So what's the better MMO these days? WoW or FFXIV?

WoW or FFXIV?

  • WoW

    Votes: 162 16.0%
  • FFXIV

    Votes: 851 84.0%

  • Total voters
    1,013

Lesath

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
793
I've played the beta, that's enough for me. I started WoW around BC launch, so no I haven't played a lot of vanilla. Does this not back up my point of it being a nostalgia driven thing?
I started just after the Gates of AQ opened, managing to get a Warlock to 60. You're absolutely right if you played a Paladin (can't speak for Shaman because I rolled Alliance). I remember being so frustrated by the time I got to STV (then a 30-40 zone) that I deleted my pally on the spot. Wanding was also a big part of Shadow Priest leveling. Feral Druid and Fury Warrior was more interesting, but nothing overly involved even compared to what they are now.

Anybody who thinks that there's more nuance to a Classic WoW rotation than BfA or even ARR FF14 is either ignorant or on something.
 

steviejd1

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,581
Lol I'm not sure what being resource starved early game in wow classic has anything to do with the conversation at hand...we are talking about if a game is going to be successful or not...never said or claimed you weren't a fan just pointed out (as you noted yourself) your knowledge of classic appears extremely limited likely due to your lack of experience lol just seems like you are upset that I am pointing out your strawman arguments.
Being resource starved means you are auto-attacking (like I said). Auto-attacking is boring. Boring gameplay is not fun. A game that is not fun will not hold attention for long.

I played the beta for long enough to get an idea of the gameplay loop and I didn't like it. I could go on about other reasons why I don't think it will be successful such as class balancing, how long it takes to level, how long it takes to get things done, how toxic the WoW fanbase can be, how it's more fun to watch than to play etc, etc.

I've played WoW on and off since BC, again like I said, so I have pre-Cata experience with the game. I'm sorry that I haven't played the beta for 100+ hours or played on private servers but I know how nostalgia drives this kind of thing.

No I am not upset, I just don't like something that you obviously do and think it will not be successful for long whereas you think it will be.

I started just after the Gates of AQ opened, managing to get a Warlock to 60. You're absolutely right if you played a Paladin (can't speak for Shaman because I rolled Alliance). I remember being so frustrated by the time I got to STV (then a 30-40 zone) that I deleted my pally on the spot. Wanding was also a big part of Shadow Priest leveling. Feral Druid and Fury Warrior was more interesting, but nothing overly involved even compared to what they are now.

Anybody who thinks that there's more nuance to a Classic WoW rotation than BfA or even ARR FF14 is either ignorant or on something.
Exactly. Sure I may have generalized things a bit because I was on my phone so couldn't really type much and for that I'm sorry. I've played enough and seen enough on Twitch streams to think that WoW from 2004 will not be the same in 2019. People are over-hyping Classic imo and I feel like at least some will be disappointed. What I personally want is a middle ground. For Blizzard to undo some of the poor decisions they have made but at the same time keep a lot of the modern day way of respecting people's time and patience.
 

Gankzymcfly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
Just to warn you, unless they do some extra class balancing you'll find yourself unwanted at max level. Take it from someone who was a Druid back on release in 2004.



WoW Classic does require either much more downtime or auto-attack to save resources because resources are more scarce and regenerate much slower. It's a pretty far cry from FFXIV or modern WoW. FFXIV I don't think I even bother turning on auto-attack most of the time due to constantly needing to use skills.
Being resource starved means you are auto-attacking (like I said). Auto-attacking is boring. Boring gameplay is not fun. A game that is not fun will not hold attention for long.

I played the beta for long enough to get an idea of the gameplay loop and I didn't like it. I could go on about other reasons why I don't think it will be successful such as class balancing, how long it takes to level, how long it takes to get things done, how toxic the WoW fanbase can be, how it's more fun to watch than to play etc, etc.

I've played WoW on and off since BC, again like I said, so I have pre-Cata experience with the game. I'm sorry that I haven't played the beta for 100+ hours or played on private servers but I know how nostalgia drives this kind of thing.

No I am not upset, I just don't like something that you obviously do and think it will not be successful for long whereas you think it will be.



Exactly. Sure I may have generalized things a bit because I was on my phone so couldn't really type much and for that I'm sorry. I've played enough and seen enough on Twitch streams to think that WoW from 2004 will not be the same in 2019. People are over-hyping Classic imo and I feel like at least some will be disappointed. What I personally want is a middle ground. For Blizzard to undo some of the poor decisions they have made but at the same time keep a lot of the modern day way of respecting people's time and patience.
That's not true at all, just because your resource starved early game in wow classic doesn't mean you inherently spend more time auto attacking...Infact some classes in vanilla literally never auto attack...mages make water and deal high dps, when leveling solo they have more then enough resources to be spamming their skill rotations and keeping their mana up(despite having the ability to auto attack if they wanted to)that's why they are popular AoE farmers. In raids the only circumstances where a mage would auto attack is if it were oom in a single encounter after having already evocated and used all its mana jems (meaning the encounter has already been going on for 5-10 min) and said encounter is coming down to wire...alternatively you may auto attack briefly to let your tank catch up to you on the threat meter but if your doing that it means you have a problem with your tank...In almost every circumstance for every class, simply auto attacking is less efficient then some other alternative....In 40 mans you rarely auto attack on any class..most classes have skill rotations and in some but not all circumstances those skill rotations include auto attacking for brief periods of time but even in those circumstances you have to be ready to pop your skills in reaction to what is happening...for example, tanks need to taunt immediately to prevent instant wipes when dps threat is too high, taunts need to not be on cooldown, gcd cant be interfering etc.

The auto attack is less something you need to do but more so something you go out of your way to do in order to min max your performance whether that be threat generation or your damage output while not pulling agro etc..... To sum up all that micromanagement and calculation to "you spend more time auto attacking in vanilla" is a miss characterization of what is actually taking place.
 

medinaria

Member
Oct 30, 2017
304
(perspective on my perspective: played wow starting in vanilla, got up to (but not past) m'uru in sunwell plateau during progression in bc, quit before ulduar in wotlk. on 14, did all 2.0 content progression at launch, did the last set of 3.0 savage raids, did the last set of 4.0 savage raids and will be doing 5.0 savage as well.)

  • the early leveling experience (prior to like level 52) in ff14 is just bad. the developers know it's bad, and said they're looking at it, but it's bad. everything feels very old and slow, and a lot of the quests are a slog. some of this was just how it was at the time (they put out new main scenario quests with every major patch, which feels nice when you're current with content, but feels completely overwhelming when you're not), some of it's a result of changes to classes. some classes (astrologian) don't even get their central mechanic until level 30 - prior to that, you're just sitting there playing "generic healer". I don't have an informed opinion on wow's early leveling, but it can't be worse.
  • I can guarantee with almost 100% certainty that the story in ff14 is miles ahead of the wow story. wow's story has never been good, but I can point to roughly five million posts spread across the internet about how wow's story is reliant on people doing inexplicably stupid things for no justifiable reason. also nathanos exists, and that's a really fun rabbit hole to fall down into. by contrast, the current expansion of ff14 falls solidly into the "probably (at least arguably) the best story an mmo has ever had" camp. the characters are far more complex in ways that actually make sense, and the game really imbues an mmo with the sense of traveling with a party that's been a staple of final fantasy games and jrpgs for decades.
  • the pvp in ff14 is garbage, by comparison to wow and just in general. if you're big on that sort of thing, stay away. that's all I have to say on that topic, except that I wish they'd stop devoting so many development resources to it and making new modes because it's butt.
  • the character customization in ff14 is fantastic! the character creator is pretty in-depth (not korean-mmo-level in-depth, but pretty good), and the glamour system is needlessly complicated but there's an incredible variety of armor pieces that you can use to really make your character how you want them to look. the developers have generally been very good about not just adding armor pieces or joke pieces, but things like casual clothing as well. in general, if you want your character to look a certain way, you can at least get close - and they keep adding more items, so it'll only get better. by contrast, in world of warcraft, I spent several months with a lightning rod strapped to my head. also, just purely from a graphics standpoint, ff14 looks phenomenal relative to wow. which isn't surprising, but it can really affect some people's ability to create a character that they really like. I, personally, can barely even remember what my character looked like - just a vaguely humanoid body shape and some ugly robes. also, this means that a lot of fights in ff14 just feel really impressive and awe-inspiring relative to wow fights, even the ones like deathwing.
  • building off the previous point, ff14 has a lot of systems that are a bit obtuse, but that also means that it has... a lot of systems. like, a lot. this can feel overwhelming sometimes, but it also means that you can almost always find something that you enjoy. crafting and gathering are very in-depth, and you can (and people do) play the game almost exclusively with those. similarly, the housing system could use a bit of work (it's overly reliant on glitches because they're a bit restrictive with what you're allowed to do), but there's some genuinely astonishing creations that people have made. there's minigames, there's triple triad, they literally just added mahjong because one of their coders felt like writing it... there's a million things to do. there's a breadth that really no other mmo has, and the game's more conducive to not giving a shit about combat than most.
  • the raids in ff14 are pretty fun, I think. there are some ups and downs for sure, mostly in terms of difficulty, but the fights are generally enjoyable to learn and to do. you're constantly reacting to mechanics and rarely feel like you're sitting there as a dps turret (as much as some classes might want to), there's a lot of active dodging and a lot of mechanics that everyone has to participate in. I don't necessarily know how wow raids are currently, but this is a huge improvement from the raids in burning crusade that I did. additionally, 14 has a pretty good variation in difficulty, with ex primals being reasonable and then the back half of most savage raids being somewhat challenging. as far as the combat goes, I personally think that max-level combat in ff14 is substantially better than wow combat, but that's mostly because I have not-so-fond memories of standing in one spot and mashing the fireball key until my fingers hurt
  • the music in ff14 might be the best ff soundtrack (front to back, not just by picking single songs) of all time. it's incredible. wow's music doesn't compare, because basically no game's music compares. there's an enormous breadth of styles and like 90% of them are total jams. shit's ridiculous.
too many words, but whatever. ff14's probably the best mmo I've ever played (it's solidly top-two along with guild wars 1, which is better than guild wars 2 will ever be, fight me), and the current expansion is legitimately the best the game has ever been. it's moved ff14 from "good for an mmo" into "a genuinely good entry in the final fantasy series", and the re-contextualization of the main antagonists in 5.0 has been seriously impressive storytelling. world of warcraft has better pvp, and probably a better early leveling experience, but I haven't heard someone be as excited about literally any content in world of warcraft as the collective ff14 community has been for this expansion. I know that, personally, there's nothing in wow that I played that has measured up. tldr: don't play wow unless you are big on pvp, play ff14, it's cool and good, if you don't have a lot of time or patience maybe hold off until yoshida says something about them removing all the stupid quests

anyway, thank you for coming to my ted talk
 

mothball

Member
Oct 27, 2017
83
FFXIV is in a better shape than WoW but I'd rather look Elsweyr

Elder Scrolls Online
is (IMHO) the best MMO right now.
I played it for a week and was enjoying it quite a bit, until I realized that I kept leveling and getting better gear but the damage numbers and enemy health always stayed the same. I didn't feel like I was getting stronger at all, and the entire world scaling to you removed any sense of danger that it might have had otherwise. Completely killed the game for me.


Anyway, I played WoW 2005-2014 and have been playing FFXIV for about three months. FFXIV is a much better game.
 

samurai1226

Member
Dec 11, 2017
115
Anybody who thinks that there's more nuance to a Classic WoW rotation than BfA or even ARR FF14 is either ignorant or on something.
Most classes surely had no complex rotations in Classic compared to modern wow. But the huge difference is the plain amount of utility abilities that makes every class feel unique in Classic. Best example is the shaman and the paladin. Managing which totems and blessing were the best in which situation was cool, now these things barely exist anymore. Or think about hybrid classes in Classic that brought a huge amount of utility powers to the table. Warrior stances, different utility stuff on each of the warlock demons, debuff enemies with lower armor or resistances, actually having differences between fighting magic, high armored or physical range enemies, etc.

There are tons of nice elemtens in Classic WoW that are in your rotation, but abilities that could make the difference in a close PvE (mabye not as much in Raids) and PvP. Playing a druid in battlegrounds was amazing back then because you had these insane amount of utilities you bring to the group (sprinting, stealth, fearie fire so enemies can't stealth, being a self healing tank as a bear, etc). Nowadays you are just a normal class like everyone else
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,649
O-H-I-O
the early leveling experience (prior to like level 52) in ff14 is just bad. the developers know it's bad, and said they're looking at it, but it's bad. everything feels very old and slow, and a lot of the quests are a slog. some of this was just how it was at the time (they put out new main scenario quests with every major patch, which feels nice when you're current with content, but feels completely overwhelming when you're not), some of it's a result of changes to classes. some classes (astrologian) don't even get their central mechanic until level 30 - prior to that, you're just sitting there playing "generic healer". I don't have an informed opinion on wow's early leveling, but it can't be worse.
This is so correct. I am trying to get into this game, but holy shit the leveling is so fucking bad. People say the story and everything gets better and I hope it does because at the moment it's just boring, a slog and not interesting. I have played WoW since Vanilla until well, last week and while the story in WoW isn't some top tier thing so far it still shits on what I have played of FF 14. I have no doubt that changes later but I just don't know if I can make myself get to that point lol.
 

Pillowtalk

Member
Oct 10, 2018
141
The question I'm more interested in is "which game has your preferred dungeon/raid gameplay?" Since questing and killing mobs out in the fields to level is not that great in most mmos you play. Classes and by extension skill rotations, the fun parts are usually explored more in dungeons/raids.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,215
The question I'm more interested in is "which game has your preferred dungeon/raid gameplay?" Since questing and killing mobs out in the fields to level is not that great in most mmos you play. Classes and by extension skill rotations, the fun parts are usually explored more in dungeons/raids.
I would say ff14, but havent been a fan of what blizzared has been doing with their raid encounter disgin since wod.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
672
The question I'm more interested in is "which game has your preferred dungeon/raid gameplay?" Since questing and killing mobs out in the fields to level is not that great in most mmos you play. Classes and by extension skill rotations, the fun parts are usually explored more in dungeons/raids.
I prefer XIV dungeons/raids. First I'll get out of the way that there are far fewer bosses in XIV. There are only 3 bosses per dungeon (I think 18-20 dungeons in the most recent expansion cycle), and a total of about 20 raid bosses for an entire expansion cycle, at two difficulties. The most recent expansion added 2 additional bosses at new highest difficulty. Dungeons are 4 player, raids are 8 player. I'll focus on talking about raid bosses, but a lot of this applies to dungeon bosses just to a lesser extent.

*edit* I also forgot to mention that there are 3 24-person raids per expansion. They are between LFR and Normal difficulty to compare to WoW, and include about 4 bosses per raid. Most of what I said here applies.

Each raid is just one boss basically, so you don't have to worry about wrangling a bunch of people for a long time, killing trash, or repeating content to get to the boss with the loot you need.

The theatrics of XIV bosses are way more impressive. Each raid boss has its own music and will have many custom animations and mechanics. Often they will have two phases with a dramatic phase transition. In the most recent expansion, the final boss of each dungeon is essentially a mini raid boss in terms of the custom attention they got from the developers.

Most mechanics in XIV share a common design language, so that you don't need to relearn every move for each encounter. For example, if you need to stack, the stack icon will be the same for every boss fight. This lets you focus on the few unique mechanics to the fight without relearning everything based on the new animations.

WoW raids rely a lot on improvisation and response due to the boss AI. In XIV, the boss mostly runs on a script with very few random elements. This means you focus more on learning and execution as opposed to adaptability. Some people like this, others don't.

Itemization for raiding in XIV is almost nonexistent. With few exceptions, you're grinding to get the item with higher item level and it will be your best in slot. Items do not have interesting active/passive abilities which meaningfully change your playstyle. There are also no talents. Your kit is your kit. If you want to play differently, you play a different Job/Class.

Rotations in XIV at level cap are comparable to WoW, but again have less of an improvisation element and more of an execution element. Some recent classes like Red Mage and Dancer buck this trend and have more proc-and-priority-based gameplay.

As a "mid-core" player, the lowest difficulty level in XIV is incredibly satisfying to me (Normal trials/Normal raids). 8 people must respect mechanics, but often one mistake for the entire group per minute is recoverable and the DPS checks are present but forgiving. Compare this to LFR mode where you don't pay attention. I would say it is also slightly harder than Normal mode WoW raids.

The next difficulty tier (EX Trial) is also very satisfying. You can PUG it, but not every PUG group will clear it and it may take you several full timers (1 hour) to learn the fight well enough to clear it. DPS checks are raised but still don't require top-10% execution.

The highest difficulty tiers (Savage and Ultimate) are mostly beyond my interest. I might clear the lowest level Savage raids each tier but I have never fully cleared.

My suspicion is that Mythic+ grinders and Mythic WoW raiders would find XIV's content too limited. Where it shines is for players that:
  1. value presentation/polish
  2. are bored by LFR but don't want to organize large groups of players
  3. don't mind the smaller amount of content in absolute terms
  4. want to jump into a fight and master it rather than worry about their gear choices.
 
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Lesath

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
793
Most classes surely had no complex rotations in Classic compared to modern wow. But the huge difference is the plain amount of utility abilities that makes every class feel unique in Classic. Best example is the shaman and the paladin. Managing which totems and blessing were the best in which situation was cool, now these things barely exist anymore. Or think about hybrid classes in Classic that brought a huge amount of utility powers to the table. Warrior stances, different utility stuff on each of the warlock demons, debuff enemies with lower armor or resistances, actually having differences between fighting magic, high armored or physical range enemies, etc.

There are tons of nice elemtens in Classic WoW that are in your rotation, but abilities that could make the difference in a close PvE (mabye not as much in Raids) and PvP. Playing a druid in battlegrounds was amazing back then because you had these insane amount of utilities you bring to the group (sprinting, stealth, fearie fire so enemies can't stealth, being a self healing tank as a bear, etc). Nowadays you are just a normal class like everyone else
A lot of classes *do* still have unique utility: A DK's Death Grip. A Monk's 5% phyiscal damage debuff. A Paladin's BoP and LoH. A Warrior's Battle Shout and raid-wide Last Stand. A Warlock's Healthstones and Gates. And those are just the classes I play!

...also, Druids can still do a lot of that.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,376
As someone with like 100 days played in FF and like 2000 days /played in wow. It's FF14. Not even close, wow is a dumpsterfire these days.
 

piratethingy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
154
WoW is my favorite game of all time. Been on and off for a while now though, I play every expansion at launch but fall off after a few months at max level waiting for a new patch to drop and give me content to rip through in two days.

Just started FF14, about 80 hours in. There's absolutely no discussion here. I can't fathom the kind of fan you'd have to be to say WoW at this point lol.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,376
Most classes surely had no complex rotations in Classic compared to modern wow. But the huge difference is the plain amount of utility abilities that makes every class feel unique in Classic. Best example is the shaman and the paladin. Managing which totems and blessing were the best in which situation was cool, now these things barely exist anymore. Or think about hybrid classes in Classic that brought a huge amount of utility powers to the table. Warrior stances, different utility stuff on each of the warlock demons, debuff enemies with lower armor or resistances, actually having differences between fighting magic, high armored or physical range enemies, etc.

There are tons of nice elemtens in Classic WoW that are in your rotation, but abilities that could make the difference in a close PvE (mabye not as much in Raids) and PvP. Playing a druid in battlegrounds was amazing back then because you had these insane amount of utilities you bring to the group (sprinting, stealth, fearie fire so enemies can't stealth, being a self healing tank as a bear, etc). Nowadays you are just a normal class like everyone else
This was never cool. The same totems and blessings were always useful outside of pvp. Literally nobody even had a rotation in vanilla besides rogues, and theirs was 100% static (though different per spec which was good)
 

Gankzymcfly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
This was never cool. The same totems and blessings were always useful outside of pvp. Literally nobody even had a rotation in vanilla besides rogues, and theirs was 100% static (though different per spec which was good)
Not true.Pretty much all classes had/have rotations. The depth of some of those rotations is debatable, but you can't say they don'/didn't exist. For example, a mage PVE rotation is extremely one dimensional. Regardless of spec, your generally only spamming between 2-3 skills per encounter, in conjunction with consumables and trinkets.That being said if your not executing this rotation properly and efficiently you will stand out to others in raid and have the potential to directly influence the performance of other members of your raid in a negative way depending on the role your currently playing. Again if we consider mages, if you are the designated scortch mage your rotation has the potential to directly influence every other mages dps both positively and negatively depending on your efficiency. Additionally a mages rotation has the potential to change depending on circumstance, if ignites are not properly distributed threat will be too highly allocated on a single individual so your rotation is in a constant state of flux depending on circumstance. To suggest that only rogues had a rotation and that it was 100% static is just completely outside reality.
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
206
A big turn off for a lot of people going from WoW to FFXIV is that the global cooldown is 1 second longer in FFXIV. Combine that with the general lack of skills in the early game, and a large portion of the ARR content (levels 1-50) being pretty dull.

Once you get the expansion content though, no other MMO really compares to FFXIV in my opinion. Amazing music, good story, great dungeons, and fantastic boss fights.

Also, a lot of the classes get pretty busy once you get some abilities outside of the global cooldown.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,443
Not true.Pretty much all classes had/have rotations. The depth of some of those rotations is debatable, but you can't say they don'/didn't exist. For example, a mage PVE rotation is extremely one dimensional. Regardless of spec, your generally only spamming between 2-3 skills per encounter, in conjunction with consumables and trinkets.That being said if your not executing this rotation properly and efficiently you will stand out to others in raid and have the potential to directly influence the performance of other members of your raid in a negative way depending on the role your currently playing. Again if we consider mages, if you are the designated scortch mage your rotation has the potential to directly influence every other mages dps both positively and negatively depending on your efficiency. Additionally a mages rotation has the potential to change depending on circumstance, if ignites are not properly distributed threat will be too highly allocated on a single individual so your rotation is in a constant state of flux depending on circumstance. To suggest that only rogues had a rotation and that it was 100% static is just completely outside reality.
Vanilla gameplay ladies and gentlemen.

Ice block > frostbolt > ice barrier > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,376
Not true.Pretty much all classes had/have rotations. The depth of some of those rotations is debatable, but you can't say they don'/didn't exist. For example, a mage PVE rotation is extremely one dimensional. Regardless of spec, your generally only spamming between 2-3 skills per encounter, in conjunction with consumables and trinkets.That being said if your not executing this rotation properly and efficiently you will stand out to others in raid and have the potential to directly influence the performance of other members of your raid in a negative way depending on the role your currently playing. Again if we consider mages, if you are the designated scortch mage your rotation has the potential to directly influence every other mages dps both positively and negatively depending on your efficiency. Additionally a mages rotation has the potential to change depending on circumstance, if ignites are not properly distributed threat will be too highly allocated on a single individual so your rotation is in a constant state of flux depending on circumstance. To suggest that only rogues had a rotation and that it was 100% static is just completely outside reality.
No, it's 100% true. Sorry. "Spam frostbolt or fireball and occasionally hit your instant cast" is not a rotation.

The hot combat rogue rotation?
1 1 1
2
1 1 1 1 1
2
1 1 1 1 1
3
 

Gankzymcfly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
Vanilla gameplay ladies and gentlemen.

Ice block > frostbolt > ice barrier > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt > frostbolt
The video says unavailable but from what I can see and what you have said that sounds like a video of a bad mage or just a POV of the encounter with very little input....i can see in the thumbnail he's running AQ so the fact that he's running frost spec is questionable at best..you mention he cast ice barrier off a frost bolt which doesn't make sense because you shouldn't be wasting time and mana buffing yourself during an encounter..additionally if your not managing the cooldowns of your consumables and trinket + hot swapping while outside of combat your not contributing in any meaningful way to the raid...yes you can play the way you described but it's not effective and you will likely lose your raid spot if do... the person recording this video was likely carried through the raid for the sake of recording the video by the other 39 members of the raid.

No, it's 100% true. Sorry. "Spam frostbolt or fireball and occasionally hit your instant cast" is not a rotation.

The hot combat rogue rotation?
1 1 1
2
1 1 1 1 1
2
1 1 1 1 1
3
Again, that's just not true. You can play the way your describing..."just cast one spell and hope for the best"...but in 99% of encounters that's not how things play out....and if your playing that way you will die consistently or be inefficient and lose your raid spot as a result. Almost every high tier raid encounter in vanilla requires a level of calculation and execution on the part of almost every person in the raid that goes far beyond "just cast x or y"..especially early on when your raid is still comparatively undergeard. Like I said, you can play the way your describing but it's unlikely that you will ever come anywhere close to clearing Naxx if your whole raid is playing that way.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,443
The video says unavailable but from what I can see and what you have said that sounds like a video of a bad mage or just a POV of the encounter with very little input....i can see in the thumbnail he's running AQ so the fact that he's running frost spec is questionable at best..you mention he cast ice barrier off a frost bolt which doesn't make sense because you shouldn't be wasting time and mana buffing yourself during an encounter..additionally if your not managing the cooldowns of your consumables and trinket + hot swapping while outside of combat your not contributing in any meaningful way to the raid...yes you can play the way you described but it's not effective and you will likely lose your raid spot if do... the person recording this video was likely carried through the raid for the sake of recording the video by the other 39 members of the raid.



Again, that's just not true. You can play the way your describing..."just cast one spell and hope for the best"...but in 99% of encounters that's not how things play out....and if your playing that way you will die consistently or be inefficient and lose your raid spot as a result. Almost every high tier raid encounter in vanilla requires a level of calculation and execution on the part of almost every person in the raid that goes far beyond "just cast x or y"..especially early on when your raid is still comparatively undergeard. Like I said, you can play the way your describing but it's unlikely that you will ever come anywhere close to clearing Naxx if your whole raid is playing that way.


Rogue rotation: backstab, backstab, wait 7 seconds, backstab, backstab, slice and dice, wait 7 seconds.
World first getting carrierd, sure, that also proves how freaking easy vanilla was.
 
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Gankzymcfly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495


Rogue rotation: backstab, backstab, wait 7 seconds, backstab, backstab, slice and dice, wait 7 seconds.
World first getting carrierd, sure, that also proves how freaking easy vanilla was.
Again this is a miss characterization of what is actually happening and those videos are so old they don't accurately represent how people actually play the game now. Additionally your failing to consider the fact that these are the first ever encounter clears which weren't optimized in anyway and accomplished by people who didn't have a full understanding of how best to play their class in conjunction with 39 other players in a raid.

These people were content with simply accomplishing the encounters (which is absolutely fine) and being the first people to do so. These players focused a single objective in a week (for example, this week we clear AQ and work on downing cthun) where as modern raiders focus on getting all the raids they need finished before the week resets (for example, this week we need to clear MC, kill Only, Clear BwL, clear AQ 40 run a couple zgs, a couple aq20s and finally naxx). This is just the mentality of the modern gamer in general...the original destiny being a good example with its various weekly objectives that people create alt characters to get multiple shots at per week..an example of optimizing..if your raiding in classic your not doing it to say"I beat boss x or boss y" because every boss has already been killed thousands of times.... generally guilds only raid 2-3 days a week 2-4 hours a night tops..but in that window of time a lot more is accomplished then was ever accomplished back in 2006 due to people having a better understanding of how the game is actually played.

This video better represents the cthun encounter and all the micromanagement involved as well as some general consumables every class would be using. This is not including all the individual micromanagement and consumables each class requires. Wiping on cthun means you add 30 minutes to your raid night with how long it takes to get back to him and buffed etc. That's why players optimize as much as possible so they clear the content as fast as possible and move on to the next thing.
 
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SUPARNOVAX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
232
Brooklyn, NY
Shadowbringers >>> Battle for Azeroth for me so far. But I have yet to renew for 8.2 yet, I'm eager to slay Queen Azshara one way or another.

Current have 80DRK/72WHM/64DNC in FFXIV; 120 Rogue/Priest/Warrior/Paladin/Deathknight in BFA.

The single character switching job aspect is neat. I don't need to relog on multiple characters to clear content and hop I get something good. I'm up to 5 max level characters in BFA, I don't have that much time in the day to grind at this age.

FFXIV wins for me right now, less rng, more straight forward content. I can't stomach anymore world quests for random trash drops from the boxes. And pushing mythic+ is like... here bust your ass and keep getting more random crap you don't want from the challengers chest. FFXIV, I farm up the dungeons and roulettes, I get the gear I want to progress and I don't get sidetracked by random drops.

I can't stand the HoA/artifact power system. My best WoW experiences vanilla > TBC > WOTLK > Legion/Cata > MOP > BFA > WOD

In FFXIV, I originally started with 1.0... obviously not great and the 2.0 ARR reboot refreshed it well. I would say a lot of the content up to 50 is kinda on the boring side. 60-80 content is more engaging and fun. I'd definitely recommend FFXIV right now since the new stuff is good.
 

ZangBa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,297
I don't know why anyone would play Classic just for the raiding, everyone knows it was pretty bunk back then. I'm in it for the ruthless world PvP and gimmicks. I'm attacking every scum Alliance player on sight.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,376
Again this is a miss characterization of what is actually happening and those videos are so old they don't accurately represent how people actually play the game now. Additionally your failing to consider the fact that these are the first ever encounter clears which weren't optimized in anyway and accomplished by people who didn't have a full understanding of how best to play their class in conjunction with 39 other players in a raid.

These people were content with simply accomplishing the encounters (which is absolutely fine) and being the first people to do so. These players focused a single objective in a week (for example, this week we clear AQ and work on downing cthun) where as modern raiders focus on getting all the raids they need finished before the week resets (for example, this week we need to clear MC, kill Only, Clear BwL, clear AQ 40 run a couple zgs, a couple aq20s and finally naxx). This is just the mentality of the modern gamer in general...the original destiny being a good example with its various weekly objectives that people create alt characters to get multiple shots at per week..an example of optimizing..if your raiding in classic your not doing it to say"I beat boss x or boss y" because every boss has already been killed thousands of times.... generally guilds only raid 2-3 days a week 2-4 hours a night tops..but in that window of time a lot more is accomplished then was ever accomplished back in 2006 due to people having a better understanding of how the game is actually played.

This video better represents the cthun encounter and all the micromanagement involved as well as some general consumables every class would be using. This is not including all the individual micromanagement and consumables each class requires. Wiping on cthun means you add 30 minutes to your raid night with how long it takes to get back to him and buffed etc. That's why players optimize as much as possible so they clear the content as fast as possible and move on to the next thing.
Listen, I did all this stuff when it was relevant, I did all this stuff on private servers. You are flat out incorrect when you try to characterize wow rotations as complicated in Vanilla. Using a fucking potion at a specific time does not make it a rotation. You claim you don't just spam your best spell and occasionally hit an off gcd or scorch or whatever, but you've yet to actually state what you think someone is ACTUALLY going to be doing instead of that. Hot tip: Nothing. Because there is nothing else you CAN do. Yeah, I could opt to press Frostbolt 3 instead of Fireball 6 or whatever, but there's no reason I would do that.

You're also VERY wrong if you think raiders 'back then' just focused on one thing at a time, unless the gear was irrelevant we always farmed out everything. We were running molten core until TBC came out because hey you might get thunderfury and it only takes an hour and a half.

I'm not sure what you think you gain by coming in here and defending the honor of a game we all played and trying to gaslight people over the complexities of classic wow. It's a good game, it's fine, you can say it was good and still admit that the combat design of those classes was closer to EverQuest than it was of modern wow or FF14 though.
 

aesync

Member
Jan 19, 2018
356
Chicago
I don't know why anyone would play Classic just for the raiding, everyone knows it was pretty bunk back then. I'm in it for the ruthless world PvP and gimmicks. I'm attacking every scum Alliance player on sight.
Exactly. Plus questing back in vanilla was pretty fun, and actually difficult. Call me crazy but it’s fun to actually search around the map to find hidden questgivers. I realize this may be Stockholm syndrome talking lol
 

Iadien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,067
WoW for me, but not because I think it's good right now, it's more about how boring I find FF14 to be. I cannot stand FF14 gameplay, I've gotten to around level 30 and I just can't force myself to continue playing and paying money for expansions hoping I like it eventually.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,376
WoW for me, but not because I think it's good right now, it's more about how boring I find FF14 to be. I cannot stand FF14 gameplay, I've gotten to around level 30 and I just can't force myself to continue playing and paying money for expansions hoping I like it eventually.
Your opinion is valid cause it's an opinion, but I would say that you should try playing wow to level 30 and seeing how complex any of the classes are. It's not very.
 

Iadien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,067
Your opinion is valid cause it's an opinion, but I would say that you should try playing wow to level 30 and seeing how complex any of the classes are. It's not very.
It has nothing to do with being complex, I'm not enjoying it at all. I've been playing MMOs for almost 20 years, so I know what I like.
 

Pygrus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
631
It's FF14 at this point, but I think WoW will come back into the number 1 slot at some point. Be it classic or the next xpack. Square isn't really willing to experiment with the main progression at max level. They will add some alternate progression stuff, that won't really have much bearing on the main group content. So basically every expansion boils down to the same content release cycles, just with different primals, alliance raids, and normal raids. Where as WoW has always had very unique progression methods in past, even if they haven't all be received well. Blizzard will come along and make another Legion expansion that is widely praised.
 

Gankzymcfly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
Listen, I did all this stuff when it was relevant, I did all this stuff on private servers. You are flat out incorrect when you try to characterize wow rotations as complicated in Vanilla. Using a fucking potion at a specific time does not make it a rotation. You claim you don't just spam your best spell and occasionally hit an off gcd or scorch or whatever, but you've yet to actually state what you think someone is ACTUALLY going to be doing instead of that. Hot tip: Nothing. Because there is nothing else you CAN do. Yeah, I could opt to press Frostbolt 3 instead of Fireball 6 or whatever, but there's no reason I would do that.

You're also VERY wrong if you think raiders 'back then' just focused on one thing at a time, unless the gear was irrelevant we always farmed out everything. We were running molten core until TBC came out because hey you might get thunderfury and it only takes an hour and a half.

I'm not sure what you think you gain by coming in here and defending the honor of a game we all played and trying to gaslight people over the complexities of classic wow. It's a good game, it's fine, you can say it was good and still admit that the combat design of those classes was closer to EverQuest than it was of modern wow or FF14 though.
Again your just plain wrong and making a bunch of assumptions that don't hold any basis in reality. I specifically used mage as an example of one of the simpler classes to demonstrate that even a class that has a straightforward skill rotations still has a rotation. Something you claimed was entirely non existent for any class other than rogue which was flat out wrong as you've pointed out yourself in your own posts acknowledging the simplicity of the mages rotation since.

Never claimed raiders were only clearing content for the sake of clearing content and stopped clearing things after they had already accomplished it...what I was pointing out is the difference between raiding content you have on farm and progression nights....since the videos posted were all of world first boss downings from 2006 it's safe to assume these were progression raids. Since every boss has been killed 1000 times plus, every raid moving forward is for the sake of farming content that has already been cleared. In other words...you shouldn't need to spend any time learning encounters because all encounters are known and understood.

Trinkets and consumables directly influence your rotation especially for a class like a mage. It's not just a single potion your managing...your popping mana pots on cooldowns, demonic runes on cooldown, mana rubies on cooldown, prot pots, invulnerability potions, etc.... there is far more complexity to that than simply "pop the right potion at the right time".. and that's the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not trying to suggest that wow classic is some crazy complex game...I'm not even suggesting it's any more complex than final fantasy or retail WoW...literally never even came close to making this suggestion...I prefer classic over retail WoW and final fantasy and that was essentially the gist of my first post..didnt claim it was more complex, had more depth, none of that shit..then somebody responded to me and claimed that wow classic was nothing but auto attacking...I pointed out that the game has far more depth than simply auto attacking, which has clearly been demonstrated.

Now that we have moved past the claim that WoW classic is just "auto-attacking" somehow my argument has been twisted to suggest that I am claiming it is more complex than FF or retail WoW which is not the case... If I did please point out where I made that claim..

In any case, the only claim I've made is that WoW classic has far more depth than what has been suggested by some in this thread...namely...it's not just auto attacking and rogues arn't the only class with a rotation...so far nobody has been able to deny these facts.


Just as an aside... You said there is no reason you would ever down rank a frost bolt which is entirely incorrect...several encounters require you to down rank your Frost bolt in some cases all the way down to rank 1 with Viscidus being the standout reason why you would. So ya your wrong about that as well...
 
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Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
229
Just watch a video of the entire “innocence” fight on FFXIV and you’ll know why it is way beyond what WoW currently outputs. NOTE if you don’t like spoilers don’t do it
 

Pygrus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
631
Just watch a video of the entire “innocence” fight on FFXIV and you’ll know why it is way beyond what WoW currently outputs. NOTE if you don’t like spoilers don’t do it
That's super unfair to any final boss in a mythic tier raid in WoW. They are very complicated, even more so then most FF14 fights. Honestly, WoW prob has better raid content then FF14, since blizzard atleast makes the arena you fight the boss in look interesting. In FF14, all you have is squares and circles. Sometimes you will see something else, but it rarely happens.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,814
Don't let a good conversation and topic be poisoned by people still salty about Classic WoW. Just ignore them. Seriously. You'll ruin the entire topic going back and forth on stuff that's already been discussed to death.
 

Missingnomer

Member
Nov 29, 2017
10
If you are casual player, FF14. If you want to engross yourself and only play one game for a long time, WoW. I played both a lot and WoW has superior gameplay and mechanics. FF14 is a much better single-player mmo. WoW is the king of group content. It really allows the players to learn and get better at playing their classes and roles. I sorta face-rolled my way through FF14.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,376
Again your just plain wrong and making a bunch of assumptions that don't hold any basis in reality. I specifically used mage as an example of one of the simpler classes to demonstrate that even a class that has a straightforward skill rotations still has a rotation. Something you claimed was entirely non existent for any class other than rogue which was flat out wrong as you've pointed out yourself in your own posts acknowledging the simplicity of the mages rotation since.

Never claimed raiders were only clearing content for the sake of clearing content and stopped clearing things after they had already accomplished it...what I was pointing out is the difference between raiding content you have on farm and progression nights....since the videos posted were all of world first boss downings from 2006 it's safe to assume these were progression raids. Since every boss has been killed 1000 times plus, every raid moving forward is for the sake of farming content that has already been cleared. In other words...you shouldn't need to spend any time learning encounters because all encounters are known and understood.

Trinkets and consumables directly influence your rotation especially for a class like a mage. It's not just a single potion your managing...your popping mana pots on cooldowns, demonic runes on cooldown, mana rubies on cooldown, prot pots, invulnerability potions, etc.... there is far more complexity to that than simply "pop the right potion at the right time".. and that's the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not trying to suggest that wow classic is some crazy complex game...I'm not even suggesting it's any more complex than final fantasy or retail WoW...literally never even came close to making this suggestion...I prefer classic over retail WoW and final fantasy and that was essentially the gist of my first post..didnt claim it was more complex, had more depth, none of that shit..then somebody responded to me and claimed that wow classic was nothing but auto attacking...I pointed out that the game has far more depth than simply auto attacking, which has clearly been demonstrated.

Now that we have moved past the claim that WoW classic is just "auto-attacking" somehow my argument has been twisted to suggest that I am claiming it is more complex than FF or retail WoW which is not the case... If I did please point out where I made that claim..

In any case, the only claim I've made is that WoW classic has far more depth than what has been suggested by some in this thread...namely...it's not just auto attacking and rogues arn't the only class with a rotation...so far nobody has been able to deny these facts.


Just as an aside... You said there is no reason you would ever down rank a frost bolt which is entirely incorrect...several encounters require you to down rank your Frost bolt in some cases all the way down to rank 1 with Viscidus being the standout reason why you would. So ya your wrong about that as well...
Downranking your spell is not a rotation. Pressing an off gcd ability once every 10 seconds is not a rotation. holy fucking shit. Nothing you described is remotely a rotation.

There is complexity to the encounter design and strategies, but there is NOT complexity to playing any class in vanilla wow when it comes to actually performing damage or tanking 'rotations' because they're not rotations. A rotation implies you're at least marginally doing something different from moment to moment, which is simply not true.

Like, you can google videos of any class doing any boss and watch their castbars.
It has nothing to do with being complex, I'm not enjoying it at all. I've been playing MMOs for almost 20 years, so I know what I like.
ok? The gameplay is like, identical, especially at low levels. At high levels FF plays more like wow did several years ago in many ways, with a lot more hotkeys and useful abilities than current wow, certainly more than vanilla wow.
 
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PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,719
I'd say FF14 is more a single player MMO, where you you can others if you get bored or feel isolated.
The PvP in FF14 is hilariously bad, like so bad I actually broke down in laughter the first time I played it and wasn't even able to focus on the content, as if it was even worth my full attention.
 

Gankzymcfly

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
Downranking your spell is not a rotation. Pressing an off gcd ability once every 10 seconds is not a rotation. holy fucking shit. Nothing you described is remotely a rotation.

There is complexity to the encounter design and strategies, but there is NOT complexity to playing any class in vanilla wow when it comes to actually performing damage or tanking 'rotations' because they're not rotations. A rotation implies you're at least marginally doing something different from moment to moment, which is simply not true.
Yea it is, its a simple rotation but it's a rotation. You can continue to be hyperbolic in your assessment but it doesn't change the fact.

Additionally mages generally have 4 trinkets they need to be swapping between and activating which changes the dynamic of their class. The mage trinket in bwl makes pyroblast viable in certain encounters as a last spell before the trinket ability wears off, additionally this trinket should be used on cooldown and you should never have it on while your waiting on the cooldown (you should be wearing neths tear, reed or 2%critt quest trinket while mage bwl trinket is on cooldown) and in addition to that you may also have talisman of power or the zg trinket you have to be swapping between as well. So less than every 2 minutes you need to be swapping between various pieces of gear and popping trinkets. This isn't even considering the possibility that the mage has engineering as a profession which open up a whole new world of abilities. Just because some of these skills are not directly tied to the class does not mean that they arnt included in your rotation. If you are a designated buffing mage your rotation is different from somebody who is a designated dps mage. Certain encounters require mages to incorporate dispels or counterspells into their rotation.

Like I said, this convo started with the claim that WoW was just auto attacking....then it evolved to rogues are the only one with rotation..now that both of those things have been demonstrated to be false, the definition of what a rotation is has been questioned due to the lack of complexity of some vanilla classes. How far are we going to keep moving the goal post?
 

banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,478
User warned: driveby
People still play WoW? (serious question, I don't play MMOs). Is it still subscription based? If so, if you've been playing since it came out... You've spent way too much money on a single game...

Edit:
How is this a driveby? I seriously wanted to know! Wtf!?!? The game is like 16 years old and I don’t even know if it gets updated anymore. I guess considering that reaction it’s safe to assume people do.

Another edit: looked up that it’s not subscription based anymore but it was for 14 years which at $15 a month would be over $2500!!! (Not including price of game and expansions)
 
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Rathorial

Member
Oct 28, 2017
481
I'm only really playing Elder Scrolls Online right now, but seems that FFXIV is getting better reception while WoW is in its worst place ever.

I actually tried WoW a month or two back, just to see what had changed, and they really just made the level progression + social elements worse over time vs. vanilla, BC or WotLK. I liked the quicker gameplay, but mobs and difficulty were a joke, and leveling no longer felt like an accomplishment. Mainly, Dungeon Finder really just killed the need to talk to other players, and because of that I just never had those emergent encounters or fun moments with other people like I used to in the game. Honestly, Dungeon Finder, sharding and other changes to the social component of the game is probably the strongest argument proponents of WoW Classic have to say the new game is worse...even if the combat mechanics look more complicated and fast-paced.

Unfortunately, even Elder Scrolls Online and other newer MMOs seem to suffer from having systems that automate out the need to communicate with other players, along with randomly streaming in players vs. having a set server population. I enjoy the combat more, the open-ness to how you can spec your character is the best I've seen in the genre, the quest design surprisingly decent and the exploration is fun...but it really can feel like a single-player game unless you join a guild.

Not sure if FFXIV is any different. I've been somewhat curious to try the game, but put off by people saying the leveling and questing experience can be a slog.