th century technology turned wars from relatively quick affairs into an endless meatgrinder. Hence after WW1 the nations agreed that war should no longer be "an extension of diplomacy by other means" but a horrible crime that must be avoided at all cost.
 
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moonknight93

Banned
Nov 29, 2017
509
And nobody in mainstream politics is saying those people without a right to asylum shouldn't be deported. Problem with a sea border is that you can't close it, once they're close enough to your coast they're your problem. You gotta collect them, check which ones have a right to stay and then send back the ones that don't. That process takes time. The far right solutions I've seen are "ignore their right to asylum and send everybody back" and "just murder anyone who attempts to cross". Plus there's a lot of political capital to be made by claiming that all problems are caused by immigrants, even when they're caused by shitty government policies (see e.g. Brexit).

Problem is that you can't send back the people who have no right to asylum, because sometimes their countries don't accept them back, sometimes they have no papers, so you don't know where they came from, sometimes they disappear, etc...

Another crucial point, is that they never get close enough to Italy. They are rescued in Libyan waters and brought to Italy.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
What left? The left is dead, split between a majority of wannabe liberals and actual working class parties. This is all on the liberal centrists that took power for almost 2 decades straight. They decide and control the big narrative while competing on that front with the populist right.

The left couldn't even win after 2008, a big failure of the financial system.

I still find it hilarious that Putin got away with the Ukraine invasion.

Noone, nobody, at all, is talking about what is going on down there, this election stuff is just sad, but still:

https://www.unian.info/war
EU got away with the pro-EU coup, it's geopolitics.
 

Deleted member 33082

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 14, 2017
355
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/27/czech-republic-far-right-president-reelected
This guy is anti EU and pro Russia (Openly so, wants to leave NATO and the EU via referendum)..
Well one can only hope.

All these Eastern EU countries, receiving billions in funds from the EU, having the opportunity to freely move to richer countries to look for a better life, without fail are voting for anti-EU fascists and refusing to welcome their share of refugees.

Let me them re-join Russia and see how they like it.
 

econ

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
5
The left needs to be engaging in intersectional, antiracist, feminist, pro-LGBT, environmentalist, and unapologetically anticapitalist messaging. They need to acknowledge the challenges posed by wealth concentration, inequality, money in politics, automation, economic alienation, social atomization, and imperialism.

A lot of people on this board think that left wing parties need to inch rightward in order to win over reactionary voters. Well, I say fuck that.

I think that you are mistaken. The left is focused nowadays on anti-racism, pro-LGTB issues, etc. as you want them to. But let me ask you something: of which use is focusing on pro-LGBT rights when your country already lets LGBT people marry and adopt children? I'm telling you this because there are already many right wing leaders that are LGTB already in many European countries. And stats say that in some countries homosexual voters are majority right wingers.
Environmentalist? I don't disagree with you, but if Angela Merkel and other parties already are focused on green energy, again, that's of no use.
Antiracist? Well, racism is a public offence in most countries. It's not legal to be openly racist in most of Europe.
And... anticapitalist? After the fall of the USSR and the rise of China ditching state-capitalism ("communism") that won't get you too far.

Europeans see Europe being self-complacent. Take a look at the UK or France. Most of their anger and the source of Brexit and the rise of the Front National mostly come from this question and similar ones: "how is it possible that a country such as South Korea as almost reached our levels? No offence to South Korea, they work hard and deserve it, but how is it possible for us to be falling behind?". In the case of France with a minimum wage of almost 1900$ monthly (after tax) for 35h workweeks, with a month of paid vacations, great public healthcare, public education and public transportation included, trying to sell them more socialism is not going to work. Is not that they don't want it. They'd love 2500$ monthly paid as minimum wage for 30h workweeks, but they know that that's why they are falling behind.

Most people are patriotic and nationalistic. They don't want to fall behind. They see China growing at 7% yoy, they see the material living standards of Americans, and to them the left is only selling more self-complacency.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,887
London
All these things make Europe a good place to live. You want to sink down to China's level? And not have a social safety net? Because copying them will inevitably result in the destruction of social security. And people in China are desperately wanting to come to Europe. Why do you think so many of them want to study abroad.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,210
What left? The left is dead, split between a majority of wannabe liberals and actual working class parties. This is all on the liberal centrists that took power for almost 2 decades straight. They decide and control the big narrative while competing on that front with the populist right.

The left couldn't even win after 2008, a big failure of the financial system.


EU got away with the pro-EU coup, it's geopolitics.
Last time I checked, the EU didn't annex parts of Ukraine. That's a terribly transparent false equivalency.
 

necrosis

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
847
The problem is that it's racism triggering these things. Populism is majoritarian and rural, and the majoritarian part is the problem here.

If someone's primary rationale for casting a vote is xenophobia or racism, no amount of messaging is going to flip them.

the problem here is that racial tensions are intentionally stirred up to distract from the failings of capitalism, e.g. unemployed whites in the united states being told that their jobs were "stolen" by mexicans and the chinese

obviously the destruction of systemic racism is easier said than done, but it IS created artificially and -- as such -- can be dismantled with time, education, and effort
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
the problem here is that racial tensions are intentionally stirred up to distract from the failings of capitalism, e.g. unemployed whites in the united states being told that their jobs were "stolen" by mexicans and the chinese

obviously the destruction of systemic racism is easier said than done, but it IS created artificially and -- as such -- can be dismantled with time, education, and effort
It's not though. If you think tribal tensions are the result of capitalism...
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
The left is also supposed to champion human rights and solidarity with the oppressed and suffering masses in all countries, not just their own. That's why respecting the right to asylum should not even be a question for the left. Putting up walls to keep the poor and starving out so that we in rich countries can live in luxury should be unthinkable, it's just as bad as the rich in our own countries trying to lock themselves away from society.

If we in the European left lose by staying true to our own ideals it's only because our populations were much more selfish, racist and heartless than we could ever believe possible, and we all deserve whatever hell that will lead to.
+1

There is no moral it ethical reason why being born some where allows you to hoard wealth. Just self interest.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
Problem is that you can't send back the people who have no right to asylum, because sometimes their countries don't accept them back, sometimes they have no papers, so you don't know where they came from, sometimes they disappear, etc...

I don't see a solution to that outside of mass murder though.

Another crucial point, is that they never get close enough to Italy. They are rescued in Libyan waters and brought to Italy.

I think that has already been heavily reduced. Though is there any way for an asylum seeker to file an application before physically entering the EU?
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
The answer is to abandon neoliberalism and stop gaslighting the population. Capitalism is the problem.

If left parties can only offer mild amelioration of people's material hardships combined with wishy washy, contingent, compromised versions of social progressivism, they're going to keep losing.

The Right knows what the problem is (inequality and the perversion of political processes by the ultra rich) but they tell people "it's the minorities' fault" and it gets angry/stupid/cruel people to vote for them.

The liberals also know what the problem is but they tell people "actually the system is very good and working as intended and we just need to manage it a little better and have a firm hand on the tiller and everything will work out," and nobody buys it.

The left needs to be engaging in intersectional, antiracist, feminist, pro-LGBT, environmentalist, and unapologetically anticapitalist messaging. They need to acknowledge the challenges posed by wealth concentration, inequality, money in politics, automation, economic alienation, social atomization, and imperialism.

A lot of people on this board think that left wing parties need to inch rightward in order to win over reactionary voters. Well, I say fuck that.

A lot of other people think we need pro corporate business friendly neoliberal technocrats with a veneer of social progressivism. I hope that the recent revelations about Hillary Clinton (and her loss in 2016) help to discredit that idea.
Agree 100%

Not only this but they need to actually call the media and politicians out on their lies and shit. None of this 'we have to work with the system/respect the traditions of politics' bullshit.

The right don't play by any rules other then do what you can to look/sound good regardless if they believe it or its possible.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
I think I've more or less resigned to the sad reality that the next two decades or so are going to see a massive worldwide cleave to the right, which will probably lead to twenty more years or intense strife to break free from it, if a possibility at that point to even do so with the kind of powers and technology that is being developed, and if civilization is even still sustainable by that point. It depresses me, and most likely I think I'll kill myself within the next five or so years, maybe soon depending on where I end up. I have more or less made peace with that fact, I think.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Don't read the news so much, anything huge happens you'll know it, good to unplug and ignore the news cycle. Concentrate on other things, hobbies, friends, work. Enjoy life.
 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
The problem is that it's racism triggering these things. Populism is majoritarian and rural, and the majoritarian part is the problem here.

If someone's primary rationale for casting a vote is xenophobia or racism, no amount of messaging is going to flip them.
"Populism" is economically liberal (well, for the majority at least) and socially conservative. The homophobia, xenophobia is built in. It's why these parties are contiuously built on an unholy alliance of big business and rural social conservatives.

The reason this is getting worse in Europe is because they're able to leverage the refugee issues to their advantage. They got a super easy target.
A bit of an off-topic aside to point out that populism is just a way of doing politics, not an ideology. And so populism is not necessarily liberal or conservative economically or socially, there's always been populist movements of all sorts across time and space.
 

PillarEN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,118
Thanks, Putin.

Are there any polls to indicate if the Czech population wants to get out of EU or NATO?
Eh, please no referendum. That would not be good for us haha. And right now it would probably end up like Brexit.
Long story short Zeman was able to tap into the fears of the population like he did last time. It works rather nicely. Immigration is a moot point here (what are there like 3 illegal immigrants? It's not like they dream of coming to the CZ anyways), but he was able to still make it a key one. "No to immigration and Drahos". Boom there is your marketing. Of course as you may have guessed it's effective. Extremely similar to when his team's tactic was to attack the previous challenger with "he's gonna return land to the Germans". It's a sign of the times, this election. Quite a downer, yet I'm optimistic that things will shift again. And if they don't? Well ho boy it's time to pack it up again like it's the 50s.
 
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OP
OP
Dehnus

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Well one can only hope.

All these Eastern EU countries, receiving billions in funds from the EU, having the opportunity to freely move to richer countries to look for a better life, without fail are voting for anti-EU fascists and refusing to welcome their share of refugees.

Let me them re-join Russia and see how they like it.
Sorry for the late replies, been extremely busy in RL:
But yeah, I've also noticed that. Like in Poland at least they are anti Russia and say, albeit very hypocritical as it is mostly for Polish workers abroad, to wish for open borders with the EU member states. But in the Czech republic the conservative right populist actively seem to court Russia, which is strange, do they really wish to go back to Russian rule? I mean thanks to those Germans and their cheating VW, Skoda actually is a good brand now, under Soviet Russia Skoda was total shit. And that is only one example of many.

Eh, please no referendum. That would not be good for us haha. And right now it would probably end up like Brexit.
Long story short Zeman was able to tap into the fears of the population like he did last time. It works rather nicely. Immigration is a moot point here (what are there like 3 illegal immigrants? It's not like they dream of coming to the CZ anyways), but he was able to still make it a key one. "No to immigration and Drahos". Boom there is your marketing. Of course as you may have guessed it's effective. Extremely similar to when his team's tactic was to attack the previous challenger with "he's gonna return land to the Germans". It's a sign of the times, this election. Quite a downer, yet I'm optimistic that things will shift again. And if they don't? Well ho boy it's time to pack it up again like it's the 50s.

But thanks to the Germans their pride and joy, Skoda, actually means something again. So how come Czechs hate Germany still? I mean why join the EU then if you hate your fellow member states? Nobody made them, it was their own decision. Take us Norwegians, it's our own choice not to be a member, and yes that fucks us over from time to time and sometimes it is advantageous as well. Typical scapegoating as usual it seems.

It's not though. If you think tribal tensions are the result of capitalism...
It's not tribal tensions, yes Racism is endemic, but the current wave of it is certainly fanned by people that use it to gain riches, power or both. They are using a dangerous tool and are working with actual NAZIs/Fascists or copying their talking points, and sometimes don't even realize it.

I think that you are mistaken. The left is focused nowadays on anti-racism, pro-LGTB issues, etc. as you want them to. But let me ask you something: of which use is focusing on pro-LGBT rights when your country already lets LGBT people marry and adopt children? I'm telling you this because there are already many right wing leaders that are LGTB already in many European countries. And stats say that in some countries homosexual voters are majority right wingers.
Environmentalist? I don't disagree with you, but if Angela Merkel and other parties already are focused on green energy, again, that's of no use.
Antiracist? Well, racism is a public offence in most countries. It's not legal to be openly racist in most of Europe.
And... anticapitalist? After the fall of the USSR and the rise of China ditching state-capitalism ("communism") that won't get you too far.

Europeans see Europe being self-complacent. Take a look at the UK or France. Most of their anger and the source of Brexit and the rise of the Front National mostly come from this question and similar ones: "how is it possible that a country such as South Korea as almost reached our levels? No offence to South Korea, they work hard and deserve it, but how is it possible for us to be falling behind?". In the case of France with a minimum wage of almost 1900$ monthly (after tax) for 35h workweeks, with a month of paid vacations, great public healthcare, public education and public transportation included, trying to sell them more socialism is not going to work. Is not that they don't want it. They'd love 2500$ monthly paid as minimum wage for 30h workweeks, but they know that that's why they are falling behind.

Most people are patriotic and nationalistic. They don't want to fall behind. They see China growing at 7% yoy, they see the material living standards of Americans, and to them the left is only selling more self-complacency.
A bit bullshit though, I know from friends in the Netherlands that the minimum wage is not $1900 after tax, far from it even. They also have to pay their own health insurance and have 40 hour work weeks. France might be different, but the same doesn't apply to all countries in Europe. You are painting with a gigantic brush, yet cherry picked your examples. I mean your brush is European sized, and your examples member state sized. Better would be to look at what is the average income, the averages costs in healthcare, schooling and transportation, etc. Also: Which person says that "How can South Korea almost reach our levels" around here. Samsung is one of the most popular brands to buy and in General Korea is seen as a modern state like Japan. So I don't know who you talk to, but I know of nobody that is jealous of South Korea. It mostly is aimed at people that have nothing, like African states that are poisoned by the likes of Shell for oil. On top of that they get hatred from these populist voters that "they are lazy! and want to go to Europe to abuse our system.They don't want either, these people just want companies like Shell to stop poisoning their farmlands.
 
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PillarEN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,118
But thanks to the Germans their pride and joy, Skoda, actually means something again. So how come Czechs hate Germany still? I mean why join the EU then if you hate your fellow member states? Nobody made them, it was their own decision. Take us Norwegians, it's our own choice not to be a member, and yes that fucks us over from time to time and sometimes it is advantageous as well. Typical scapegoating as usual it seems.
Heh, well that sentiment goes back to the pre WW2 annexation of the Sudetenland. "Oh shit oh shit the Germans are gonna take overrrrr!" Obviously nothing ore than a quality smear of Karel Schwarzenberg.
By the way, is Skoda owned by India or someone else? It's not technically a Czech company anymore.
EDIT: derp. Yeah part of Volkswagen
 
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Dehnus

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Simple, embrace the same stance. It makes no sense to take large numbers of refugees. It's bad for host country and also makes no sense when it comes to himanitarian efforts. Not to mention those people don't want to go to eastern europe anyway and would have terrible lives here. Mandatory mechanism was pure idiocy to begin with. And it's not like any big eastern european party, even the liberal ones, supported it anyway. At most some wanted to take petite ammount on temporary basis as a sign of good faith. Nobody wants western-EU styled multiculturalism.
There's no real place for real "left" in eastern europe anyway. Communism is as bad as nazism to us and everything that has even a whif of it will be always doomed to failure. And western-styled feminism and social justice just seems utterly bizzare and often comical.

What eastern europe needs is centric goverments. Pro-european, pro free market and pro-democracy, slowly stretching out social rights, but also not allowing big european countries to walk all over them. And this is what most of eastern europe actually is. Czechia might flirt with populism, but the actual country is run very liberarly. Abortion is legal, so is weed (technically it's not, but owning it has been decriminalised) and church has very little to say.

Poland was centrist and rational too and this is why it was exploding economically and gaining way bigger influence in EU than it deserved before it succumbed to populism.
At this point the only countries that are problematic with the region are Hungary and Poland. And it's not because they don't want to take migrants from Africa and Middle East, but because they are going authoritarian route.
Okay, so you don't want western-eu styled goverments and social rights.... but do want to be in the EU? Why not get the fuck out then? Sorry to be so harsh, but to me that is playing with my life as a gay man, just so you can have your "as it always was int he past" view were there are no gay people (as they are hiding). What's the point of joining the EU if you cannot embrace it's human rights charter. Maybe Russia was a better match for you then.

Heh, well that sentiment goes back to the pre WW2 annexation of the Sudetenland. "Oh shit oh shit the Germans are gonna take overrrrr!" Obviously nothing ore than a quality smear of Karel Schwarzenberg.
By the way, is Skoda owned by India or someone else? It's not technically a Czech company anymore.
Offtopic:Skoda is a whole owned VW brand, you mean the other Skoda that makes tanks and trucks (and busses and etc);).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_Auto Skoda Auto is VW
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_Transportation Skoda Transportation, who'se owner is "situated" in the Netherlands (but that is a Tax Haven country, so the actual owners might be located somewhere else). The previous owner was "secret" ;) before they sold it to the current one :P.
 
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KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Okay, so you don't want western-eu styled goverments and social rights.... but do want to be in the EU? Why not get the fuck out then? Sorry to be so harsh, but to me that is playing with my life as a gay man, just so you can have your "as it always was int he past" view were there are no gay people (as they are hiding). What's the point of joining the EU if you cannot embrace it's human rights charter. Maybe Russia was a better match for you then.
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Why? Homosexuality isn't illegal in any eastern european countries that are part of EU. So I don't know what you're talking about.
 
OP
OP
Dehnus

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Why? Homosexuality isn't illegal in any eastern european countries that are part of EU. So I don't know what you're talking about.
Please, might not be illegal (more due to EU member states pushing for it than through people in Eastern Europe actually allowing for it), but homosexuals, Transgender, Lesbians and their ilk get beaten up and nothing is done against it. You know that as well as I do. Stop playing the holier than thou card, we both know why you pointed this out, you want a homogeneous nation state and that's it. You forget that for instance Poland ALWAYS was Multi cultural and that current Roman Catholic Poland is something that it became AFTER the Second world war. Before that it had quite large populations of Jewish, Greek Orthodox and others. The only reason homosexuality is not "illegal" (and that in name only as violence against these groups is quite bad), is due to the EU.

For goodness sake man, about your "abortion" point, if it wasn't for the Dutch sending a ship there to help women with abortion Poland would have banned it outright ages ago. ANd then STILL my question stands: WHy the heck join the EU if you don't want an EU government? Maybe you should never have joined then and stayed under the Russian umbrella. I mean, you could very well have done a "Norway" like us, and just stayed out as well. So what's the point in joining?
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
This current wave of "alt-right" (to borrow a US term) wins is going to have huge effects on Europe, unfortunately many of them negative. Take a look at Hungary if you want to see the nationwide idiocy (in terms of ideologies) in practice after 8 years of uninterrupted pro-Russia, anti-EU, anti-Soros, pro-corruption, pro-discrimation and anti-freedom policies. You'd think that such examples would actually deter people, but thanks to the outrage and fake news apparently the majority perceive it as a positive thing. Yikes.
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
Please, might not be illegal (more due to EU member states pushing for it than through people in Eastern Europe actually allowing for it), but homosexuals, Transgender, Lesbians and their ilk get beaten up and nothing is done against it. You know that as well as I do. Stop playing the holier than thou card, we both know why you pointed this out, you want a homogeneous nation state and that's it. You forget that for instance Poland ALWAYS was Multi cultural and that current Roman Catholic Poland is something that it became AFTER the Second world war. Before that it had quite large populations of Jewish, Greek Orthodox and others. The only reason homosexuality is not "illegal" (and that in name only as violence against these groups is quite bad), is due to the EU.

For goodness sake man, about your "abortion" point, if it wasn't for the Dutch sending a ship there to help women with abortion Poland would have banned it outright ages ago. ANd then STILL my question stands: WHy the heck join the EU if you don't want an EU government? Maybe you should never have joined then and stayed under the Russian umbrella. I mean, you could very well have done a "Norway" like us, and just stayed out as well. So what's the point in joining?
There's no mass violence against LGBT people in Poland. This isn't Russia. Not to say the situation shouldn't be improved greatly, but your trying paint a picture of Poland as a place where gays are chased through streets by angry crowds and that'st plain wrong. Plus please, Poland isn't any worse than majority of western europe in 90s. We're just behind times, but the situation is improving, even under the ultra conservative goverment. We are getting gay mayors and parliment members and for the first time ever majority of society is pro-civil unions. Hopefully we will eventually catch up.

And this is Poland, the most conservative of eastern europe. Czech Republic in tolerance for LGBT beats even some western EU countries. What eastern europeans don't want is the social justice nonsense that's popular in western europe, they're not against actual social rights. And the reason we don't want mass migration from outside EU is because western europe has painfull shown that this doesn't work and our history is devoid of any colonalism, so we lack the white guilt that forced westerners to ignore the problems of migration and integration for so long.
Plus if you think not wanting mass migration from outside Europe is reason enough to be thrown out of EU then there won't be much of an union left, because this is a stance that's being adapted by more and more EU countries and soon anything outside it will be at best rare exception among the union.
And "EU goverment" that we accepted when joining was a body that coordinated actions of soverign nations, not a goverment rulling United States of Europe. And we;re not alone since there's no country, even in western europe where majority of society supports union this deep.
 
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Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Seeing prototypical social democrat Zeman branded as far-right/alt-right is amusing, if nothing else. He won because his opponent was weak, and because he toured the country speaking to people, and yes, because he is openly politically incorrect and against islamic immigration. People see the number of mass murders committed by islamists in western europe compared to the zero in Czechland and vote accordingly. Of course, Drahoš also claimed to be against islamic immigration, but it seems he was too much of an unknown quantity.
I actually did expect Zeman to narrowly lose though, since he got only 39% in first round, and all other candidates recommended to vote Drahoš. But I guess lot of Zeman voters stayed home during the first round.