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Zache

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,776
www.youtube.com

Kirby Right Back At Ya intro

The kirby right back at ya intro in english.Visit my site for more kirby and other games. :)http://hamsgames.webs.com

how can I help you king dedede

i need a monster to clubber that there kirby

still my canon dedede voice
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,915
Good luck getting the FCC to allow your cartoon to continue to air during prime kids television watching time with cigarettes in it post 1990.

Oh I didn't notice the Cartoon Network logo at the bottom right. I didn't know it was for a kids network. I thought it was just the way they did the english version for some reason.
 

TheAbsolution

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,389
Atlanta, GA
They lost Pokémon and the Yugioh lawsuit were certainly factors but what really killed them was the death of Saturday morning cartoon blocks. No syndicates money flowing in means bankruptcy is imminent.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
Wasn't there some big lawsuit with Konami regarding Yu-Gi-Oh royalties that 4Kids had to pay up on?

I could be hallucinating that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,775
Lots of reasons.
The Yu-Gi-Oh lawsuit being the biggest one. They purposely withheld royalties and that screwed them in the end. They're still technically alive as "4LIcensing Corp" but they're basically a shell now. All the Yu-Gi-Oh rights fell into the lap of Konami.
Losing the Pokemon license was another biggun. That definitely hurt them.
Their butchering of One Piece soured business relationships with Toei, who blacklisted them from having any of their properties ever again. Since Toei is massive, that was a huge hit.
 
OP
OP
Uzumaki Goku

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,254
Lots of reasons.
The Yu-Gi-Oh lawsuit being the biggest one. They purposely withheld royalties and that screwed them in the end. They're still technically alive as "4LIcensing Corp" but they're basically a shell now. All the Yu-Gi-Oh rights fell into the lap of Konami.
Losing the Pokemon license was another biggun. That definitely hurt them.
Their butchering of One Piece soured business relationships with Toei, who blacklisted them from having any of their properties ever again. Since Toei is massive, that was a huge hit.

Not to mention Peter Laird sold TMNT to Nickelodeon
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
Given that 4Kids never wanted One Piece in the first place I can't really blame them for what they did to it.
If you want to blame anyone, blame Toei.
 

BoosterDuck

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,681
imagine if One Piece had aired on Cable TV instead of saturday morning network blocks

it would probably still be alive in America
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
Wait, didn't they outbid Funimation for One Piece?
4Kids didn't want One Piece, they wanted Kinnikuman: The Second Generation that they turned into Ultimate Muscle. Toei though were desperate for One Piece to be a Pokemon style success in the west though so they forced 4Kids to buy the rights to One Piece as well to get Kinnikuman by locking them together.

4Kids were then left with the rights to One Piece that they never wanted due to knowing how much censorship it would need, but they had to do something with it to recoup the increased costs of getting what they did want.

I'd imagine that all the editing of One Piece had quite a cost in itself, not to mention the reputation damage they suffered because of it.
 

Oyashiro-Sama

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,607
XJN7WGq.png
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,775
Wait, didn't they outbid Funimation for One Piece?

The story these days is that 4Kids didn't want One Piece. They wanted Ojamajo Doremi and Pretty Cure, but Toei forced the series onto them because they were desperate to get it on TV. Obviously that didn't work out.

4Kids didn't want One Piece, they wanted Kinnikuman: The Second Generation that they turned into Ultimate Muscle. Toei though were desperate for One Piece to be a Pokemon style success in the west though so they forced 4Kids to buy the rights to One Piece as well to get Kinnikuman by locking them together.

That show too. I've also heard those girl shows were part of it.
 

Oldmario

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,145
Wasn't there some big lawsuit with Konami regarding Yu-Gi-Oh royalties that 4Kids had to pay up on?

I could be hallucinating that.
i saw a thread pop up on /a/ about 4kids the other day and someone mentioned that 4kids had withheld royalties from tvtokyo and whoever else was involved with the anime and when they found out they more or less launched a lawsuit against 4kids , i think in the end 4kids lost and were bought out by konami purely for the yu-gi-oh anime dubbing and slowly went from 4 K to some generic konami name kinda like how the remainder of kojima productions was renamed to konami dev 3 or something like that
 

Deleted member 5334

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
It's a long, long story.

Short answer, Al Kahn, there's CEO and President (as well as founder) did a lot of deals that resulted in many instances of the Japanese losing on money that they rightfully deserved. They also did or tried to do a loop whole, by only reporting the funds "they" earned from video sales and other aspects of revenue, rather than reporting the total sum and giving % of the earned total income (instead only giving the % they were guaranteed back to the Japanese what they purposely earned). There was also the whole fiasco that happened with Chaotic, where instead of allowing the IP to slowly grow and flourish and slowly release things over time, they did the LEVEL 5 thing and literally flooded the market with product, spending over Hundreds of Millions of dollars on it.

As you can guess, there was too much out there, people stopped buying it, and it put 4Kids deeply in the hole.

I'll need to note prior to this, 4Kids was absolutely hurt by the loss of Pokemon, but given some of their tactics and as we found out via the Lawsuit, they still owed the Japanese license, "The Pokemon Company", money even all those years later, it's no wonder The Pokemon Company did everything in their power to get 4Kids Entertainment out of the picture.

Afterwards, Al Kahn eventually "retired", and shortly after the whole TV Tokyo and ADK situation happened, almost as if the guy knew a storm was coming. Really what set off the lawsuit was TV Tokyo and ADK didn't terminate the contract properly, and instead just announced they were terminating (you have to file for a termination, and even the court even said had they done so, they'd been allowed to do so). While it would've likely resulted in a lawsuit either way, ultimately courts gave it to 4Kids on a technicality because of that, and TV Tokyo & ADK even had to pay damages as a result.

Anyways, despite winning the lawsuit, 4Kids was in an incredibly poor state, to the point they really couldn't run operations as normal. They ultimately initially bid of some major assets, such as Yu-Gi-Oh!, the CW block, and then once Konami and Saban agreed to do a joint bid, opted to sell off their Production studios to Konami, as well as give Saban additional titles (Chaotic, Sonic X, etc.,), which they had until the rights expired.

4Kids Production would then be renamed 4K Media, and the Yu-Gi-Oh! Licensing office would relocate to that building (for the record, I suspect the name was more of a coincidence. Konami had already established the name prior to anything going down, as it was intended to be the marketing company for Yu-Gi-Oh!, but once the whole sales assets and stuff came in, they opted to move base of operations for it in New York). Eventually Konami would just rename it to Konami Cross Media NY to better focus on non-Yu-Gi-Oh! titles that Konami owns (both internal and external licenses they represent).

As for 4Kids, they would be bought out and absorbed by another company, renamed 4Licensing. While initially they still held the titles for a couple things, their primary focus was sports gears. Eventually they filed for bankruptsy and then completely left the market.

...As for what Al Kahn is doing...

Here:


Originally was called CraneKahn, in their entire time since about 2012 or so, they've not put out anything they produced or dubbed/localized. And yes, for their dubbed content, they're still VERY MUCH doing their usual tactics per usual. Nothing has changed, at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Al Kahn is black listed from the Japanese industry, given everything that transpired, but hard to say.

Speaking of which, the guy presented a presentation at Tokyo Contents a couple years back.

It's uh... something:


There were some legit points made in there, but there was also some uh... questionable presentation and mentions as well.
 

thecouncil

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,333
They made the turtles go to space and nobody ever forgave them even after they let them go "back to the sewers".
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
So that story about 4Kids not wanting One Piece and being forced to take it on in a package deal is total bullshit btw and just the employees trying to save face. One Piece was one of the biggest series in Japan at that time and everyone wanted a bite at the apple, including Funimation who of course eventually picked it up. Toei hardly had to beg anyone to license the show and their licensing deal with Kinnikuman came years before they announced they had One Piece (around the same time they licensed Yugioh).

My understanding is the money men at 4Kids watched the first episode (which is much tamer than the rest of the series), assumes it was kid-friendly enough, knew it was popular and wanted in. 4Kids pursuing anime that were less suitable for kids than teens and adults was a common practice for them, they also tried licensing InuYasha, Naruto and Bleach back in the day because hey, they were popular in Japan. This line of thinking also got them saddled with Shaman King, which actually remained pretty well intact in its dub but was a bomb on Saturday mornings.

4Kids also had plans to stay truer to the Japanese version than they had for their other anime, even to the point of dubbing the original theme song and showing it off at trade shows, but allegedly Toei stepped in and demanded they localize it like everything else, as they figured that was 4Kids' special sauce. The truth was that 4Kids' biggest success stories, Pokémon and Yugioh were already very toyetic in nature and lent themselves well to selling the merchandise - they also had way more to do with Nintendo and Kids' WB! than anything on the production side of things. It's not like kids enjoyed these shows just because Satoshi was now Ash, or Jonouchi was now Joey.

There was also an uncut dub in the works, but it never saw the light of day. If their short-lived uncut releases for Yugioh and Shaman King (fly-by-night efforts with stilted translations and line delivery, poor ADR and "dubtitles") were any indicator of its quality it still wouldn't have held a candle to Funimation's dub, but it would have been a neat curiosity.

Needless to say 4Kids blew every opportunity they had with One Piece and Toei yanked the license out from under them. That alone probably didn't hurt them much (the feeling seemed to be mutual), but being blackballed by every other anime company, along with losing the Pokémon license and the Yugioh lawsuit was probably their death knell. They also had their license to Tokyo Mew Mew cut short due to problems similar to what they had with Toei, but that never got nearly as much attention compared to how badly they bungled up One Piece.

Source: being a hella nerdy teenager who cared way too much about this stuff and had contacts at 4Kids when all this was going down
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
I remember watching a Youtube video talking about the return of this underrated series.
It was an amazing idea and the online interaction was ingenuity at its finest. And the art on the cards was cool and so was the stories you could piece together. The whole "M'arillian Invasion" was a whole event of my childhood that almost no one currently on Earth cared about lol
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
So that story about 4Kids not wanting One Piece and being forced to take it on in a package deal is total bullshit btw and just the employees trying to save face. One Piece was one of the biggest series in Japan at that time and everyone wanted a bite at the apple, including Funimation who of course eventually picked it up. Toei hardly had to beg anyone to license the show and their licensing deal with Kinnikuman came years before they announced they had One Piece (around the same time they licensed Yugioh).

My understanding is the money men at 4Kids watched the first episode (which is much tamer than the rest of the series), assumes it was kid-friendly enough, knew it was popular and wanted in. 4Kids pursuing anime that were less suitable for kids than teens and adults was a common practice for them, they also tried licensing InuYasha, Naruto and Bleach back in the day because hey, they were popular in Japan. This line of thinking also got them saddled with Shaman King, which actually remained pretty well intact in its dub but was a bomb on Saturday mornings.

4Kids also had plans to stay truer to the Japanese version than they had for their other anime, even to the point of dubbing the original theme song and showing it off at trade shows, but allegedly Toei stepped in and demanded they localize it like everything else, as they figured that was 4Kids' special sauce. The truth was that 4Kids' biggest success stories, Pokémon and Yugioh were already very toyetic in nature and lent themselves well to selling the merchandise - they also had way more to do with Nintendo and Kids' WB! than anything on the production side of things. It's not like kids enjoyed these shows just because Satoshi was now Ash, or Jonouchi was now Joey.

There was also an uncut dub in the works, but it never saw the light of day. If their short-lived uncut releases for Yugioh and Shaman King (fly-by-night efforts with stilted translations and line delivery, poor ADR and "dubtitles") were any indicator of its quality it still wouldn't have held a candle to Funimation's dub, but it would have been a neat curiosity.

Needless to say 4Kids blew every opportunity they had with One Piece and Toei yanked the license out from under them. That alone probably didn't hurt them much (the feeling seemed to be mutual), but being blackballed by every other anime company, along with losing the Pokémon license and the Yugioh lawsuit was probably their death knell. They also had their license to Tokyo Mew Mew cut short due to problems similar to what they had with Toei, but that never got nearly as much attention compared to how badly they bungled up One Piece.

Source: being a hella nerdy teenager who cared way too much about this stuff and had contacts at 4Kids when all this was going down
Huh, every other source I've read has always confirmed the rights being bundled and 4Kids not wanting it in the first place.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,162
Anime licensing is amazing. It still amazes me that a real estate holding company has been holding onto the Macross license for all this time and just refuses to let it go.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,023
4kids was so bad they ruined the idea of English Dubs in people's minds for decades.

Everything a Japanese game announced with English Dub people associate it with 4kids quality.
 

TravoltaWatchesYou

Alt account
Banned
Aug 24, 2019
153
As for the smoking thing, you gotta realize that movies and tv shows for literal adults are dissuaded from showing characters smoke. How could a children's show ever get away with it in America?
 

Deleted member 5334

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
Huh, every other source I've read has always confirmed the rights being bundled and 4Kids not wanting it in the first place.

Here's what happened. The guy who mentioned it, believe it was on an interview at ANN, wasn't at 4Kids Entertainment when the licensing deal and everything went down. He assumed they picked it up with another title (like DoremI, as they were negotiating it around that time), but there was also the "It was a bundle deal with Shonen Jump" titles bit going around too (unsure if it was him or someone else), which was also equally bull crap, as multiple parties owned different shows (TV Tokyo & ADK jointly on Yu-Gi-Oh!, Shaman King I'm not 100% sure on, but could be another ADK/NAS and/or TV Tokyo license), and Toei Animation had full distribution rights to push One Piece. The only other party that could've arguably made deals with One Piece, would've been Fuji TV at this point, who is separate from the aforementioned parties, so it'd still wouldn't add up, either way.

Either way, one of the lead composers/music producers at 4Kids Entertainment, confirmed awhile back (think it was on his AMA?) that Al Kahn wanted it because of how much money it made in Japan. Reportedly there was concerns internally from 4Kids that it was a bad idea, due to the content and among other things, but Al Kahn got his way ultimately.

The thing we're still not exactly sure what happened is how exactly Toei Animation gave it to them, regardless. FUNimation Entertainment announced at an anime convention in mid-2003 they had the license, and then some point shortly after retracted the statement. So there was always a deal in place, but somehow Toei was able to ditch the deal and ultimately go with 4Kids. Why? We're not sure.

But yeah, as Aaron mentioned, reportedly 4Kids did want to do a faithful dub and everything, and from what it sounded like, Toei wanted something more like their other dubs. I think part of what happened is that Dragon Ball Z was incredibly successful with the localization it had, and 4Kids also had similar successes with similar localizations.

My friend, Sam, was constantly in contact with Toei Animation from late 2006, onwards. I still remember the one phone call he had with the Toei Animation at the time, when he was talking with the Representative on the phone, and apparently the guy was surprised people liked how the original version was, and the fact fans preferred the Japanese music, in particular blew the guys mind. So realistically, I'm like fairly certain Toei made all the calls to change the music in the dub, because they assumed that's what fans wanted.