That nobody wad supposed to be historian that knows force history but his scenes was but
But cloning being sith science is dumb i i grant you that
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So what's up with people in the Star Wars universe not knowing about the Jedi or the Force or thinking it's stuff of legends when they should know?
- Thread starter AuthenticM
- Start date
But cloning being sith science is dumb i i grant you that
Some of the most powerful Jedi were doing all kinds of crazy Jedi tricks during the biggest battles of the Clone Wars (Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi for example). It's BS that nobody recorded that or can recollect these events a few decades later.
The Jedi didn't liberate Mandalore, a single former Jedi helped liberate Mandalore along with thousands of clone troopers mere minutes before the Jedi were branded traitors to the Republic and mass-executed, followed by a propaganda campaign to erase all trace of their existence.
Also, it seems like Mando and his clan are connected to Death Watch in some way (iconography, cult behavior, etc.) and Death Watch hated the Jedi and were the ones Ahsoka and the clones were liberating Mandalore from in the first place, so that could explain some of it.
Ya'll saying the universe is huge but Finn was on the same ship as Kylo Ren and people there had to have seen that man using the force daily.
There were only a few thousand Jedi in a galaxy of trillions to start.
The vast majority were killed and the rest had to go into hiding.
Imperial propaganda first painted them as terrorists and later they worked to remove the Jedi from the cultural history of the galaxy.
Add to that like 3 people knew that the Emperor was a Sith lord who had special powers.
The vast majority were killed and the rest had to go into hiding.
Imperial propaganda first painted them as terrorists and later they worked to remove the Jedi from the cultural history of the galaxy.
Add to that like 3 people knew that the Emperor was a Sith lord who had special powers.
'Jedi? Those religious guys wearing robes? My cousin saw one once, on the way to some meeting about a trade dispute. Didn't see him doing any magic though.'
So if the clan of Mando and the armour smith is connected to Death Watch shouldn't they both know about the Jedi who fought Death Watch a couple of decades earlier? It seems like the kind of stories you would tell to your fellow Mandalorians, especially when your leader (Pre Vizla) was killed by a Sith user (Darth Maul) and survived an encounter with a Jedi (Obi Wan).
Yes, Mandalorian with it's dude running around in Boba Fett armor with a "Baby Yoda."
It's not that hard to suss out why George went that way:
- He wanted the Prequels to be about the fall of the Republic and Anakin's journey to being Darth Vader, with these two events being heavily tied into one-another.
- He got really attached to the idea of the Jedi basically being the Republic's space cops, which really clashed with the legendary, mythical aura they had until that point.
- He wanted the Skywalker kids concieved before Anakin's turn, therefore that meant all this shit would have to go down 20 years prior to the OT.
Again this is folks taking the role of the Jedi to a higher position than it really was. The jedi didn't liberate mandalore, it was the Republic. Thousands of clones, diplomats of the republic, and like 3 Jedi were involved. Majority of people involved in the conflict will have never seen a Jedi even on a planetary conflict.
In most battles of the Clone Wars, the fighting was all done by clones and republic personnel with one Jedi as a field general at most. In the scope of warfare involving millions, the jedi were still incredibly rare
20 years of propaganda that not only began that the Jedi traitors to the Republic, but that they were charlatans. This coupled with the Empire purging all networks and databanks of any mention of them beyond likely the assassination attempt on High Chancellor Palpatine before he brought the galaxy under the glorious Empire.
With much of the Galactic population suffering tremendous losses from the Clone Wars and camps either viewing the Jedi as traitors or keeping it underwraps for fear of the ISB forces, it's no surprise younger generations didn't believe in any of it. People like Han, Mando, and that Imperial Officer were too young at the time to have really dealt with Jedi Order before it was eliminated.
I mean, look at how the Civil War is viewed by many, perhaps even most, Americans. Or Christmas.
With much of the Galactic population suffering tremendous losses from the Clone Wars and camps either viewing the Jedi as traitors or keeping it underwraps for fear of the ISB forces, it's no surprise younger generations didn't believe in any of it. People like Han, Mando, and that Imperial Officer were too young at the time to have really dealt with Jedi Order before it was eliminated.
I mean, look at how the Civil War is viewed by many, perhaps even most, Americans. Or Christmas.
Oh, I figured you meant lore-wise, not in terms of the appearance of various characters.
Also, even Obi-Wan says to Luke that the Jedi were "the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic". If that doesn't sound like space cops, I don't know what does.
Unfortunately Lucas had set it all up with A New Hope already, with the imperial Admiral bickering with Vader saying that the Force is a mere "Ancient Religion", and Tarkin "You are all that's left of their religion" ... And then GL set the Clone Wars a mere 20 years prior with hundreds of powerful Jedi with influence and renown across the galaxy.
Cause folks were running around galactic battlefields going WORLDSTAR!
It's a universe where folks easily fake video and holos, and just look how the world twists evidence in the age of information. Despite evidence in front of your eyes how much denial there is and misinformation? Mix that in with a galaxy run by an evil empire that controls everything with an iron hand, worked on purging all evidence of the jedi from the galaxy. It's like China and countries censoring their internet and what their people could see. They have specifically gone into how the Empire purged the jedi from the galaxy, they becoming largely legend to much of the galaxy
See my post above for another example of Jedi having conflicts with Mandalorians. There's also yet another example of Jedi getting into a conflict on Mandalore. During Rebels Kanan and Ezra help Sabine and her clan against Clan Saxon and The Empire which causes a civil war between Mandalorians. That's less than 15 years before the Mandalorian.
You think every single Mandalorian was on the siege? There so much in fighting within the clans it's practically impossible for more than a handful of clans to have been present
People on Coruscant saw the Jedi all the time. Some of the were definitely still around during the OT to tell people the Jedi weren't a myth.
Okay, on one hand sure, Star Wars is sloppy and cartoonish with the internal logic of its world building.
On the other hand I'm sitting here in real life watching live humans deny the existence of things they saw happen yesterday with their own eyes.
So...
On the other hand I'm sitting here in real life watching live humans deny the existence of things they saw happen yesterday with their own eyes.
So...
No, but enough Mandalorians saw the Jedi during the Siege and Obi Wan was walking with Kryze for several days on Mandalore and he even saved her. It seems like people on Mandalore would know about that.
It's not even just that.
If you told me there was a militia somewhere on another continent that used weird tactics to fight battles, I'd be like "oh damn I've never heard of that" - in fact, there's plenty of shit on our own planet I've most definitely never heard of.
Yet people think it's hard to believe that not everyone in the galaxy where Star Wars takes place might not have heard of Jedi before, who were always referred to as being "few in number". In AOTC they even say there aren't enough Jedi to fight a war for the Republic, etc.
Seriously people, it's not that hard to believe -and this isn't science fiction, it's space fantasy fun - enjoy the ride.
90% of movie discussions these days make me think of this scene lol:
I think that's a pretty big issue, yeah. Like, we know they can transmit data across multiple star systems if not the entire galaxy and they've happily reported on or dramatised Jedi shenanigans. Everyone would know who the space wizards were even if they never met one.
The only real explanation is perhaps it's the smaller Outer Rim worlds that don't know about the Jedi and even then only the poorer people. I mean, folks on Tatooine knew who Jedi were and what the Force was. Luke knew about the Clone Wars and didn't need to have what Jedi Knights were explained to him, either. Plus of course you had Imperial officers who saw the Force as a form of sorcery and the Rebellion leaders often said "May the Force be with you".
So as far as the first six movies were concerned, the Jedi and the Force were not some forgotten thing during Imperial rule - they were merely framed as villains and spoken of in hushed tones even by people who knew they were heroes.
It's pretty much the entire fault of the Prequel Trilogy, where instead of handling the Jedi delicately and with obscurity, they opted for making Yoda pretty much the Space Pope of the Republic.
Hell, Hollywood would start making cross-overs with those monks and the MCU about six months into the war.
Except that if tomorrow, Trump announced that Russia and its allies are waging a war against the US and thus he created an army of clones whose military leadership is gonna consist of a group of shaolin monks with supernatural powers, everybody on the planet and their mother would know and talk about it for the next 1000 years.
Hell, Hollywood would start making cross-overs with those monks and the MCU about six months into the war.
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"Hey there was Jedi" "cool story" Yea ok so what? The galaxy moved on, the jedi were not relevant to anything anymore especially during the time of the Empire. Kids today don't know about 9/11, and important event for us on a small planet, now compare that with galactic happenings involving millions of planets. The tides of change would move much faster in such a vast universe and something like the jedi would be not important to many. "hey there was jedi back in the clone wars period!...." "Wow that's great, who cares?" "I gotta go report to the refinery before a stormtrooper shoots me, byeeee". Just our modern society shows us how much more important we treat relevance as a whole over actual history. And look at the history taught to children, it's so diluted and full of falsehoods in presentation. Now take a galaxy that an oppressive Empire has gone out of its way to purge that history as well.
Two jedi in an isolated battle involving two clans, we see less than a few hundred soldiers on each side total in the show. You have a planet of clans and mandos who had no involvement in that conflict as well or the post purge events.
OP, I feel like the movies answered your question rather simply a multiple of times. Maybe you just haven't seen them in a while.
Sure, but:
-One planet, not a galaxy
-And a galaxy used to crazy shit nonetheless
-A government takes over that effectively erases every mention of the Jedi from the galaxy
There aren't that many Jedi and the galaxy is vast. AOTC crawl states: "...has made it difficult for the the limited number of Jedi Knights to maintain peace and order in the galaxy."
I think this is the most reasonable answer. in the OT everyone talks about the Jedi and the force like those days are generations old. More civilized age,just superstition and all that. As a kid I thought maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda had extended his life through the force, Vader had done so mechanically. You know like fucking space wizards might.
Then the prequels came along and everything felt compressed.
On a more basic level though just considering what's in the prequels, the Jedi wern't just the Jedi, they had a huge organisation, they must have had scouts finding younglings and a massive administration behind them. They looked to be fairly involved in high level politics.
If there was any kind of news available in the republic, the Jedi order would have featured. As a fairly powerful faction of the republic.
They also didn't keep to a monastey. They were highly active it military actions, peacekeeping, and diplomacy.
I just don't see something like that expunged in less then a few generations let alone in living memory.
Also it would have been better propaganda for the empire to vilify the Jedi Order
It's not just about the propaganda of the Empire you keep telling about. Actual Mandalorians that saw the Jedi and fought them came into contact with both Mando and the armour smith. How do these warrior culture Mandalorians not tell about their greatest opponents?
It's just weird and your false anologies to our world don't make sense, because we don't have a country that rules most of the world and whose military was led by the Jedi which seem to be forgotten two/three decades later. Our world also doesn't have FTL communications which makes communicating to other systems extremely easy. Information can travel much faster in such a universe.
Even if the imperial propaganda machine works as you think, wouldn't the Empire depict the Jedi as the biggest traitors to the Republic so that everyone knows about the existence of the Jedi?
Actually, what if all those poor Outer Rim world farmers and riffraff totally knew about the Jedi, but simply pretended not to know, because they have a strange fascination with getting pointless exposition from Core World people, who think everyone from the Outer Rim is ignorant and dumb. 🤔️
The best way to enjoy Star Wars is to not think about it too hard.
This is a universe with hyper advanced technology, and people using that hyper advance technology in primitive ways.
It's sci fi don't get me wrong but its a universe that behaves more like LOTR with a sci fi coat of paint.
This is a universe with hyper advanced technology, and people using that hyper advance technology in primitive ways.
It's sci fi don't get me wrong but its a universe that behaves more like LOTR with a sci fi coat of paint.
afaik there's no Internet in the Star Wars universe (the first movies having been written in the 70s and all), so news travel like it would in a classic heroic fantasy story.
Mass Effect has the Extranet and it's cool. If Star Wars had an extranet there would be tons of internet conspirationist boards about the Jedi. Except they would be right.
Mass Effect has the Extranet and it's cool. If Star Wars had an extranet there would be tons of internet conspirationist boards about the Jedi. Except they would be right.
Not too unbelievable, there are people walking the planet right now who have convinced themselves the world is flat.
So there is a lot to unpack here:
1st point:
While we don't know the exact number of senate seats during the Republic (Prequel Trilogy) we can make a safe assumption using this image that it is more than 1000:
I don't have the source, but I've seen it referenced many times that there were approximately 10,000 "Jedi" during the Prequel trilogy. This includes Youngling and Padawans. It's worth noting that in Attack of the Clones, over 200 Jedi were there for the battle, and roughly 30 lived.
This means once the clone wars actually started, the Jedi Knights and Masters were already thinned out.
2nd point: The Jedi seem to favor the republic, and let the Outer rim take care of itself, and obviously had very little presence on Separatist planets. So basically, if you weren't born on a planet that had representation in the republic, then chances are you never saw a Jedi. Sometimes even being on a Republic planet still meant you didn't see Jedi, or if you did, it was common for them to simply say "Jedi Business" and you left them alone. You see this several times in the Clone Wars series, even on the lower levels of Coruscant. On top of this, planets that were safely inside the Inner Core of the Republic, and never saw battle of the Clone Wars, also likely never dealt with Jedi.
3rd point: Propaganda. The winners of war get to write history as they see fit. The Empire began teaching that Mace Windu led an insurgent group to kill the Chancellor/Emperor, but were thwarted by the Clone Army. While this point isn't seen in the movies, it is mentioned in the Lost Stars Novel.
4th point: It's estimated roughly 100 Jedi survived the Purge. We know at least 10 of them became Inquisitors. Vader hunted down quite a few himself. In the end you're looking at probably 40-60 Jedi, who are deep enough into hiding that they dare not reveal themselves spread across 1000s of planets.
If we assume there are 3000 planets in the Galaxy and 50 living Jedi, the odds of a Jedi being on your planet is 1%, and then the odds of you coming across that Jedi on your planet become drastically lower considering how reclusive they will have become.
1st point:
While we don't know the exact number of senate seats during the Republic (Prequel Trilogy) we can make a safe assumption using this image that it is more than 1000:
I don't have the source, but I've seen it referenced many times that there were approximately 10,000 "Jedi" during the Prequel trilogy. This includes Youngling and Padawans. It's worth noting that in Attack of the Clones, over 200 Jedi were there for the battle, and roughly 30 lived.
This means once the clone wars actually started, the Jedi Knights and Masters were already thinned out.
2nd point: The Jedi seem to favor the republic, and let the Outer rim take care of itself, and obviously had very little presence on Separatist planets. So basically, if you weren't born on a planet that had representation in the republic, then chances are you never saw a Jedi. Sometimes even being on a Republic planet still meant you didn't see Jedi, or if you did, it was common for them to simply say "Jedi Business" and you left them alone. You see this several times in the Clone Wars series, even on the lower levels of Coruscant. On top of this, planets that were safely inside the Inner Core of the Republic, and never saw battle of the Clone Wars, also likely never dealt with Jedi.
3rd point: Propaganda. The winners of war get to write history as they see fit. The Empire began teaching that Mace Windu led an insurgent group to kill the Chancellor/Emperor, but were thwarted by the Clone Army. While this point isn't seen in the movies, it is mentioned in the Lost Stars Novel.
4th point: It's estimated roughly 100 Jedi survived the Purge. We know at least 10 of them became Inquisitors. Vader hunted down quite a few himself. In the end you're looking at probably 40-60 Jedi, who are deep enough into hiding that they dare not reveal themselves spread across 1000s of planets.
If we assume there are 3000 planets in the Galaxy and 50 living Jedi, the odds of a Jedi being on your planet is 1%, and then the odds of you coming across that Jedi on your planet become drastically lower considering how reclusive they will have become.
Because they werent? The conflict with the jedi even during the Clone Wars was a very personal battle at best. A duel between Pre and Maul, but outside of that, the battles they had were not against the jedi or heavily involving the jedi, the jedi were only there briefly in the Clone Wars before they left the planet to fight for itself, the planet was left to fight for itself. You again keep focusing on what you have seen focused on a tv show, which is highlighting only the jedi, but you have an entire planetary conflict, the actions of one jedi in a skirmish is going to not be a huge matter in a war involving thousands going on amongst clans for weeks to months. Majority of people involved at kinda busy dealing with the actual war.
We have a world with instant communication to almost anywhere. How is that different from FTL coms? We can communicate with next to no lag with anyone in the world, so the analogy is no different. What you again are missing is the scale of the universe and events. Look at how diluted information is and how news is ingored, twisted, and such in a small vacuum of our one planet. Now mix that in a universe with millions all communicating with each other. The information overload, the sheer volumes of news going on. Just a single star system would process so much news and information that a person could not keep up with it. Folks can't keep up with the events going on in their own city and local populace, you expect them to be able to filter and know everything going on in a galaxy of millions of planets, huge events and years of conflicts, politics, economic issues, and so on.
Just the amount of memes they would have to deal with. People are being killed in other countries in genocides with video evidence in real time being broadcasted and the civilized world of ours doesn't give a shit, we are busy sharing baby yoda memes.
The jedi are gone, why would they care or bother? There is maybe 1 or 2 hidden Jedi in the entire universe, why even talk about them at all? They have a whole inquisition who goes around destroying what existed of the jedi, it's all but wiped out. Even during the Clone Wars series people on many planets are shown to be WOWED when they meet Jedi and see the force in action, they have no clue. Again it's a matter of scale of importance. General population in a small planet like ours is so focused on itself, they have no idea whats going on in nearby states or even worse in another country. Even with all the news sources we have, folks are ignorant to whats going on as they are focused on their lives and what directly impacts them.
except they communicate in real time over vast distances so...
what
it involves a baby yoda
they go to tattooine
there's an ig-whatever droid
mandalorians are just boba fetts
We're one planet, and look how many people we've got thinking various atrocities from the last world war, whether in Europe or Asia, did not occur or were overstated. I don't know if things have changed, but Japan's school curricula have very blatantly excluded or minimized their country's war crimes in China. Then look at the US, where vast swaths of idiots are being brainwashed into believing things that happened in the last decade did not actually happen.
I'm not really sure you can chalk it up to poor writing. In fact, it might be a bit prescient.
Edit: And let's not forget that for the most part, the main characters of these stories come from the most backwater of planets in the galaxy. Putting aside the intentional erasure from history by the Empire of these stories, many may just not have ever encountered them because they really have no reason. Think of how much stuff you take for granted that might be dismissed as nonsense by anyone in any number of third world countries today.
I'm not really sure you can chalk it up to poor writing. In fact, it might be a bit prescient.
Edit: And let's not forget that for the most part, the main characters of these stories come from the most backwater of planets in the galaxy. Putting aside the intentional erasure from history by the Empire of these stories, many may just not have ever encountered them because they really have no reason. Think of how much stuff you take for granted that might be dismissed as nonsense by anyone in any number of third world countries today.
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So Death Watch, the group that saved the Mando and has a commection with the armour smith, didn't have a conflict with a Jedi? Death Watch litterally fled Concordia because they were discovered by Kryze and Obi Wan, a jedi. After that they went back to Mandalore, because of a force user, Darth Maul with whom they spent months planning an attack or Mandalore. How would all of Death Watch not know about the force and the Jedi?
You were very nice to type all of that. It should have been obvious, but Star Wars lore and presentation requires suspension of basic assumptions that would have otherwise accompanied a space-faring society.
On the Kardashev Scale, Star Wars societies are like...a weird mix of civilizations going all the way up to Type 2 civilizations...but always lacking what appears to be basic technological advances like radar tracking on ships (almost everything in Star Wars is using dumbfire technology, presumably for the sake of looking sufficiently like mid 20th century Earth warfare and dogfighting) and decent interstellar communication. Like, they don't even have any form of basic TV that I can recall. In a society that has rapid interstellar travel. Communication tech development seems to have stopped at like...some form advanced instant-transmitting radio tech for most, while the powerful also have some weird sort of holographic projection tech that provides real-time data transmission of a likeness across light years. But they ain't got no HDTV tho? Again, it's pretty awkward when you consider they have the ability to literally travel at or beyond the speed of light.
I suppose imagination was a bit tough for ol' Lucas in the late 70s, and that's fair. But they had The Jetsons back then too, so idk.
Long story short: Star Wars is not any sort of science-based Science Fiction. At all. Treat it as sci-fi fantasy and you'll be good. If you want something based a little more on better science principles, maybe stuff like Battlestar Galactica and The Expanse will be more appealing.
There were about 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy of trillions. Most people never saw them in action. You can have a religious order in service to the government without believing in their claims of miracles.
I "get" what you mean but I think this is a false equivalency because in the Star Wars world the Force/Jedi actually exist.
In our world there are no gods that we know about.
But yeah, I assume that I'd be very skeptical about the whole thing considering how big the galaxy is and the chances of meeting a Force user sounds almost impossible.
Still, all you need is one Force sensitive user to actually show they have powers via testing and you'd make a ton of people believe.
The galaxy has trillions of people and at the height of the Jedi there were 10,000 of them. Most people in the galaxy have never come near a Jedi, especially once Imperial propaganda/erasure started.
99% of the Galaxy has probably never seen a Jedi. And all they really know is they are some religious special cops.