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So when are western counties going to start returning artifacts they stole back to their origins?

SHould this happen

  • yes

    Votes: 515 56.9%

  • no

    Votes: 390 43.1%
  • Total voters
    905
Heromanz

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
SO is every going to happen? I was watch the black panther the other day and the scene when killmonger is at that museum made me start thinking. Like it time we start returning that shit from were it came from or at least try. Like could you imagine someone going and stealing the mona lisa and putting it in a museum north dakota . THe vast stealing of artifacts is one of the great forgotten things about colonialism . Crazy how shit was sloten.
 
Chairman Yang

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
It should only happen if the artifacts are returned to stable countries where there's virtually no prospect of destruction. Like don't return something to Mali only for it to be destroyed by Islamists a few years later, for example.
 
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,185
Chairman Yang said:
It should only happen if the artifacts are returned to stable countries where there's virtually no prospect of destruction. Like don't return something to Mali only for it to be destroyed by Islamists a few years later, for example.
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Yep.

Easter Island is a good example of where returning artifacts should work.
 
RDreamer

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
Should they? Yes in almost all cases. Maybe some exceptions for unstable regions where artifacts would be destroyed.

Will they? Lol no.
 
hombremalo

hombremalo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,959
Are origin places of those objects safe to preserve them or may some extremist destroy them out of radicalism
?
 
I am a Bird

I am a Bird

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,238
Never. They should, unless that region very unstable in which that is kind of a bad idea. But they will most likely never do so.
 
Masoyama

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
RustyNails said:
What's the reasoning on No votes?
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Shit is too messy to figure out. Who should own a Achaemenid piece, for example? Should Roman artifacts be returned to Rome, Italy, Turkey, or the closest place where people think it was made? When do you draw the line, for example, should the British have to return pieces to France that where part of a peace treaty at some point between them?

What about cultural transitions? Should a Carthagenian artifact be returned to Tunisia, even though the modern Tunis people are descendants of the invading Berbers and not the original Carthaginians? Modern Turkish people are descendants of the Ottomans and not the Byzantines, so do they get any claim of the Byzantine artifacts? Should something traced back to Ptolemaic Egypt be considered part of Macedonian or Egyptian History?

Etc, etc, etc,
 
Frankie Williamson

Frankie Williamson

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,016
Masoyama said:
Shit is too messy to figure out. Who should own a Achaemenid piece, for example? Should Roman artifacts be returned to Rome, Italy, Turkey, or the closest place where people think it was made? When do you draw the line, for example, should the British have to return pieces to France that where part of a peace treaty at some point between them?
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It's not like there's one size fits all and it's better than just telling plundered cultures that too bad, we get to keep the shit we stole.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Masoyama said:
Shit is too messy to figure out. Who should own a Achaemenid piece, for example? Should Roman artifacts be returned to Rome, Italy, Turkey, or the closest place where people think it was made? When do you draw the line, for example, should the British have to return pieces to France that where part of a peace treaty at some point between them?
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Ok, why does Europe get to be the safekeeper of artifacts from Asia? Let's not even go to ancient history. We can focus on European imperialism and colonialism. Why not return the artifacts to these former colonies if they want it?
 
Malverde

Malverde

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,612
Unceded Tongva and Acjachemen land
I think there is great power in the acknowledgment that, yes, our ancestors did some fucked up shit and we, their descendants, are willing to take a step (a very small step, mind you) to make things right. This would be a great first step in reconciliation of historic wrongs, which probably scares the ever loving shit out of western countries due to fear of a slippery slope. There are a lot of chickens out there and the thought of all of them coming home to roost is likely terrifying. "If you give a mouse a cookie" mindset.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
RustyNails said:
What's the reasoning on No votes?
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I voted yes, but the argument I've heard is that the people who occupy these current areas are not necessarily the same people who created the artifacts in the first place. Places get conquered, change empires, etc. In some cases, the indigenous populations might not even exist anymore, like with several native american tribes who had artifacts stolen by the spaniards. Do you return them to the modern Americans living on their land who have virtually no ties to the people who created the artifacts in the first place?
 
Masoyama

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
RustyNails said:
Ok, why does Europe get to be the safekeeper of artifacts from Asia? Let's not even go to ancient history. We can focus on European imperialism and colonialism. Why not return the artifacts to these former countries if they want it?
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Ok, then. Should chinese artifacts be given to Taiwan or CCP? What about Mongol and Tibetan artifacts?
 

Deleted member 431

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,675
Depends on the item and how it was acquired. Not all of them were stolen/plundered and some empire/civilizations don't even exist anymore to give items back to.
 
Barrel_Roll

Barrel_Roll

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
963
Masoyama said:
Shit is too messy to figure out. Who should own a Achaemenid piece, for example? Should Roman artifacts be returned to Rome, Italy, Turkey, or the closest place where people think it was made? When do you draw the line, for example, should the British have to return pieces to France that where part of a peace treaty at some point between them?

What about cultural transitions? Should a Carthagenian artifact be returned to Tunisia, even though the modern Tunis people are descendants of the invading Berbers and not the original Carthaginians? Modern Turkish people are descendants of the Ottomans and not the Byzantines, so do they get any claim of the Byzantine artifacts? Should something traced back to Ptolemaic Egypt be considered part of Macedonian or Egyptian History?

Etc, etc, etc,
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This is my reasoning for voting no, in addition to the earlier points raised about not sending things back to places that don't have the money or infrastructure to preserve them. However, these types of decisions should be made on a case by case basis.
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
While I like the idea that I can inexpensively go see art and culture from around the world at the Met, I'd be fine with artifacts being returned. I guess the downside is that now they're less accessible to people (eg lot of people visit NYC or London), but native populations will have easy access to them so maybe it evens out.
 
krazen

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,158
Gentrified Brooklyn
hombremalo said:
Are origin places of those objects safe to preserve them or may some extremist destroy them out of radicalism
?
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Good point. That said, its not hard to make the argument that the result of those societies not being stable enough to safeguard items they own but are important to all of humanity...is a byproduct of the fuckeries the world powers used to steal them in the first place, lol.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Masoyama said:
Shit is too messy to figure out. Who should own a Achaemenid piece, for example? Should Roman artifacts be returned to Rome, Italy, Turkey, or the closest place where people think it was made? When do you draw the line, for example, should the British have to return pieces to France that where part of a peace treaty at some point between them?

What about cultural transitions? Should a Carthagenian artifact be returned to Tunisia, even though the modern Tunis people are descendants of the invading Berbers and not the original Carthaginians? Modern Turkish people are descendants of the Ottomans and not the Byzantines, so do they get any claim of the Byzantine artifacts? Should something traced back to Ptolemaic Egypt be considered part of Macedonian or Egyptian History?

Etc, etc, etc,
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Did you read my post? Is there any public outcry on returning Carthagenian artificats to Tunisia? Why can't we focus on the evils of colonialism and right some of the wrongs committed there instead of trying to solve every non-problem in the world dating back to freaking Stone age?
 
Nome

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
jcs said:
While I like the idea that I can inexpensively go see art and culture from around the world at the Met, I'd be fine with artifacts being returned. I guess the downside is that now they're less accessible to people (eg lot of people visit NYC or London), but native populations will have easy access to them so maybe it evens out.
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It's not just about location, it's about ownership. Repatriation doesn't mean it has to be physically located in their place of origin.
 
ProstatePuncher

ProstatePuncher

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
I think it should happen but the places that some were taken from are dangerous and could see them be destroyed, such as places like Syria and Iraq. Mesopotamian history is some of the most at-risk out there thanks to wild terrorist groups out there.
 
Masoyama

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
RustyNails said:
Did you read my post? Is there any public outcry on returning Carthagenian artificats to Tunisia? Why can't we focus on the evils of colonialism and right some of the wrongs committed there instead of trying to solve every non-problem in the world dating back to freaking Stone age?
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So just focusing on recent colonialism, then. China should get to take over Tibetan artifacts then? The US government should be able to claim any native american piece they want? What about the majority white latin american countries like Uruguay, Argentina, Costa Rica, should we get to demand that they return native pieces to us even though we are barely genetically and culturally related to the original inhabitants of the land?
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
ProstatePuncher said:
I think it should happen but the places that some were taken from are dangerous and could see them be destroyed, such as places like Syria and Iraq. Mesopotamian history is some of the most at-risk out there thanks to wild terrorist groups out there.
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Wow so ISIS operates in small locales in a tiny handful of countries around the world so now we never have to return Koh-i-Noor diamonds stolen by the British Raj to Indian government. What?
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
David Cameron has rejected calls for the famous Koh-i-Noor diamond, which has been part of the Crown Jewels for 150 years, to be returned to India. The diamond, which was mined in India, was seized by the East India Company in 1849 and presented to Queen Victoria. Indian politicians have long urged the 105-carat treasure's return.

"If you say yes to one you suddenly find the British Museum would be empty," he said. " It is going to have to stay put."
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SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,342
São Paulo - Brazil
Masoyama said:
Shit is too messy to figure out. Who should own a Achaemenid piece, for example? Should Roman artifacts be returned to Rome, Italy, Turkey, or the closest place where people think it was made? When do you draw the line, for example, should the British have to return pieces to France that where part of a peace treaty at some point between them?

What about cultural transitions? Should a Carthagenian artifact be returned to Tunisia, even though the modern Tunis people are descendants of the invading Berbers and not the original Carthaginians? Modern Turkish people are descendants of the Ottomans and not the Byzantines, so do they get any claim of the Byzantine artifacts? Should something traced back to Ptolemaic Egypt be considered part of Macedonian or Egyptian History?

Etc, etc, etc,
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I think the "entitlement" to ancient artifacts is not as straight-foward as it sounds. Indeed, the very concept of cultural inheritance is extremely messy. Generally, not to say always, it's about modern concepts of nationhood being projected into the past. As if a state always existed.

One example that I would put foward, the Code of Hammurabi. Should it be returned to Iran where it was originally found, Iraq where it was originally placed or kept in France as it was a French expedition that found it? And that's ignoring present concerns.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Masoyama said:
So just focusing on recent colonialism, then. China should get to take over Tibetan artifacts then? The US government should be able to claim any native american piece they want? What about the majority white latin american countries like Uruguay, Argentina, Costa Rica, should we get to demand that they return native pieces to us even though we are barely genetically and culturally related to the original inhabitants of the land?
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Why does China get to take over Tibetan artifacts? Was China colonized by Tibet? I don't understand your America's comment. America did not colonize any country...? Not sure what you mean.
 
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