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Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%

  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%

  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%

  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%

  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%

  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%

  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%
  • Total voters
    1,043
Reader mode

Deleted member 721

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10,416
Rupetta said:
Reposting this from OT, as you might need some good SocDem news here also from time to time - and I was told in the OT by a Finn that she's (Marin, the new PM) "practically a communist", so:



Here is her ideological mapping (according to the main election engine) on left - right, conservative - liberal axis (Rinne is the old PM who stepped down last week, Lindtman was the SocDem who ran against Marin as new PM):
DIGI_5_seuraajaehdokkaat_arvokartalla.svg
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if anti-communists hate something its generaly a good sign to me, she seems like a cool person
 

Deleted member 721

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Oct 25, 2017
10,416
socialism ot after accepting bloomberg job
3ewu4i.png


but seriously to work for bloomberg its a good way to help bernie and warren to take biden votes, and that salary is great.
 
saenima

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Take Bloomberg's money and do as little as possible. Donate to Sanders as well. Seems like a winning strategy.
 
Prolepro

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
I swear to god stuff like that Pelosi shit today is what drives me up the fucking wall when we get into the discussion of "settling" for and putting up with establishment bullshit in the face of Trump and frankly any Republican action in general. Because, yes, I suppose in the most summarily holistic sense, anyone is better than the current norm, but THIS is what that means. Shit like (purposefully) unknown hundreds of thousands of innocent lives being purged for some dumbfuck's ego in a fabricated war, thousands of American boys including people in my family who fought and killed and others who died for years over land that was taken weeks after they left, groups like ISIS forming and destabilizing an entire region for decades on top of the millions of human lives being displaced and ruined. Children getting their intestines ripped out of their abdomens by .50 caliber rounds and pregnant mothers being crushed by rubble from missiles. That shit is what you get for your consciousness to feel "clean" by settling for ANY name that happens to have a D next to it.

I really, REALLY fucking hope Im not forced to choose between grandpa touchy feely and fucking Cheetolini because Im at my wits end with this shit.
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
It really is kind of... I guess I find myself surprised at my own naivety, because part of me still finds myself shocked. She... knew. She knew from the beginning. She could have said or done something, anything at all, and much of it could have done a measurable good. Instead, she chose... absolutely nothing. Hundreds of thousands of dead. And nothing.

That's a callousness I have difficulty fathoming.
 
Prolepro

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
Deffers said:
It really is kind of... I guess I find myself surprised at my own naivety, because part of me still finds myself shocked. She... knew. She knew from the beginning. She could have said or done something, anything at all, and much of it could have done a measurable good. Instead, she chose... absolutely nothing. Hundreds of thousands of dead. And nothing.

That's a callousness I have difficulty fathoming.
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This is the shit that your grandkids scratch their head about in 8th grade history class 50 years from now, wondering "how those old dummies let something like this happen", same feeling you or I had reading about Vietnam or Venezuela or any episode of American imperialism.

Well, son, it was the politically soundest tactic at the time. Doesnt matter now 'cause most of those people are dead anway, and so are thousands of people their decisions affected, but at least they felt good about their own legacy at the time.
 
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,173
Bush is an evil imperialistic warlord responsible for destabilizing an entire region and getting millions killed but because he's polite and he paints liberals are happy to rehabilitate him.

The Bush Administration did far more damage to the world than the Trump Administration could ever dream of.

If there were any justice in this world, he'd be spending his days in a prison block.
 

Deleted member 721

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10,416
Mekanos said:
Bush is an evil imperialistic warlord responsible for destabilizing an entire region and getting millions killed but because he's polite and he paints liberals are happy to rehabilitate him.

The Bush Administration did far more damage to the world than the Trump Administration could ever dream of.

If there were any justice in this world, he'd be spending his days in a prison block.
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but he's friend with ellen degeneres, he cant be evil
 
TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I still ascribe alot of the Malice to Cheney and Rumsfeld.

Doesn't absolve Bush, he pulled the trigger but I want those two fuckers to burn harder. Bush might have thought he was doing "good" at first and then continued to fuck up. Cheney and Rummy knew they were doing evil and did it anyway.

And then those two evil chucklefucks went war profiteering for shits and giggles while commiting war crimes to make even more money.

What I'm saying is throw Bush in jail. Throw Cheney and Rummy into the depths of hell.
 
Quzar

Quzar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,166
Liberals should be educated on sartre. You are responsible for all actions you take, voting for candidates who both want to continue war is a responsibility placed on you. If you object to that choice why are you then angry at the person pointing out these things and not those placing the choice on you?
 
Gio

Gio

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
837
Manila


I'm of 2 minds about this. On one hand this is obviously another example of the elite using the media machine to lash out at the left. On the other hand, this is absolutely a story worth investigating further. It's just disingenuous coming from WaPo.
 
TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Gio said:


I'm of 2 minds about this. On one hand this is obviously another example of the elite using the media machine to lash out at the left. On the other hand, this is absolutely a story worth investigating further. It's just disingenuous coming from WaPo.
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How dare she work a job!
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
1,874
christ...made the mistake of reading through the Pelosi and Obama thread - our white liberal brothers really doing their best to discipline any POC with socialist leaning.
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Mekanos said:
Bush is an evil imperialistic warlord responsible for destabilizing an entire region and getting millions killed but because he's polite and he paints liberals are happy to rehabilitate him.

The Bush Administration did far more damage to the world than the Trump Administration could ever dream of.

If there were any justice in this world, he'd be spending his days in a prison block.
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The problem is that I really don't think you can come up with a reasonable criteria that toss Bush to jail for his war crimes and don't also put Obama there.
And that's why you will never see that shit happen.
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I think it's the US's foreign policy first and foremost, it doesn't really change all that much between Democrats and Republicans and it's always fucking awful.
I think some personal consequences or at least the fear of them could help, but honestly the first thing that need to happen is for people to actually care about that shit rather than treating it as a way to win partisan points.

You've seen it with the war on terror which continued pretty much as is under Obama but almost everyone on the left stop caring once it stopped being a way to maybe get electoral gains for the Democrats.
 

Deleted member 4346

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Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Bush and co. had a policy of torture on the books. If you're the next president, and you don't do anything about an official policy of torture by your predecessor, then you lose all credibility. Obama himself is guilty of war crimes but Bush was on another level.

I think some of it comes back to class consciousness. These people come from a few schools, they are known to each other, they are connected professionally and even personally, in some cases, but even beyond that they are united by wealth and power. They are not going to allow each other, by and large, to be held accountable even for the worst abuses. And then the other part is self-interest, because Obama knew that, had he been followed by a Republican president, he might have been put on trial for his own war crimes.
 

Deleted member 14459

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Oct 27, 2017
1,874
Obama represents liberal imperialism, a slant that needed to appeal to a different breed of hawks - the same streak our hosts here on Era are devoted to. To paraphrase Richard Seymour; in any country where rulers have opted for empire, there has always developed among the intellectual class a strong pro-imperial consensus, with liberals its most vocal defender. If you have not read it, his book Liberal defense of murder, is verygood: https://www.versobooks.com/books/1203-the-liberal-defence-of-murder . Unlike other imperialists including Bush, for liberal imperialists the belief that brown people are inferior is merely implicit, but always present.
 
Mekanos

Mekanos

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Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,173
Apharmd said:
Bush and co. had a policy of torture on the books. If you're the next president, and you don't do anything about an official policy of torture by your predecessor, then you lose all credibility. Obama himself is guilty of war crimes but Bush was on another level.

I think some of it comes back to class consciousness. These people come from a few schools, they are known to each other, they are connected professionally and even personally, in some cases, but even beyond that they are united by wealth and power. They are not going to allow each other, by and large, to be held accountable even for the worst abuses. And then the other part is self-interest, because Obama knew that, had he been followed by a Republican president, he might have been put on trial for his own war crimes.
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On the other hand, democrats seem gung-ho about holding Trump accountable. Probably because he is perceived as a greater threat to American decorum and stability than Bush was (nevermind that the public perception of Americans at the international stage was in the toilet during the Bush Administration).
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Mekanos said:
On the other hand, democrats seem gung-ho about holding Trump accountable. Probably because he is perceived as a greater threat to American decorum and stability than Bush was (nevermind that the public perception of Americans at the international stage was in the toilet during the Bush Administration).
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They only thing we have seen them holding Trump accountable for is going after Biden's son (and even then doing it in a process that they know will not yield any personal consequences for Trump).
I mean, he obviously broke a bunch of laws and shat on the constitution doing that, but I don't think we lacked evidence for pretty damn serious crimes he did before that.
 
Luminish

Luminish

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Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
They should also impeach for child separation and enriching himself in various gross ways, but Obama did some of the same to asylum seekers and most dems in Congress are guilty of enriching themselves in gross ways.
 
Luminish

Luminish

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Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Televator said:
Another take, which I agree with, would be: IIRC, Warren came from a conservative background, and her political alignment has likely changed substantially since her time as a consultant.
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Her story is very believable that she changed because she learned poor people are poor because the rich screw them and personal responsibility for their financial situation is bullshit.

It's just too bad she didn't also come into contact with people around the world whose lives are ruined by US intervention.
 
saenima

saenima

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Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Imperialism, war profiteering, support of Israel and denial of a class struggle are probably the only completely bipartisan policies in the US. Also supported by the entire media propaganda apparatus. There is no mainstream dissenting voice on any of it.
 

Deleted member 7130

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thepotatoman said:
Her story is very believable that she changed because she learned poor people are poor because the rich screw them and personal responsibility for their financial situation is bullshit.

It's just too bad she didn't also come into contact with people around the world whose lives are ruined by US intervention.
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That is true, I agree
 
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,173
saenima said:
Imperialism, war profiteering, support of Israel and denial of a class struggle are probably the only completely bipartisan policies in the US. Also supported by the entire media propaganda apparatus. There is no mainstream dissenting voice on any of it.
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Our media sucks eggs, it's true, but god damn, following the UK election, I am amazed how many of their papers are just rags.

Literally printing fanfic and call it journalism. Just unbelievable.
 
saenima

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Mekanos said:
Our media sucks eggs, it's true, but god damn, following the UK election, I am amazed how many of their papers are just rags.

Literally printing fanfic and call it journalism. Just unbelievable.
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Oh trust me, i know :(

UK media is shameful as well, much of it is marginally better than Fox, while the better ones are merely inoffensive to power.
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
thepotatoman said:
Fox News is basically a UK import. Rupert Murdoch is the cause for all this, and he owns a bigger portion of UK media than of US media.
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Capitalism is the cause of this, rich people always had most of the media in their pocket, if it wasn't him it would have been someone else.
Reject the great garbage man theory!
 
Luminish

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Chikor said:
Capitalism is the cause of this, rich people always had most of the media in their pocket, if it wasn't him it would have been someone else.
Reject the great garbage man theory!
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No one person is a reason for a whole ideological movement, but it's obvious individuals have different skill sets and beliefs and that will have some reflection on history when relatively few have influence. Murdoch enabling Ailes shaped Fox News to be what it is separate from other rich guy news media. Like, you can't call CNN and Fox News to be the exact same thing, even if they have similarities.
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Eylos said:
this thread sounds weird to me, here in brazil there's more empty houses than homeless people, and i think thats true for lots of countries because of capitalism nature.
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It's like this in the US as well.
The number you hear is empty houses outnumber homeless people 6:1. I don't know how accurate is the measurement of empty houses in the US, but I think I have a fairly decent grasp on the US estimate homeless population, and I would not expect any numbers like that to be accurate. But by all serious estimates that I read it suggest it outnumber them by a lot.

It's also true in the EU, but I believe the estimates are 2:1 there.

Anyway, the issue they are trying to solve is home prices (and by extension, rent) which is a middle class to lower working class problem. Homeless people are generally not a few bucks away from being able to afford to rent a place, we're talking on people who are very very poor.
 

Deleted member 721

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Chikor said:
It's like this in the US as well.
The number you hear is empty houses outnumber homeless people 6:1. I don't know how accurate is the measurement of empty houses in the US, but I think I have a fairly decent grasp on the US estimate homeless population, and I would not expect any numbers like that to be accurate. But by all serious estimates that I read it suggest it outnumber them by a lot.

It's also true in the EU, but I believe the estimates are 2:1 there.

Anyway, the issue they are trying to solve is home prices (and by extension, rent) which is a middle class to lower working class problem. Homeless people are generally not a few bucks away from being able to afford to rent a place, we're talking on people who are very very poor.
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that wouldnt solve the problem, capitalism would normalize that situation to more people, you could make housing more affordably initialy, but even those types of homes would increase price with time more fast than the growth of the salary, sooner or later that always happens. Thats a temporary weak solution, to fight for better income and housing prices regulations is a better solution, but the only definitive solution is to destroy the system, imo.
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Eylos said:
that wouldnt solve the problem, capitalism would normalize that situation to more people, you could make housing more affordably initialy, but even those types of homes would increase price with time more fast than the growth of the salary, sooner or later that always happens. Thats a temporary weak solution, to fight for better income and housing prices regulations is a better solution, but the only definitive solution is to destroy the system, imo.
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American cities have specific problems that can be alleviated by better zoning, but yeah, those are not things that will address the fundamental problems.
This is more of a "I wish school teacher could afford to live in a city" type of thing than "end homelessness".
 
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