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TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
Trump is by far the worst. It's not even a contest.
Thankfully he's so ignorant and commands so little respect that he's not able to successfully act on most of his worst impulses.
The Trump administration is like that Nixon nuke order incident, but every day, and Trump doesn't even have the excuse of being drunk.
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
In no particular order for each category:
Best: FDR*, Lincoln, LBJ

Worst: Jackson, Buchanan, Bush (Dubya), Reagan, Johnson, Nixon (the good things people cite to defend Nixon's legacy compared are attributable to Democrats in the House/Senate, not Dick), Trump (yes he is among the worst).

America's had a lot of terrible presidents.
 

Madness80

Member
Feb 28, 2018
161
Lincoln was about saving the union. It just so happened he freed the slaves in doing so. He would have kept slavery around if it meant saving the union.

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

There's also

" "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races," he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust. ,"
from his 4th debate.

He did back peddle on blacks having the right to vote though.

He was also a big believer in colonization. Free the slaves...but send them back to Africa or central america.

I agree with the dude who said you can't be a good president in a bad country.

Also, to not completely derail - Jackson, Johnson, GWB, Trump (soon enough)
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Trump definitely feels bad in the present, but ultimately, I think Bush and Reagan will wind up being worse than him unless he does something absolutely, truly egregious. The War in Iraq and the AIDS pandemic are worse than anything he's done.
 
Oct 25, 2017
42
Texas
Worst in modern times was Obama.
cPEMIn7.gif
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,853
Orlando, FL
I would say Woodrow Wilson was the worst. He campaigned on staying out of WWI, just to join it months later. He was also an old school, jim crow racist.

He jailed his critics and people who pacifists.
He instituted a draft for young americans to fight and die in a war that was not our concern.

Seriously, fuck that guy.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
Trump definitely feels bad in the present, but ultimately, I think Bush and Reagan will wind up being worse than him unless he does something absolutely, truly egregious. The War in Iraq and the AIDS pandemic are worse than anything he's done.

We're talking about someone whose initial reaction to 9/11 was to be happy that the WTC wasn't the tallest building in NYC anymore.
Be thankful that he hasn't been president during a crisis like that.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Going into history looking to find power levels is a bad mindset. I wish my colleagues wouldn't engender it.


Considering that. While it might be a bit hypocritical, I'll point out Jackson basically created American democracy, if you're a pro democracy absolutist you shouldn't have him near the top of your worst of lists.



To be honest this is how I feel about Obama.



Yup. Generally speaking the US's problems come from its success as a state. After all it's the third oldest, and second oldest of real territorial states. It's done what states do pretty well.

I mean, it's hard not to put Jackson near the top of the "worst" list because he did this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

He also started the "Spoils system"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system

Which is still present in modern day politics and has basically ruined many aspects of our democracy.

Both of those are terrible things that are hard to look past at whatever "good" things he might have done.

He also made his wealth through slavery and was an anti-abolitionist.
 
Last edited:

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I would say Woodrow Wilson was the worst. He campaigned on staying out of WWI, just to join it months later. He was also an old school, jim crow racist.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...res-why/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6e172c56c21f

3. The allies didn't just fear Germany — they were wary of rising American power

When the fighting stopped in 1918, London and Paris weren't concerned just about containing postwar Germany. They also cast a wary eye at the United States, the partner whose entry swung the war in their favor but also a partner who stood to take on an increasing role in determining strategy if the war continued into German territory.

Already dependent on U.S. financing, the Entente believed its role at the peace talks would be further subordinated to Washington if the war effort relied more heavily on American dollars, dreadnoughts and doughboys. If the Entente could credibly claim the lion's share of work bringing the Germans to the table — as they could in 1918 — they stood a better chance of retaining their empires and enjoying the spoils of war (read: reparations and conquests).

But if they went for Lloyd George's knockout blow, they risked losing their own positions in the global hierarchy to Wilson's radical vision for reshaping the global order, which foresaw the humbling of European imperialism before the unparalleled financial and military might of the United States. Continuing the war with a more powerful American partner might bring about Wilson's desired "peace without victory" — with that victory snatched away from a fully exhausted Entente. Precisely because a United States that was more powerful in Europe couldn't be denied a larger say in strategy and in the negotiation of a final peace treaty, the Entente powers gave up on their dreams of inflicting a total defeat on Germany.

I don't know how accepted this is by historians but here's an analysis that says the Allies back off Germany mostly to avoid letting America take credit (and thus expand their influence).
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,933
John Quincy Adams had an alligator, a pool table, and went skinny dipping in the Potomac until some kids stole his clothes. He deserves to be up there just for that
 

jackissocool

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
738
Ohio
Lol, what? Conspiracy theories?
How crazy that a man who presided over COINTELPRO; whose FBI killed Fred Hampton and other black radicals and constantly worked to sabotage King through harassment, infiltration, blackmail, and letters demanding he commit suicide; and who was determined by a court case in the 90s to have orchestrated the killing killed the world's most prominent civil rights leader, most hated man in America, when that man began to vocally denounce capitalism and the military! Did you know that the American government is in fact capable of great evil? LBJ was no friend to blacks or the civil rights movement. He was a despicable racist, war criminal, and would-be-despot who crushed radical political opposition through imprisonment and assassination.
 

TehOh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
205
Gothenburg, Sweden
Trump is piece of shit, but he isn't even the worst president of this century. That's Dubya.

Worst of all time? Probably Jackson.

Best? My vote would be FDR.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,900
Portland, OR
Worst in modern times was Obama. a waste of 8 years. Bush is up there, but to argue he's a war criminal is somewhat laughable considering he had overwhelming support from congress at the time to go to war.
Does modern times only include the time you were alive? Because I find it difficult to believe that anyone over the age of 9 would consider Obama worse than GWB in any conceivable context.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Best is probably FDR and you still have to overlook the internment camps and some other hideous shit. Worst? Jackson, but Dubya is up there. Reagan too. I actually think that Reagan's impact was longer-lived and far more negative. In 30-40 years he'll be properly credited for the death of the American middle class.

Worst in modern times was Obama. a waste of 8 years. Bush is up there, but to argue he's a war criminal is somewhat laughable considering he had overwhelming support from congress at the time to go to war.

...

Did Congress set the Bush administration's policy of torturing prisoners of war? Did Congress tell the administration to falsify evidence of WMD and links to 9-11 as a pretense to war?

I think there's an argument that Obama was an awful president (and a war criminal in his own right!) but worse than Bush? You are out of your fucking gourd.
 

Joe_Bush

Member
Oct 27, 2017
277
Kansas
I don't really think there could be a "good" president. With that amount of power and influence over a country so powerful and influential, even the best president's going to be dealing with truly heinous shit. Like, I think FDR did some good, but he also oversaw mass racial internment, for instance. JFK only got like the two years before his head exploded and still got the Bay of Pigs debacle under his belt. I don't want to call any American president "the best"

I admit I have very little experience in studying the nineteenth century in the United States, so while I understand that Polk, Buchanon, Pierce, and Jackson are poorly regarded, I don't think I have the fullest understanding of why and I need to do more work to get a sense of why that is. But giving the amount of destruction that came at his hands, I'd argue that it's George W. Bush. The ripples of Bush's presidency - both wars, the attempts to illegalize gay marriage, the focus on English Only education, the NCLBs, and the economic crash that happened at the end of his presidency still have significant effects on our current lives. Even when I think of my most significant complaints regarding Obama (the relentless drone strikes, the deportations, the continuance of Middle Eastern wars), they can't be separated from Bush. Many of the most awful aspects of the Trump presidency I think could stem back to Bush as well.

and he shares a last name with me. Going through school during that administration with this name sucked
 

Shane M

Avenger
Jan 1, 2018
684
Thorold, Ontario, Canada
I want to say FDR but the Japanese internment camps and the signing of the Manhattan Project are huge blights on his record. As the other leftists in this thread have said, there are no good presidents.
 

Wolven Hammer

Member
Feb 26, 2018
1,548
Los Angeles, California
Best: Lincoln, Roosevelt 1, Roosevelt 2, Clinton.

Worst: Trump, Reagan, Jackson, Nixon. Bonus: Cheney.

Edit: If I have to pick one and one:

Best: Lincoln.

Worst: Jackson. In the modern context, it's Reagan.
 

Rory

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,159
Most people have a myopic view of history in general so it's not surprising people are saying Trump. Especially if they didn't live as adults during GWB's reign. Most modern presidents post FDR and LBJ have been slowly dismantling all safety nets that have been put up post WW2.

The USA is pretty much a failed state.
You always have to look at it from historical context. Did they know better back then? What was the cultural context? What was acceptable? Im not trying to justify past presidents actions, it doesnt make their actions less wrong.

Given that humanity should learn from its mistakes, Trump should have learned from the past.

There was a wall in Germany, and I wouldnt say it has helped its countries developments. We have had a Hitler who forced minorities into camps and seperated parents from children.

The fact that he ignores the past, is ignorant for the present (climate change does not exist) and literally does not care about the future (Im not president anymore by then) is more than qualifying him for worst president in US history.

And that's not yet considering his unpredictability (equals no security), twisted world view (fake news, turning and twisting things as it suits him) and simply not existing interest in politics (leaving political meetings to relatives, not attending important events due to rain etc.).

And just a small reminder: We somehow managed to dodge WW3, yes. Im still not sure how.

However: Trump almost provoked it more than once with his aggressive statements towards North Korea.
 

MrMephistoX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
Lyndon Johnson has a lot of good on his resume, despite Vietnam.
He is mently incapable of fulfilling the role president. He is borderline illiterate, doesn't even read his daily briefings, and everyday he further erodes the rule of law. There is a strong case that he is about as worthless as post-stroke Wilson.

I kind of have to agree in saying that Trump has been pretty ineffective overall because of his incompetence so, in the long run, I don't think he'll be the worst in terms of long term damage to the country. It's aggravating but most of the damage he's done has been verbal, which while aggravating isn't as bad as Jackson. I'd argue that Trump supporters are worse than Trumps deeds themselves. What you really have to watch out for is someone with a brain like Pence.
 

Rory

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,159
I kind of have to agree in saying that Trump has been pretty ineffective overall because of his incompetence so, in the long run, I don't think he'll be the worst in terms of long term damage to the country.
We are talking about a president for which the citizen need to add disclaimer like these:

He's a shitty, awful person who didn't intentionally kill gay people (that we know of anyway).
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
I mean, it's hard not to put Jackson near the top of the "worst" list because he did this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

He also started the "Spoils system"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system

Which is still present in modern day politics and has basically ruined many aspects of our democracy.

Both of those are terrible things that are hard to look past at whatever "good" things he might have done.

He also made his wealth through slavery and was an anti-abolitionist.

I'm aware of what he did. Might want to look at what I posted again. I didn't take the position that he was good.
 

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
2,809
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend the book "How to Fight Presidents" by Daniel O'Brien.
It's hilarious AND instructive.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I'm hard pressed to say Lincoln given his views and actions against Native Americans. I understand and appreciate the importance of him in regards to the liberation of black people from the institution of slavery, but I can't overlook his complicitness in the continued disenfranchisement of Native Americans. Similarly, I'm hesitant to suggest FDR because while I love the New Deal, again, internment camps. And, well, I heard he genuinely just was out and out bigoted against Asians and particularly the Japanese outside of the racist internment of the Japanese, sssoooo yeah.

I'd reasonably argue that Obama has been our best president. Has he done shitty things? Yes. All presidents since WW2 have been war criminals to some extent. But the amount of good he's done has been notable. And all of the presidents who never did anything bad also tended to be pretty lame in terms of implementing positive change.

I'm not sure if Jackson or Trump is worse to be honest. But, really, fuck Andrew Relaxin' Jackson, as my history teacher in 11th grade liked calling him.
 

Rory

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,159
Not really a disclaimer. I was clarifying that Trump has not done anything as bad as the likes of Reagan (yet). He just has the capacity to. He is perhaps the worst person, relative to his time, who was a President.
Are you sure? I mean Trump is a walking lie, Im pretty certain the question is not has he but when will we find out.
 

SaveWeyard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,540
For best, I'll throw in Garfield, partly because he wasn't around long enough to fuck anything up (due to a crazed office seeker who was denied by the one reform Garfield was able to get through for civil service).

I know it's a pointless hypothetical, but what if Garfield had been able to serve a full 2 terms in office?