Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 59 14.4%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 32 7.8%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 20 4.9%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 8 2.0%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 156 38.1%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 105 25.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 29 7.1%

  • Total voters
    409

TheLucasLite

Member
Aug 27, 2018
1,227
Quite astonishing how in a face of a global pandemic, people will still chide you for "not being productive" even in a self-quarantine.

Capitalism has absolutely fried people's brains where if you aren't actively trying to make Number Go Up something must be wrong.
What's more astonishing perhaps is that I can't shake the urge from myself that I need to be more productive. Regardless of feeling like I should know better.
 

MaximumSpider

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,242
$1000 is not much but I'll take it. It's scary that it's not much though. This should be a monthly thing because we don't know how long this will last.
 

Mist

Love & Respect
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,324
I do enjoy being productive, but that can take different forms. Could be as simple as learning something new, or putting some new good habits into practice. Nothing wrong with simply surviving, though. Sometimes that's the best we can do.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,854
Ontario
Quarantine is a great place to get some reading done.

I got about 2 hours in before passing out for a nap

i know things look grim rn but i feel like I've been training for this my entire life.
 

DrSlek

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,105
Material conditions have forced everybody to rethink the structure of society to a large degree.
I think the bourgois will want to return to status quo ASAP, but I think there will be some major structural changes emerge from this.
 

Juan29.Zapata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,828
Colombia
I don't want UBI, corporations will just increase prices of everything and we'll be back at the beginning, just with a new coat of paint to say that social stuff is being done.

EDIT: But it is too damn ironic. Such strange times.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,734
We're pretty much self-quarantined here. This is gonna be a long while. Play some games, read, write... gotta just ride it out.
 

MaximumSpider

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,242
My job pretty much stepped its game up. No visitors for the next 30 days and temperature checks each time you go through that front door. If you’re a little sick you have to go home.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,734
Can't believe Dems are letting Republicans run to their left on UBI. Just embarrassing all around. This party is fucked.
 

xenocide

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,685
Vermont
Can't believe Dems are letting Republicans run to their left on UBI. Just embarrassing all around. This party is fucked.
I mean, we did have a candidate in the Dem Primary spend the last year advocating for a $1,000 UBI, and then Tulsi adapted it while her campaign is still technically running. On top of that, several Dems in the House and Senate floated the idea—it’s just more newsworthy when a Republican says it because their party is inherently opposed to that kind of government handout. We’ve seen formal plans from Bernie, Kamala, Joe Kennedy, and several other Dems in the last 24-48 hours.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,854
Ontario
I mean, we did have a candidate in the Dem Primary spend the last year advocating for a $1,000 UBI, and then Tulsi adapted it while her campaign is still technically running. On top of that, several Dems in the House and Senate floated the idea—it’s just more newsworthy when a Republican says it because their party is inherently opposed to that kind of government handout. We’ve seen formal plans from Bernie, Kamala, Joe Kennedy, and several other Dems in the last 24-48 hours.
All of that to say that they cant get on board with one plan and are scrambling because they got flanked by the Republicans.

which is the dems in every crisis
 

xenocide

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,685
Vermont
All of that to say that they cant get on board with one plan and are scrambling because they got flanked by the Republicans.

which is the dems in every crisis
We could just compare the response to the market tanking to perfectly display priorities. Republicans wanted nothing but tax cuts and subsidies for corporations, Dems pushed for paid leave, expanding unemployment, and expanding SNAP benefits. Yes the final bill has some flaws, but it’s obvious Dems focused on the working class and made minimal concessions to get something beneficial. I think they’ll likely coalesce around some kind of temporary UBI-style program, and fully expect at least half the Republicans in Congress to vote against it while Dems all vote for it.

The real interesting thing will be in the post recovery time frame when we see if some of these programs stay in place or if they go away. Can’t really put popular social programs back into the bottle once people have seen their benefits.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,854
Ontario
We could just compare the response to the market tanking to perfectly display priorities. Republicans wanted nothing but tax cuts and subsidies for corporations, Dems pushed for paid leave, expanding unemployment, and expanding SNAP benefits. Yes the final bill has some flaws, but it’s obvious Dems focused on the working class and made minimal concessions to get something beneficial. I think they’ll likely coalesce around some kind of temporary UBI-style program, and fully expect at least half the Republicans in Congress to vote against it while Dems all vote for it.

The real interesting thing will be in the post recovery time frame when we see if some of these programs stay in place or if they go away. Can’t really put popular social programs back into the bottle once people have seen their benefits.
I'll tell you what i saw as an outside observer
the republicans prioritized their primary concern and forced the democrats to take a deal on a completely hollow sick leave plan
then they came out before the democrats to call for a personal stimulus and now there's like seven or eight competing plans with no time table for implementation

dems in disarray and Rs already preemptively taking credit for the stimulus

them not folding during the shutdown has made everyone forget that the default state of dems is being owned
 

xenocide

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,685
Vermont
I'll tell you what i saw as an outside observer
the republicans prioritized their primary concern and forced the democrats to take a deal on a completely hollow sick leave plan
then they came out before the democrats to call for a personal stimulus and now there's like seven or eight competing plans with no time table for implementation

dems in disarray and Rs already preemptively taking credit for the stimulus

them not folding during the shutdown has made everyone forget that the default state of dems is being owned
I suppose the fundamental disagreement here is that I think getting a majority of what you want when trying to help people is better than refusing to compromise and risking getting none of what you want. This situation and the impending economic fallout is going to massively cripple the working class, so anything they can do to help working class families—even if it means unpopular limitations—is a net benefit. I acknowledged the bill wasn’t perfect, but if the option is the bill they passed or nothing, I’ll take that bill 10 out of 10 times.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,854
Ontario
I suppose the fundamental disagreement here is that I think getting a majority of what you want when trying to help people is better than refusing to compromise and risking getting nothing of what you want. This situation and the impending economic fallout is going to massively cripple the working class, so anything they can do to help working class families—even if it means unpopular limitations—is a net benefit. I acknowledged the bill wasn’t perfect, but if the option is the bill they passed or nothing, I’ll take that bill 10 out of 10 times.
i'm not talking about the bill i'm taking about optics and issue management and how the democrats suck at it

you're just regurgitating talking points about the lesser of two evils and taking the best deal you can get

how closely are you reading the thread? this isn't about what was in the bill and that isn't really constructive to the conversation
 

Tracygill

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,826
The Left

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,252
Thinking about after the pandemic settles down (Hopefully sooner rather than later), I imagine there's going to be a lot more community-led efforts and localisation which has been previously opposed by the political Right. Stuff like renewable energy for all homes, rubbish collection, etc. I can't imagine those industries won't be affected by this.
 

Zackat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,838
Democrats suck so bad


That being said all these changes coming so rapidly is interesting. All the bullshit falls away when shit gets real like this I guess.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,854
Ontario
economists shook because unlike political economy their field doesn't teach them that America can always play the trump card of "and what are you going to do about it"
 

infinite

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,075
Like suspending rent, mortgages, tax etc payments during this crisis should be floated along with a UBI for a UBI to mean anything. Nobody is serious about this yet
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
17,734
I think what’s frustrating is, as a Bernie Bro, if Biden announced “I spoke with Sanders, and in exchange for him dropping out, I will adopt M4A, UBI, and debt forgiveness to my platform,” I would be stumping for Biden and telling everyone to vote for him. I think a lot of people right now are willing to compromise in order to save this country.

But Dems, the party of compromise, will die before compromising with the left.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,320
When you've spent decades chasing republicans to the right, is it any surprise they find it so easy to dance circles around you now that you find yourself in their court?
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,639
I'll just flat out say that 'compromising' to get 20% of a perhaps overly conservative estimate of the bare minimum is in no world good enough and effectively the same thing as nothing. Like isn't this the same shit moral reasoning that lead to dems funding the concentration camps? Like if we can convince ourselves that we're making concentration camps marginally better by funding them (and even if this isn't the case), we can then justify any further inaction to the nth degree because we supposedly did everything we can under the circumstances by just stupidly and blithely accepting the slanted and idiotic moral framing for some reason. Fucking lol.

Honestly I think 'compromise' where electoral politics is concerned is a gross misnomer, at least in this context. This isn't two people with approximately equal power and leverage coming to an equitable agreement through and by each other. It's the electorate using literally their only leverage to try to get the party supposedly meant to represent them to actually maybe listen to them sometime this generation. And with regards to this problem, if this era in politics can really teach us anything, it's that all of the pleas from the center on when or how might come an 'opportune' time to finally push for these things are absolute unmitigated bullshit.
 
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Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
1,116
There goes the November election.
Astonished more people aren't terrified by things like this. It's the right move, obviously, but it (and the Democratic response to the crisis more broadly) is a sign of pretty frightening possibilities. Trump suddenly out-lefting the Democrats in the economic response to the crisis while some people sit around finger wagging and "How dare you"ing over norms and naughty language could completely shatter how the Presidential election moves forward in ways the liberal imagination can't seem to comprehend.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,320
Fascists co-opting social policies while centrists are steadfast in inaction and continually fight against the left. I really wish this was a scenario without terrible historical precedent
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,408
Once again capitalism is going to fall headlong into socialist/socialist-lite policies to save itself.