Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

JaeCryo

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,848
I was reading a second wave feminist book on feminism in marxist movement and it frequently discussed ultraleft vs. reactionary left, especially in early marxist movments leading up to and surrounding Leninism. I was wondering if there was a more modern summary of the ultraleft in a modern context. I try to be nonsectarian because I believe that Marxism, like any other scientific approach to the aspects of nature they seek to uncover, is a system of addressing issues rather than having a presupposed model of a system and then fitting already existing systems into it, which is unscientific. However, being someone who believes in the abolishment of the state, borders, money, and frankly any social institution which institutes power structures, it seems to be closest to what I believe, but I understand it's a dirty word in some contexts.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,974
Horseshoe theory is the liberal’s favorite conduit for gaslighting the left. They treat it like it’s fundamentally sound and objectively logical, but it’s patently reductive and maliciously slanderous.
“Bernie and Bernie stans are CRAAAYZAAAH and JUST LIKE TRUMP!”

Me:
IN CONCLUSION! Bebe Rexha needs to endorse Bernie just like Cardi. Then they’ll create a bop that will top the charts and earn Bernie the victory.
Horseshoe theory is the liberal’s favorite conduit for gaslighting the left. They treat it like it’s fundamentally sound and objectively logical, but it’s actually patently reductive and maliciously slanderous. They want any means to compare us to those mass shooting racists to shut down leftist critique.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,717
The Gay Rat Association
There is an inherent privilege, I feel, in being able to feel concerned about a candidate in a country where the most they could realistically do is create stronger welfare and socialized healthcare/college.

And that’s a BIG maybe. America is very much a capitalist nation, and will continue to be.

Meanwhile, there are people being caged and separated from their children, shooters popping up to kill people on a daily basis (some of them to specifically kill brown people), police consistently killing black people, Hawaiians having to stave off colonizers (again), Puerto Ricans having to fight for welfare scraps and money hungry banks.

The concern, and consequent interest in creating parallels to Trump, tells a story of where many American interests lie—sequestered by those with access and stability.
 
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DrSlek

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,743
Sometimes I wonder if a General Strike is something that could even happen in Neo-Liberal countries like the US, UK and Australia anymore. The last time one happened in Australia was 102 years ago.

Edit: Lots of bans being handed out for guillotine references in a new anti-capitalism thread.
 
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Mekanos

Banned
Oct 17, 2018
6,722
Sometimes I wonder if a General Strike is something that could even happen in Neo-Liberal countries like the US, UK and Australia anymore. The last time one happened in Australia was 102 years ago.

Edit: Lots of bans being handed out for guillotine references in a new anti-capitalism thread.
I got banned for posting a guillotine a while ago, lol. Really made me realize how liberal this place is.
 

DrSlek

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,743
I got banned for posting a guillotine a while ago, lol. Really made me realize how liberal this place is.
As I've mentioned before, I don't have confidence in popular uprisings being able to implement a stable form of socialism and I'm very much against capital punishment, but that said I don't think I'd have even a second of empathy if the Koch brothers were dragged out of their mansions and shot in the street.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,262
This thread's probably gonna be moving slow because of it, that's how many people got banned. We really should caution people to... just not with the guillotine references. Way too easy to catch a ban, and honestly, it's probably just bad tactics/optics. The fash is ascendant and is looking for a reason to criminalize the left. It sounds ridiculous to think that clearly hyperbolic posts like these could be used as examples in a legislative crusade against the left... but it's not really any more stupid than trying to pretend antifa's a single group and then labeling that a hate group, now is it.

If you're a genuine revsoc or insurrectionist, the worst thing you can possibly do right now is post that kind of sentiment where just anybody can see it. You can talk shit about propaganda of the deed or praise it all day and night, but one thing's certain and that's the fact that it's significantly better than the propaganda of things we say we're going to do but probably don't intend to do but some of us might wish we could but probably never will. Especially given this venue. Reset "games could never exist under socialism" ERA might not be the place for that to be effective agitprop.

If you're NOT a genuine revsoc... the visual of the guillotine really shouldn't have any allure for you in the first place. The Terror fuckin' sucked.
 
Nov 14, 2017
1,028
New Atheism has its own sacrificial altars.

I have a bad habit of reading stuff out of order. :P I'd like to find more info, though. Most people assume our current system evolved because it was naturally more efficient and productive. I'd like to find more evidence that it was partially shaped by power structures acting in their interests at the expense of others.
As a young journalist Marx was writing about the enclosure of forest estates in Germany and the expulsion/prosecution of the peasantry who attempted to continue their traditional land use patterns; it's often seen as a sort of turning point in his career. What's important to stress however is what took place wasn't necessarily as direct as capitalists forcing people to become their wage labourers. Rather we see varied and gradual processes in a number of contexts creating conditions that enable the existence of a working class, but this is still distinct from the sort of teleological efficiency narrative you mentioned.

In addition to Marx, E.P. Thompson's The Making of the English Working Class and Polanyi's The Great Transformation are some of the big ones on this topic (at least for a European context). Obviously all of these works are varying degrees of dated, disputed etc...
 

Mekanos

Banned
Oct 17, 2018
6,722
This thread's probably gonna be moving slow because of it, that's how many people got banned. We really should caution people to... just not with the guillotine references. Way too easy to catch a ban, and honestly, it's probably just bad tactics/optics. The fash is ascendant and is looking for a reason to criminalize the left. It sounds ridiculous to think that clearly hyperbolic posts like these could be used as examples in a legislative crusade against the left... but it's not really any more stupid than trying to pretend antifa's a single group and then labeling that a hate group, now is it.

If you're a genuine revsoc or insurrectionist, the worst thing you can possibly do right now is post that kind of sentiment where just anybody can see it. You can talk shit about propaganda of the deed or praise it all day and night, but one thing's certain and that's the fact that it's significantly better than the propaganda of things we say we're going to do but probably don't intend to do but some of us might wish we could but probably never will. Especially given this venue. Reset "games could never exist under socialism" ERA might not be the place for that to be effective agitprop.

If you're NOT a genuine revsoc... the visual of the guillotine really shouldn't have any allure for you in the first place. The Terror fuckin' sucked.
Eh, it's only three bans and it's just for one week.

I don't think anybody is serious about guillotine posting, it's just a hyperbolic way for leftists to express their frustration at the ruling class. Liberals are however perfectly willing to sit around and wait while climate change and economic instability lead to a new age of fascism. The wealthy are just going to build superdomes or whatever while everyone else dies.

I got told "eat the rich" is okay but guillotine posting is not. I guess hyperbole is fine when people don't want to be reminded of the context of a 200 year old revolution.

We need something new
See above, lol.
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,262
Eh, it's only three bans and it's just for one week.

I don't think anybody is serious about guillotine posting, it's just a hyperbolic way for leftists to express their frustration at the ruling class. Liberals are however perfectly willing to sit around and wait while climate change and economic instability lead to a new age of fascism. The wealthy are just going to build superdomes or whatever while everyone else dies.

I got told "eat the rich" is okay but guillotine posting is not. I guess hyperbole is fine when people don't want to be reminded of the context of a 200 year old revolution.
Fair enough. I'd say, given the context I've read it in, there's some people who are genuinely kinda thirsty for guillotines. We don't tolerate tankies here, so it's not as widespread here, but in places like r/LSC I've definitely seen a bunch of people going WAY beyond guillotines, especially before Reddit gave a shit about quarantines.

A heads up on the whole "the wealthy are gonna build superdomes" thing though. The rich are going to try, and they're going to fail. Ultimately, the rich are shockingly incompetent at trying to create functional enclaves outside of society. If you ever doubt that the rich are parasitic, really give a look at how they function outside of the society they prey on. They hardly do at all.

Everyone remembers that one article where they were trying to plan out how they were going to survive the apocalypse, and honestly? Their plans are dogshit. People trying to automate away apocalyptic survival are in for a nasty surprise. Even the sci-fi stuff is dogshit. If the rich want to escape the dying planet for Mars, they're going to learn a harsh and frankly nightmarish lesson about risk modeling. Put frankly, if the multiply redundant beauty of Earth isn't enough to save us, a thin line of technological replacements aren't going to last twenty years. Using drones to protect yourself as a continuous measure is similarly idiotic.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,717
The Gay Rat Association
You shouldn’t be posting public sentiments of violence on a forum that’s full of people with mental illness and minorities anyways.

You might blackpill someone or worse.

Secondly, this place is...observed...by deplorables and the more you signal sentiments like that, the more eyes that concentrate here. Then no one will be safe.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
17,137

Oh man someone actually used the 'the more stuff the government does the more socialist-y it is' argument in 2019
 

Ogodei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,370
North Jackson High
To Joseph Smith's credit, copying Masonic rites (or establishing your own lodge) is kind of what you DID in the Nineteenth century if you had a new spiritual movement. The Rosicrucians did it. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn did it. The Pansophers did it (inasmuch as they're even separate from the Rosicrucians). There are precedents into the eighteenth century for this vis a vis the Oculists, and holdovers into the Twentieth in Rudolph Steiner's lodges.

As I mentioned before in my little blurb on Fourierism, there's an odd connection between occultism and utopian socialism. And there's an odd connection between Joseph Smith and occultism as well. Did you know scrying was considered to be a normal and acceptable spiritual practice even for the lay-worshipper in the early Mormon church? They even have Joseph Smith's scrying stones in a Mormon museum somewhere. His methodology bears a resemblance to the one employed by Edward Kelley, John Dee's assistant, aside from the fact that Mormon scrying for some reason prefers opaque stones rather than reflective ones. That's no longer common Mormon practice.

It's really hard to judge Joseph Smith's authenticity or sincerity in producing Mormon doctrine. But I am perpetually fascinated by how Mormonism's roots had such distinct practices and strange attempts at really utopian ambitions... and then somehow that got kinda lost.
Establishment religions can't be utopian, or at all opposed to the public order. Once Mormons found their place to live in peace most of the weirder things (bar polygamy, which fits into the patriarchal structure of wider society anyway) went by the wayside, and you're only left with quirks that are still somewhat mainstream (like temperance). Once you find your niche and a bit of political power to go with it, ambitious doctrine goes bye bye.
 

Mekanos

Banned
Oct 17, 2018
6,722
Glad to see some of the regulars in this thread hash it out in the "liberalism bubble" thread. Lots of really good discussion there.
 

thepotatoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,842
Denver
As I've mentioned before, I don't have confidence in popular uprisings being able to implement a stable form of socialism and I'm very much against capital punishment, but that said I don't think I'd have even a second of empathy if the Koch brothers were dragged out of their mansions and shot in the street.
These days, property damage and obstruction of movement seems to be enough to strike fear in the hearts of the rich anyway. Not much need to go further until they escalate it.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,974
Glad to see some of the regulars in this thread hash it out in the "liberalism bubble" thread. Lots of really good discussion there.
As opposed to the Bernie and biased media thread, yeah that one was cool. I like to see leftist era stretch their legs rather than have to play defense from a bunch of obtuse disingenuous posts.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,009
The user is Machado, the community tried but last I heard he's still stuck in Venezuela.

It was a big thread back on the old forum and a lot of people were rooting for him.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,009
DSA has an intersectionality problem because about a quarter of it are minority leftists and 3/4ths it are white leftists. (Numbers from my ass)

Historically, white leftists have had a "race doesn't matter, only class" problem which is offputting to minorities. A lot of that still exists but it's gotten better in recent years. DSA being a big tent caucus means you have a lot of class purists alongside a lot of intersectional socialists.

Some leftists are also white supremacists/in denial about being white supremacists.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,974

Read this thread and tell me what his damage is? Is the DSA having an intersectionality problem? Someone come get their boy.
There’s been times in history when union and socialist movements in America failed to form solidarity with minorities and hobbled themselves into inevitable failure and it’s because of dense folks like this.

In this case representation matters doubly so for people in his position. Having DSA in your handle and saying these things... extremely bad look.

How any supposedly learned modern socialist can still be this blind is telling of how deeply overriding white identity and racism is in America.
 
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Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
17,137
DSA has an intersectionality problem because about a quarter of it are minority leftists and 3/4ths it are white leftists. (Numbers from my ass)

Historically, white leftists have had a "race doesn't matter, only class" problem which is offputting to minorities. A lot of that still exists but it's gotten better in recent years. DSA being a big tent caucus means you have a lot of class purists alongside a lot of intersectional socialists.

Some leftists are also white supremacists/in denial about being white supremacists.
Yeah I mean a lot of the people replying are full parentheses putting stefan molyneux, retweeting cunts that are hardly leftists. Not to say you can't be a leftist and also be a racist, white supremacist etc. but the replying people at least just seem to love shitting on minorities whatever the side.
 
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Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,717
The Gay Rat Association
It’s an odd occurrence considering how much transformative work black people have been doing for YEARS. Even before any of us were born.

There’s something to be said about the voices that gain notoriety/capital in socialist circles. If I wanted discussions centered around white voices, I’d have my choices of being a full blown conservative capitalist or a liberal capitalist.

Don’t want to see the same thing even in discussions that center around freedom and fairness—which are subjects that black, indigenous and any other minority NEED to have a seat at the table for.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,009
Disliking capitalism/being socialist doesn't mean you accept diversity, it's as simple as that.

Holy fucking shit this dude:

What a total assclown.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,009
Also ignoring black socialists in history is not uncommon. Most white liberals who yell "intersectionality" today probably don't know that intersectionality as a concept was developed by black feminist. Even a lot of black pundits are not aware of the streaks of socialism in the civil rights movement.


The irony of cheering on intersectionality and capitalism completely escapes these people because ideology for them is not about respecting history, it's about tribalism and team sports.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,009
I don't personally care but it's an interesting launch off point to discuss macro-trends in the DSA/US-socialist scene.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,717
The Gay Rat Association
Well they’re loudly broadcasting that they’re DSA, and even have the little rose emoji. So it seemed pertinent for me to ask who this person was and why they were saying the the things they were. And more importantly, which kind of platform (if any), the DSA was giving this person.

I mean this is kinda the socialist OT, and there’s a lot of American members, so...
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,587
Having never seen 'em before, I suspect they're a meme/troll account riffing off of Cernovich. Wouldn't trust 'em with my car keys.